Just in time for Christmas :- Boeing prices

Alan_P

Boeing have published the price list for their commercial airliners.

http://www.boeing.com/boeing/commercial/prices/

Cheapest is a 737-700, a snip at 76 million dollars.

Tropheus

I would doubt if anyone pays close to those published prices especially if ordering a number of aircraft as most operators do.

L1011

Big operators appear to get about 50% off list, probably a higher % is from the airframer than the engine maker - the list price includes the engines but you can negotiate with them also.

murphaph

I find it interesting that a 747 Freighter costs more than the equivalent passenger model. I would have (apparently erroneously) thought the opposite. Assuming there are fewer fixtures and fittings, why are freighters more expensive?

kub

Tropheus wrote: »

I would doubt if anyone pays close to those published prices especially if ordering a number of aircraft as most operators do.

I like the way they titled it 'average price'. So that is the figure that the bartering begins at.

marketty

murphaph wrote: »

I find it interesting that a 747 Freighter costs more than the equivalent passenger model. I would have (apparently erroneously) thought the opposite. Assuming there are fewer fixtures and fittings, why are freighters more expensive?

Economies of scale I'd say. Whatever special fittings etc (especially cargo door modifications) go into a freighter, they're not selling as many of them as passenger versions.

CaptainSkidmark

best wait for the January sales :P

keith16

Be careful, if you pre-order one with Xtra-Vision, they will make you buy a small airport as part of the deal when you turn up to collect it.

Strumms

marketty wrote: »

Economies of scale I'd say. Whatever special fittings etc (especially cargo door modifications) go into a freighter, they're not selling as many of them as passenger versions.

This ^ may play a part but also take into account such expensive modifications as reinforced flooring, cargo loading systems and PDUs, locks and multiple configurations thereof for ULDs which can cost up to a couple of grand each..of which there will be literally hundreds on a wide body aircraft. Mods for carrying Dangerous Goods and the firefighting thereof. It's not nearly as easy as just whipping up all the carpet and taking the seats out.

Tenger

Strumms wrote: »

This ^ may play a part but also take into account such expensive modifications as reinforced flooring, cargo loading systems and PDUs, locks and multiple configurations thereof for ULDs which can cost up to a couple of grand each..of which there will be literally hundreds on a wide body aircraft. Mods for carrying Dangerous Goods and the firefighting thereof. It's not nearly as easy as just whipping up all the carpet and taking the seats out.

Indeed....the freighter is in fact a modified B747 so you are paying for the mods.

Zonda999

marketty wrote: »

Economies of scale I'd say. Whatever special fittings etc (especially cargo door modifications) go into a freighter, they're not selling as many of them as passenger versions.

Not the case for the 747-8F though! The 747-8i passenger version has been a sales disaster, the freighter has comprehensively outsold it. Reason is it has no competition really and the operators have had 744F's before this

Delta Kilo

MYOB wrote: »

Big operators appear to get about 50% off list, probably a higher % is from the airframer than the engine maker - the list price includes the engines but you can negotiate with them also.

Yup you're right, and on the engine manufacturers; some will give the engine for virtually free, their business model is that way. They make up the difference then on the aftermarket sale of parts and overhaul.

GE90 overhaul can cost anywhere in the region of $6m-8m USD!

eatmyshorts

And people still complain that they can't fly across Europe for 99c.

Alan_P

MYOB wrote: »

Big operators appear to get about 50% off list, probably a higher % is from the airframer than the engine maker - the list price includes the engines but you can negotiate with them also.

Is that true at the moment ? My understanding is that currently, minimum time from order to delivery for new aircraft is 3-4 years, and 6-8 years for the sexy, new models like the 787 and the 350.

Why would manufacturers discount heavily when they have years worth of orders anyway ?

L1011

Alan_P wrote: »

Is that true at the moment ? My understanding is that currently, minimum time from order to delivery for new aircraft is 3-4 years, and 6-8 years for the sexy, new models like the 787 and the 350.

Why would manufacturers discount heavily when they have years worth of orders anyway ?

When comparing quoted bundle prices to what's going down on airlines accounts, yes. There's a constant need to book new orders regardless of how long the backlog is.

The years of orders could very easily be reduced by another slump in air travel *or* a slump in fuel costs - the main reason for replacing older craft is their relative fuel inefficiency. Lot of the US carriers would be back out to the desert pulling the seals off their MD80s and 737 Classics (and probably CRJ100s too but they're generally not being replaced by anything) in the morning if there was another $20 off a barrel of oil.

There's always a few closer in delivery slots either held behind or available due to cancellations which would cost much closer to list price.

pclancy

I didnt know 767s were still being produced, would have though the 787/777 would have signaled its demise...obviously still a demand somewhere.

L1011

pclancy wrote: »

I didnt know 767s were still being produced, would have though the 787/777 would have signaled its demise...obviously still a demand somewhere.

Line is open for the KC46 tanker but passenger/freighter orders can still be made and a few have been. The 737-600 is also available if anyone actually wants one but there's no list price for it and no MAX version planned.

FR85

I'm going to place an order for one of each before they are all gone!!!

How much did MO'L pay per airframe when he place that order back in 2001/2? I ask because I read somewhere in the last year that he is selling off the current say 10 year old fleet for more then he paid for them.......

Is he selling them to keep the average age of his fleet down or is it so he can still make a profit?

marketty

FR85 wrote: »

I'm going to place an order for one of each before they are all gone!!!

How much did MO'L pay per airframe when he place that order back in 2001/2? I ask because I read somewhere in the last year that he is selling off the current say 10 year old fleet for more then he paid for them.......

Is he selling them to keep the average age of his fleet down or is it so he can still make a profit?

Ryanair pulled such a stroke by placing that huge order when Boeing really needed them, M O'L basically controls the supply and price of 737s

Delta Kilo

M O'L or Ryanair dont control the supply and price of 737-800s, far from it. It was a case of the right place at the right time back in 2001. They have been offloading them in dribs and drabs to keep their fleet under 7 years old. He purchased when nobody was buying and sold when everyone was buying. Simple business.

Anyways, 767s will still be in demand, especially in leasing, due to the issues with the 787 and some operators having a policy of not purchasing an aircraft type until its a couple of years old or while the airline is waiting to take delivery of a new 787, they will sometimes lease a similar sized aircraft. Technical issues and associated costs can far outweigh any fuel saving benefit.

mickdw

Delta Kilo wrote: »

M O'L or Ryanair dont control the supply and price of 737-800s, far from it. It was a case of the right place at the right time back in 2001. They have been offloading them in dribs and drabs to keep their fleet under 7 years old. He purchased when nobody was buying and sold when everyone was buying. Simple business.

And as such surely there is some merit in the statement by Marketty. If he is selling a large number of aircraft and not too many other operators have large numbers of similarly aged aircraft and he can hold them or push them onto the market, it is reasonable to assume that he has a certain control over prices.