Enquiry about Bichons

itsoktobehappy

Hi there. Not sure if I'm posting in the right place!

Have a bichon related query question. Should I post here or somewhere else?

Thanks for the help!

DBB

Hi itsoktobehappy,
Welcome to the forum :-)
I have split your enquiry away from where you posted it so that you now have a thread all of your own!
Fire away with whatever Bichon-related questions you have.

itsoktobehappy

Thank you very much

So, our bichon is 15 months old. We used to leave him at home with a family member Mon-Fri where there were people as well as other dogs with him all day long.

The family member cant mind him anymore so now I'm leaving him in a house where there are no people but a big friendly dog. He's usually there for around 6/7 hours a day, Mon-Fri. He has food, water, puppy pads etc and he isn't on his own really, as the other dog is there for company.

We only started this new routine a week or two ago but lately he has been very moody, almost annoyed at us in the evenings. If I didn't know better, I'd say he was sulking!!!!

I was worried, so today I left and shut the front door but stayed inside where he couldn't see me but I could hear him. He was whining at the door for about 5 minutes. I had to leave then, but I'm really concerned now that he is really suffering with this new routine.

Maybe he just cries for a few minutes? Or maybe he spends the whole day crying until someone comes home? Am I being cruel leaving him alone for 6 or so hours with another dog? He gets love, walks, cuddles and everything a bichon needs all the time.

Any advice/tips?

maggiepip

Can you set up your laptop or similar and record him when you go out? That would give you a good idea whats going on. Even if he doesnt stay in picture focus the sounds will be picked up. He could be totally worn out from stressing by the time you get home, which could explain his mood. Or there could be something wrong healthwise? He would be too pleased that youre home to be bothered sulking anyway! Start with recording him then you know for sure what youre dealing with.

sadie06

I really can't answer your question, but just wanted to point out that having another dog for company does not guarantee that your Bichon's stress levels are lowered. On a recent documentary (the name of which fails me now) which used spy cams to assess stress levels in dogs left alone, there were examples of pairs of dogs where one snoozed for most of the day, while the other one stressed and paced for the entire day.

Is there a neighbour you could ask to give a listen at the letter box to hear if the whining is ongoing? It's a really tricky one. I have to leave my puppy alone for nearly 6 hours once a week and his cries when I return break my heart.

itsoktobehappy

Thank you for your advice guys. I think what I'll do is set up a small recorder to record for about an hour when I leave tomorrow morning. Then I will know if the whining is continuous or if he just does it for a few minutes after I leave.

He is a very needy dog and loves attention and people, so the last thing I want to do is cause him stress or anxiety. I really don't want to be cruel to the poor thing.

If I listen back and he is quiet, then I guess it means he is fine without human company while we are working. If he is whining and stressed out then I think I will need to find him a new home.

I really hope not though!!!!

maggiepip

Gosh I dont think it needs to be a case of immediate re-homing if hes stressed!!!!There are things you can do for this - someone with more experience of separation anxiety might advise you. Theres also doggy daycare etc....

ZiabR

I wouldnt go so far as to say you need to find him a new home. You say that you only started this new routine recently so you need to give it time before making any big decisions. My Lab was the same, she would go mad when I left for work in the morning, crying and whinging and then became destructive. After 2 weeks it all stopped once she understood that I was coming back to her.

It is a kinda learning curve for them sometimes.

Have you tried to imitate you leaving the house in the evenings and then coming back 5-10 minutes later so they understand when you leave, you will come back.

Put your coat on infront of the dog and leave, bang the front door but stay inside. Go back into the dog but DO NOT allow them to become excited that your back, ignore all attempts where the dog jumps etc. Take your coat off, wait a few minutes and then repeat. This can sometimes help the dog understand that when you leave you are not gone forever.

itsoktobehappy

I am just concerned that it may be cruel and that he is suffering because he is so lonely.

I will definitely give it a few weeks before I make any decisions.

I will try leaving for a few minutes at a time, that's a great idea. It may help him realise that I'm not doing a runner!!

He goes crazy when I get home first - jumping up, scraping at me, running around. Should I completely ignore him when he is hyper like that or what is best to do?

andreac

There are plenty of options and ideas to help a dog that whines, rehoming is always and should be a last resort and should certainly not even be considered for a dog that whines.

Yes def ignore when he is like that as its only encouraging the behaviour.

Are there any dog walkers in your area that could come in a few times a week and walk the dog? Day care is another option as someone mentioned.

There are loads of things. Rehoming is an easy way out and im not sure why or how anyone could even comtemplate it because of crying.

itsoktobehappy

I would hate to have to re home him and I would definitely not do it lightly. He gets lots of love, attention, play time and walks etc. He's a great little companion and is a very big and important part of our family.

I just have a real worry about being cruel to the dog. I would hate to think that he is stressing out and getting upset and depressed over being left alone.

I think I'm too much of a softie to be honest!

ZiabR

itsoktobehappy wrote: »

He goes crazy when I get home first - jumping up, scraping at me, running around. Should I completely ignore him when he is hyper like that or what is best to do?

Yes, you should not allow this behavior. If you give the dog attention when they behave like this, it will re-enforce that when the dog behaves like that he gets attention. This is something that is not good, you dont want him doing this to visitors etc.

It may seem cruel at the start but he will stop behaving like that when he realises that he gets no attention from doing it.

When I come home, I walk into the kitchen and speak with my OH etc, take my coat off and wait for 5 minutes before engaging my dog.

Think of it this way. If you came home and your child started to jump all over you pulling at you and crying, would you tolerate it? No, you wouldn't. It is the same for a dog.

itsoktobehappy

He will get a shock tonight when I get home and ignore his hyper mood so! I'll be a transformed dog owner by the time I get home. Thanks for the tip. Really going to give that one a go from tonight.

aonb

If he was in a home with people for company all day and suddenly is in a people-less house, its bound to be confusing and worrying to him. Give him some time to settle in to this new routine before you worry too much. Let us know what your recording 'says'

DBB

I'm not into ignoring dogs for any period of time at all, for me it harks back to methodologies used by the Cesar Milans of the world, and doesn't actually address the problem as well as you might think it does.

Ignoring a dog is a punishment, and it works well when done consistently. But, and this is the bit that I have a problem with... If you ignore the dog for x mins, you're not actually teaching him anything, are you? You're just leaving a big void. Ignoring the dog's unwanted behaviour, and doing nothing else, means that many dogs become confused, frustrated, some even become depressed, because they can't understand why their owner ignores them. They don't tend to make a clear association between their mad behaviour, and why they're being ignored.

For me, it is vital that the unwanted behaviour is replaced, from the outset, by an appropriate behaviour that the dog can carry out to get the greeting he's looking for. Greeting is such a rewarding thing to do, why not use it to your advantage, and only give the greeting in return for nice behaviour?

I like to teach the dog to sit. Once he can do this, then I use the sit in all sorts of situations: greetings, putting on collars/leads, going through doors, getting in the car, dinnertime etc.
In the case of greetings, I teach the dog at times outside actual greetings. I go out of the room, then come in again, asking the dog to sit as I come in the door and he approaches. If he jumps up, I immediately walk back out the door, closing it behind me. Then I come in again, ask dog to sit again, and if he jumps up, I leave again. Usually very quickly, the dog stops jumping up as much, and sits instead. Bingo! NOW he gets his greeting (and a treat in the early stages).

I do this again and again, until the dog sits when the door opens, and without being asked to sit: the door opening has itself become a cue for the dog to sit.
As he gets really good, and he should do quickly, then I start becoming a little more excited and vocal as I come in the door. Gradually building up my silly behaviour teaches the dog to sit, no matter what the human is doing.

Now, it's time to get others in the family to do the same, though each new person should go right back to the start, they should find they can progress it more quickly than you, because you've done the hard work teaching the dog how it works.
This should be consistent: nobody gives him attention if he jumps up, but everyone gives him attention when he parks his bum (it doesn't have to be a sit... Anything that's not jumping up is okay! The sit is very handy though).
If you have visitors coming, put a lead on him and hold him as they arrive so he's not tempted to jump up in the early days... And ask your visitors to ask him to sit!

As for leaving him alone, as has already been said, having a dog for company is no consolation to a dog who wants his humans.

Things you can do:
Stuffed Kong Toys are a must.... He should get his breakfast in one if these, rather than in a bowl. If he's fed dry food, use a Kong Wobbler or an activity ball instead.
Leave a radio on a talk station. Do not switch it on just before you leave as this can become a cue that you're going, increasing his anxiety.
Leave an item of material which smells strongly of you in his bed.
Invest in an Adaptil Diffuser and plug it in as close to his bed as you can, where he can't chew it.
A Thundershirt could also help reduce anxiety.
I won't go into detail on the latter two, you'll find loads of info online or if you do a search here.
If routines like putting on your coat or grabbing keys puts him on the alert, don't do these things where he can see/hear you.

tk123

DBB wrote: »

A Thundershirt could also help reduce anxiety.

Thundershirts are in the Amazon Black Friday deals today

itsoktobehappy

For some reason I got no notifications about new posts! Apologies for not responding and thank you all for your input!

Our bichon seems to have calmed down and awful lot lately and seems a lot happier in himself!

I didn't manage to record him yet but I'm not as worried as I was about him as his behaviour has returned to normal at last!

So far so good, so I'll keep my fingers crossed.

Thank you all for the advice and for the helpful tips!

itsoktobehappy

Bichon update:

My bichon seems to have calmed down an awful lot and doesn't even run to chase me or follow me when I leave him off in the morning.

I think he's starting to get used to the new environment at last! Thank you all again for your input!

Just another quick query, if you don't mind. He seems to be going to the loo an awful lot at night lately. He used to hold it from when we let him out late at night until first thing in the morning but not really anymore.

We always leave puppy pads down just in case, but recently he has been using two/three a night from when we let him out just before bed.

Is this normal? Thanks guys!

tk123

itsoktobehappy wrote: »

We always leave puppy pads down just in case, but recently he has been using two/three a night from when we let him out just before bed.

Is this normal? Thanks guys!

I'd got to the vet if it was one of mine

itsoktobehappy

Hi guys. I'm back again. Unfortunately, it seems the dog never really settled at all. I have only learned recently and feel terrible about it. Although there is another dog in the house and people coming and going and staying in the house every few hours - he is really unhappy. A neighbour told me that he has been howling non stop, even when there are people upstairs in the house.

It seems he just cannot stand to be without human company at all. I think it is partially my fault, maybe I played up to it too much at the start.

I also did not research the breed enough. I know, I should have done my homework. It was selfish and stupid of me not to.

He is a lovely dog, I love him to bits and have so much fun with him, but I am just not sure what to do now at all.

As it stands, we work 5 days, 8-6 and we have no idea what to do with him during the day to keep him happy.

I just want him to be happy and safe and not stressed or anxious.

Any advice or suggestions welcome.

Feeling silly and heartbroken!

DBB

Ten hours is too long to leave a dog alone for, and as you've found out, having another dog for company isn't the answer in most cases of separation-related anxiety... it's his people he wants!
Is daycare an option for you?

VonVix

Does he get walked at all during the time you're away or is he just left in the house to do his own thing with whoever is around? Would he be suitable for a doggie daycare perhaps?

itsoktobehappy

No, he is not alone all day in the house. He would not be alone for longer than 5/6 hours (I know this is not ideal either). He is with the other dog during that time. He has a long walk in the evening when I get home but not during the day.

I guess he is pretty much left to himself (and the other dog) for 5/6 hours a day.

I am looking into daycare. I'm not sure I can afford it, as it seems pricey, but it may be an option.

He just needs to be near a human all day. I think maybe I gave into that need too much early on and now he is used to it.

I wonder would dog training help?

andreac

Is there a dog walker that could even call in a few times a week and bring him for a walk and play with him and tire him out? What about a walk before work?
A dog walker might be bit cheaper than day care maybe.

DBB

When a dog doesn't like being left alone (and I cannot emphasise this enough... Having another dog for company rarely addresses the problem), the 5-6 hours is too long. One hour is too long. At the start before you begin to actively address the issue, it can often be the case that one minute is too long!
Training, as in standard obedience training, will not address the issue. You can help a dog to accept gradually longer periods of separation, but this must be done very gradually, building up from seconds, to minutes, and eventually to hours, which poses an obvious challenge tho owners who have to go out to work.
There's little option in this case than to have your dog minded by someone else to avoid having to spend longer periods alone than you have taught him to accept (which is why visits by dog walkers are generally not enough either). So, you need to be looking at daycare as an important part of the rehab process for at least a number of months until you have developed his abiity to remain alone up to the point where he can be left for 5-6 hours.

tk123

Just be careful when choosing a daycare and don't be afraid to ask questions. Some a cage free* and some aren't - You know yourself now that even an hour is too much for your dog to be alone - if he's being confined and get's stressed how will the deal with it etc etc

Cage free daycare is a term btw - somebody corrected me on another thread for calling pens at the daycare they use cages. (I personally would prefer my dogs to be in a cage/crate where somebody can glance over and see what they're doing)

My dog used to be the same when we went upstairs or into another room btw but is fine now and after LOTS of work we can leave him home with a treat/chew - our record is 70 mins!

ferretone

Just putting in my 2 cent here, as it may possibly give you hope. We started out with a 30-second ability for leaving our Lola, who after extensive work, has now been perfectly comfortable being left alone now and again for 5-6 hours for the past few years. We don't do it very often, nor do we push it for longer. But when it does go that long, we get the neighbour to call in on her, and she is always panned out on the sofa. I know sometimes the stress of separation never seems to go, but we definitely got lucky with our girl that it did.

itsoktobehappy

I just want to thank you all for the information and advice! It's not nice knowing that your pet is not happy.

Very relieved to hear all of your bits of advice!

What I have done is, started looking for someone who is at home all day who I can drop him off with. I have put the word out that if there is anyone a bit older who needs a bit of company during the day, to give me a call.

I have my fingers crossed that we'll find someone suitable.

I'm not overly sure about the daycare situation as it's costly and I don't necessarily think the environment would suit him.

ferretone your words were such a relief to read! There is still hope! I have no intention of ever leaving him at home all day while we work but it would be nice to know that we are ok to nip off to the shop for an hour without worry.

Did you have any special techniques that you used?

Thanks for all the tips, guys. Feeling a lot better over it all!

tk123

If you can put time in everyday - start with seconds and build up from there it'll be a lot easier. I can never get everyone out of the house to get some practice !!!! My mum knows he'll bark so is reluctant to leave him - which is what created the problem in the first place. :mad: Simple things like closing the door behind me when I get up has stopped the dogs from following me everywhere or crying at the door. Another thing would be either make a barrier out of eg boxes/cardboard or even use a stair gate to keep him out of the room eg in the hall where he can still see you then give him a treat dispensing toy/kong/chew so he learns to settle.

itsoktobehappy

Just an update for you. Found a family friend, who is dog crazy and lost her own dog last year to look after him. She wants another dog herself but can't do it financially etc at the moment, so is only delighted to have a dog to walk/play with/keep company all day.

He is with her Mon-Fri 8-6 and she is charging nothing really. We are so lucky. Some places were quoting €400pm+!

He ran into her house this morning, where she was waiting excitedly to see him.

We are SO relieved!

Thank you for all the help and tips.

After the dust has settled, we are going to begin training him to be alone, as you described. 30 seconds, one min, 2 min etc.

My friends seem to think that if we train him well enough, we should be able to leave him alone 8-6 eventually.

I'm not so sure. I'm thinking, if we train him, we may be able to leave him while we go to do a food shop or go to a movie every now and then.

Am I right in thinking that leaving him alone, even if we train him up, Mon-Fri 8-6 is too much?

They think I'm crazy that I am thinking we will be using some sort of doggy daycare as long as he lives!

I think it's a must?

tk123

That's fantastic that you have somebody to mind him and take the pressure off. How long you leave them depends on the dog imo - my younger dog I reckon would happily keep herself entertained/sleep all day but I think my older guy would stress out. He's fine on his own as long as he has a chew/kong to work on but once it runs out he gets unsettled - he'll only bark for 5 mins now where before he'd bark non stop until we come back.

aonb

How lucky are you to have found a minder for your dog - thats really great.

You know your dog - if he has seperation anxiety he just cant be left alone all day. Why would you have a dog, that is alone and unhappy and stressed all day - you love your dog so you find a solution (which you happily have!) I had a collie (PTS last Nov) - he would happily spend the day alone (outside) mooching about. I have an elderly terrier who would sleep all day long - as long as he has water & a bone or treat to start the day off with, hes happy. My younger terrier is ok if he has the other terrier but 5/6 hours would be the most I would want to leave him. So, every dog is different - I dont think having a dog alone 8-6 x 5 days/week is good - but thats just me - at the very minimum I would have someone in to take the dog(s) out for a walk during the day. Im currently walking my friends dogs every day while they are on holiday - they will do the same for me when needed. Another friend lets those dogs out in the enclosed yard morning and evening. A lot of hassle and nuisance; that example is just for holidays, but you do what you have to do for your beloved dogs.

There is always a solution, luckily you have found one for your dog, but 8am-6pm every single day is I think too long a day for a little dog to be on its own. Just my tuppence worth. Hope all goes well with your new solution!

Whispered

Great that you found somewhere for him to stay during the week.

I agree with tk123, it will depend on the dog and the circumstances I guess. We leave them with the back door open and In this weather my two will happily sit outside sunbathing for the day. When we get home they come say hi then head back out. Whereas when it cools a bit and they are in the house more they are much more excited to see us and want their walk immediately etc. in winter we usually do a day at home, a day at the kennel, two days at home and then a day in the kennel. So they're occupied for two days and tired the other three