Management Company problem

Daragh86

I am having terrible problems with the management company of a small 4 unit apartment block. It's a long story so thanks to anyone who takes the time to read through it all!

My father bought an apartment through an estate agent who owned the other 3 units of a 4 unit building (the estate agent didn't own the unit in question at any stage). The same estate agent is a director and management agent of the management company in place. During the purchase of the property he never said, for sure, what the management fees would be but did say it'd be between 200-300 euro pa. After signing for the purchase of the unit the management company said the fees would be 600 euro pa. The apartment block is very basic, they have no lift, no bins, a very small yard and that's about it.

We asked for a breakdown of the fees before we would forward payment to which there was no response. We enquired on several occasions to no reply so fees weren't paid.

In Nov 2011 there was a leak into my fathers kitchen from the unit above (happened to be commercial unit used as offices). I rang the management agent (same person as the estate agent) to which he had no interest in the issue. I figured the problem was a blocked foul sewer pipe on the outside of the building which was backing up and making the office unit toilet overflow and leak into my father's apartment. I told this to the management agent, again he had no interest. Eventually after two weeks of this problem and with a destroyed kitchen, hall, skirting boards, carpets, kitchen units, etc. he finally out to fix the blocked pipe (30 minute job). At this stage the electricity had knocked off in the whole apartment other than the living room, no cooking facilities, etc for almost two weeks. The management agent brought out the insurance company as well as an independant claims assessor to lodge an insurance claim.

In mid dec 2011 (after weeks of chasing the management agent) he agreed to meet to sort out the insurance money. He informed me that there was a payment of 9000 euro made and he 'offered' my father 3200 euro. I asked to see the independant claims assessor report and the insurance report where I presume it would indicate how much money is to be allocated to each unit where damage had occured. He wouldn't co operate with this and continued to only offer 3200. In my opinion there was a lot more damage done to my father's apartment than 3200 and the management agent (who is also the director and estate agent) was trying to pocket the rest of the money.

I wrote several letters to which we got no reply. I eventually ended up giving in and paying the 600 euro management fees without questioning the breakdown in the hope that he'd pay out the insurance money but he didn't. He also didn't even acknowledge the money we sent and we didn't recieve a receipt as requested several times.

I checked out the management company accounts online where I discovered that the balance of the management company had not changed for 4 years which indicated that no other unit was paying 600 euro fees.

Anyway, solicitor was needed and we got a solicitor who sent several letters, made several phone calls with no co operation at all from the management agent / director. We then issued court proceedings to which the management company didn't contest or hardly even acknowledged and my father was awarded a judgement in his favour with a later date to be decided to make judgement on an amount due. Unfortunately my father had passed away two days before this judgement was made and I believe this judgement is null and void because it was made without my father's knowledge.

So now the apartment was left to me in his will and I started chasing the insurance money again (not an issue of money anymore, more so principle). I start requested audited accounts, viewing documents, etc. everything I was legally allowed to view and do. He made me jump through hoops, eventually I got the grant of probate to get myself on the register of members which would then 100% give me the entitlement to see all these documents, etc. And now he won't put me on the register of members, keeps ignoring letters, phone calls, etc. He is legally obliged to put me on the register of members.

In the mean time I lodged complaints with the ODCE (Office of Director of Corporate Enforcement) and also the PSRA (Property Services Regulatory Authority). The ODCE can't help me until I am on the list of registered members and the PSRA haven't got back to me as of yet.

I'm at a complete loose end and seem to have hit a bit of a brick wall. Is there anything else I can do other than getting another solicitor (still paying off my father's solicitor bills from the first judgement which is null and void)???

I don't want to let him get away with this, as I said previously it's not a money issue anymore. Any advice or help would be really appreciated!

pinkypinky

That's a very difficult situation to be in - you have my sympathies.

Have you always dealt with the same person? You should write to each of the directors with full details of the experience.
The agent is not acting in their best interests and they are being negligent by behaving this way. There may not be any way around getting another solicitor to act for you.

Daragh86

Yeah, I've tried to write to the other director but she happens to be his wife so that's a no go either.

Dealt with the same person throughout.

I best start saving for the solicitor so! It's just a pain because I know he won't co operate with anything so court proceedings are near a definate which is crazy.

Mrs OBumble

Daragh86 wrote: »

My father bought an apartment through an estate agent who owned the other 3 units of a 4 unit building (the estate agent didn't own the unit in question at any stage). The same estate agent is a director and management agent of the management company in place.

Who owns the other three units now?

Daragh86

Sorry, same person stills owns them - the director / agent / estate agent.

Daragh86

New question for you all!

How do you actually become a member of the management company? I believe it is something that should be done during the purchase of the property but what is the actual process that a solicitor will go through and also what is the role of the management company in issuing a certificate of membership?

Michael D Not Higgins

Daragh86 wrote: »

New question for you all!

How do you actually become a member of the management company? I believe it is something that should be done during the purchase of the property but what is the actual process that a solicitor will go through and also what is the role of the management company in issuing a certificate of membership?

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/owning_a_home/home_owners/management_companies_for_apartment_blocks.html

Register of members
The company must supply the buyer with a share or membership certificate and ensure that the register of members is updated. The members are obliged to keep the company informed of any relevant changes.

So it was effectively the estate agent's responsibility when he sold the apartment to your father. It was then his responsibility again when you inherited the apartment.

Daragh86

My problem now Michael is that the Management company don't know what to do to make me a member so I was trying to find out what the actual process for the management company is - whether it's just a matter of changing a document or does it need to be registered with CRO or the Land direct???

Paulw

Daragh86 wrote: »

How do you actually become a member of the management company? I believe it is something that should be done during the purchase of the property but what is the actual process that a solicitor will go through and also what is the role of the management company in issuing a certificate of membership?

The management company simply issue a certificate of membership. A simple enough piece of paper, signed by the secretary of the management company. Nothing needs to be registered anywhere else.

Daragh86

Paul, is this certificate a company made document or is it standard across the board?

Sorry about the detail I'm going into, it's just the management agent isn't co operating and probably hasn't ever issue one of these certificates before. Also after issuing this certificate does the companys accountant need to change the B1- Annual Return form to reflect the changed shareholder?

Paulw

The CRO doesn't need a list of shareholders. The management company is a private company, so the shareholder list is purely down to the company to maintain.

The membership certificate can be as simple as a letter stating that you're a member/shareholder, or it can be a nice fancy piece of paper with bells and whistles. It makes no difference at all.

I've never seen one from another management company, but I have certainly signed a good few of ours.

Daragh86

Thanks very much Paul, you've been a great help. Now I can go back to the management agent and tell him what the process is. Thanks again Paul.

Lantus

Under section 8 of the MUD act which came into force April 2011 anyone who becomes an owner of a property automatically becomes a member of the company: -

8.—(1) Where ownership of a residential unit in a multi-unit development is transferred, whether by conveyance, transfer, assignment, by operation of law or otherwise, membership of the owners’ management company which arises by virtue of ownership of that unit shall, notwithstanding any provision to the contrary in the Companies Acts or any other enactment, on such transfer stand transferred to the person becoming entitled to the freehold or leasehold interest in the unit concerned without the need to execute a transfer or have it approved by the directors of the company, and such person shall—

(a) be entitled to exercise the powers, rights and entitlement of a member in the company concerned, and
(b) be obliged to perform all the obligations (including the payment of service charges) pertaining to the membership of such company concerned.


They are also required to issue you with a certificate as soon as the sale or transfer in this case is complete. A certificate can be literally anything that just say X is a member of Y company and is signed by the company director/secretary.

I would request that you are added and formally request in writing that the members register be provided to you for inspection (as is your legal right.) Failure for them to provide this to you is an offence. So keep all records so you can show you requested it.

Long term you have an issue as there are 2 members of the company and only two directors (one of which may or may not be a member) You could look at removing these directors but with each director having one vote and you having one vote this could be quite tricky. After 3 years they must be re-elected, again your one vote doesn't help much as directors can continue to nominate each other. What do your articles of association say on this matter? Get them off CRO.ie its a critically important document.

I don't believe that management companies should exist with so few members as there is no 'normal' mechanism to ensure proper normal functioning of the company. It is just too easy for one person to take control and stay there propped up by a crony.

Daragh86

Lantus,

Thanks for the info, really helpful again.

This isn't a normal management company, he doesn't do anything at all he should do. In the 3 or 4 years we've been there he hasn't called an AGM, hasn't done any work to the place whatsoever, hasn't replied to any formal requests we've made, etc. He hasn't even issued us a receipt for the management fees we paid, luckily I've kept all bank draft receipts.

So the most standard of things such as a certificate of membership has been a battle over the last 3 months. Not to mention the insurance money he is withholding.

He doesn't seem bothered by any obligations on his part and completely ignores any letters we send making requests. We have made formal complaints to the ODCE though they cannot help us any further until we are registered members so that's why I'm trying this hard to get registered.

Lantus

Daragh86 wrote: »

Lantus,

Thanks for the info, really helpful again.

This isn't a normal management company, he doesn't do anything at all he should do. In the 3 or 4 years we've been there he hasn't called an AGM, hasn't done any work to the place whatsoever, hasn't replied to any formal requests we've made, etc. He hasn't even issued us a receipt for the management fees we paid, luckily I've kept all bank draft receipts.

So the most standard of things such as a certificate of membership has been a battle over the last 3 months. Not to mention the insurance money he is withholding.

He doesn't seem bothered by any obligations on his part and completely ignores any letters we send making requests. We have made formal complaints to the ODCE though they cannot help us any further until we are registered members so that's why I'm trying this hard to get registered.

I would send the ODCE the relevant bit of MUD act to clarify you are a member and it is not dependant on any certificate. The problem is that they will highlight that the MUD act is not company law and so not something they can factor in. Can you go and visit these people? Where is the company registered?

Daragh86

I have been going to see them, nearly on a daily basis to try to get him to do something because he doesn't reply to any letters. He has an estate agency business which I pop into. Normally he fills me full of lies and I just have to end up going back time and time again for him to fill me with more lies.

Valentine1

Quick question for you OP, Why do you think the original Judgment is Null and Void? you should have been able to enforce it as your father's executor.

Daragh86

Valentine1 wrote: »

Quick question for you OP, Why do you think the original Judgment is Null and Void? you should have been able to enforce it as your father's executor.

The judgement was made two days after he passed away and apparently since it was made after he passed away it was done so without his knowledge. Well that's what a solicitor told me anyway.

Valentine1

Daragh86 wrote: »

The judgement was made two days after he passed away and apparently since it was made after he passed away it was done so without his knowledge. Well that's what a solicitor told me anyway.

thanks for the response, Glad to hear you've had legal advice on the matter.

Daragh86

@ Paulw,

You might be able to help me out with this one, if you don't mind. I have received a share transfer form from the management company's solicitor saying that the share in the management company was never properly signed over to us from the previous owner.

Do you know anything about these forms or this process? I'm not sure if the management company or ther solicitor know what they are doing and I think this is just another way to stall the process.

Thanks,

Daragh

Paulw

Sounds like crap to me.

Once the property ownership is yours, the share is yours. There is no share transfer, that I am aware of.

Daragh86

OK, that's great. Thanks Paulw.

handlemaster

OP. When his estate licence comes up for renewal there might be something you can do. When you go into the office and talk to him talk nice and loud preferably with prospective customers are there. This is a very frustrating situation but be patient do as much as you can without forming out and try and get agreement with solicitor on fees. Best of luck.