Time trial madness?

mistermatthew

Am I the only one who seriously doubts the sort of numbers on the table in this article?
http://www.active.com/a3_articles/4d813a44-d806-4575-8332-7a94394b41ad/1?page=2

It is 8mins saving over 40km TT by having full TT setup. Surely this is beyond ridiculous?

Red Belly

30 secs for shoe covers?



Methinks somebody's trying to sell stuff!

rb

Lumen

I would like to see someone riding a bike at 50kph with the front wheel at 10-degree yaw and the rear wheel at 0-degree yaw.

spyderski

You're counting some of those time savings twice, e.g. you can only use the saving from a "Normal" tt helmet to the "best" TT helmet or whatever, but still cumulatively around 7 mins over a road bike with normal wheels and road gear, with the rider sitting up on the hoods.

Using the parameters of this particular test these times are easily believable IMHO, especially given the high base speed of 50kmh, which is a bit unrealistic unless you're Cancellara.

In the real world I'd estimate full aero TT gear would give around 4-5mins advantage over 40 km for a "Normal" rider averaging 40-42kph.

niceonetom

Very confusing list - you'd certainly being counting some saving twice to get to 8 minutes and it seems to say that a trispoke rear is significantly faster than a disc and that a deep front is faster than a trispoke, neither of which I see much among the pros. Certainly Sky, who don't skimp on homework, favour a disc and trispoke set up when max aero is the goal.

They're also using extremely high speeds as their baseline - anyone who can do 50kph for for 40km is a freak - but I suspect that might be because it inflates the saving aero devices yield as drags increases exponentially with speed. For mere mortals TTing closer to 40kph the savings are proportionally smaller.

Anyway, say you don't count things like helmet and position twice you might be getting on for 6 minutes according to these guys, and that seems just plausible if you're comparing worst possible set up to best possible set up.

Certainly my own experience with aero stuff is you do indeed go faster.

Beasty

My first 25m TT on the road bike with clip-on aerobars, aero helmet @269w - 1hr 9m 19s (Swords Club Championship 2010)

My most recent 25m TT, same course (Batterstown), TT bike, skinsuit, shoe covers, disc wheel on back, Zipp 808 on the front @266w - 1hr 2m 52s (Swords Club Championship 2012)

Obviously not the whole story, but conditions were broadly the same - I reckon the TT set-up saved me 6 mins (excl the helmet)

The one thing not addressed is how much power that may be lost in the more aggressive position on the TT bike. I've not tried the earplugs "enhancement" ...

mistermatthew

niceonetom wrote: »

Very confusing list - you'd certainly being counting some saving twice to get to 8 minutes and it seems to say that a trispoke rear is significantly faster than a disc and that a deep front is faster than a trispoke, neither of which I see much among the pros. Certainly Sky, who don't skimp on homework, favour a disc and trispoke set up when max aero is the goal.

They're also using extremely high speeds as their baseline - anyone who can do 50kph for for 40km is a freak - but I suspect that might be because it inflates the saving aero devices yield as drags increases exponentially with speed. For mere mortals TTing closer to 40kph the savings are proportionally smaller.

Anyway, say you don't count things like helmet and position twice you might be getting on for 6 minutes according to these guys, and that seems just plausible if you're comparing worst possible set up to best possible set up.

Certainly my own experience with aero stuff is you do indeed go faster.

I always wonder what the actual savings are. Is it not possible to have two riders ride side by side producing the same wattage with the different setups and measure the speed difference?

Its such a bullsh*t laden part of sport the aero benefits, I feel like its 90% propaganda.

niceonetom

mistermatthew wrote: »

I always wonder what the actual savings are. Is it not possible to have two riders ride side by side producing the same wattage with the different setups and measure the speed difference?

Or you could put the one rider in some sort or chamber that simulates outdoor conditions and the effect of airflow passing over the rider... some sort or "tunnel" that could produce "wind".

mistermatthew wrote: »

Its such a bullsh*t laden part of sport the aero benefits, I feel like its 90% propaganda.

Feel what you like but incredulity is not a counterargument.

ROK ON

I long for a day when all this space age bullsh7t is banned in the sport of cycling.
I want to see lads wearing wool jerseys with caps on backwards pushing their 14 gear steel machines.

I love TTs but absolutely abhor the idea of TT rigs.
Wouldn't it be great to see the best testers of the modern age fight it out on their road bikes.
Next year could be great if Fabian, Brad and Martin all target the hour.

Lusk_Doyle

ROK ON wrote: »

I long for a day when all this space age bullsh7t is banned in the sport of cycling.
I want to see lads wearing wool jerseys with caps on backwards pushing their 14 gear steel machines.

I love TTs but absolutely abhor the idea of TT rigs.
Wouldn't it be great to see the best testers of the modern age fight it out on their road bikes.
Next year could be great if Fabian, Brad and Martin all target the hour.

Give nasa a call when you sort the time machine out.

shoxter

I think the key thing to note here is that the biggest time saving is from using a Nike swift suit and at the bottom of the article it states;

"Sports aerodynamicist Len Brownlie, Ph.D. provided the data for this chart, which he has compiled over the past eight years during wind tunnel tests. Based out of Vancouver, British Columbia, Brownlie provides aerodynamic consulting for teams, individuals and manufacturers, including Nike's Project Swift."

Everything you read nowadays is angling at selling you a product.

Beasty

shoxter wrote: »

I think the key thing to note here is that the biggest time saving is from using a Nike swift suit and at the bottom of the article it states;

"Sports aerodynamicist Len Brownlie, Ph.D. provided the data for this chart, which he has compiled over the past eight years during wind tunnel tests. Based out of Vancouver, British Columbia, Brownlie provides aerodynamic consulting for teams, individuals and manufacturers, including Nike's Project Swift."

Everything you read nowadays is angling at selling you a product.

Is the Nike Swift skinsuit available to the general public?

mistermatthew

Beasty wrote: »

My first 25m TT on the road bike with clip-on aerobars, aero helmet @269w - 1hr 9m 19s (Swords Club Championship 2010)

My most recent 25m TT, same course (Batterstown), TT bike, skinsuit, shoe covers, disc wheel on back, Zipp 808 on the front @266w - 1hr 2m 52s (Swords Club Championship 2012)

Obviously not the whole story, but conditions were broadly the same - I reckon the TT set-up saved me 6 mins (excl the helmet)

The one thing not addressed is how much power that may be lost in the more aggressive position on the TT bike. I've not tried the earplugs "enhancement" ...

Thats a significant saving! Be good to have a pro ride a ten mile course on a TT bike then back to start and on a road bike.

I aways Imagined it would be the Position that is the big saving then after that it's all marginal gains. You'd think an F1 team could give pretty conclusive analysis of the benefits of aerodynamic products in cycling.

Its fascinating though, the TT advances. I wonder if it was anything goes on an upright bike what contraptions would be invented? The fairings would be something to see:)

Beasty

mistermatthew wrote: »

I aways Imagined it would be the Position that is the big saving then after that it's all marginal gains. You'd think an F1 team could give pretty conclusive analysis of the benefits of aerodynamic products in cycling.

Its fascinating though, the TT advances. I wonder if it was anything goes on an upright bike what contraptions would be invented? The fairings would be something to see:)

Chris Boardman set a World record of just under 4m 24.5s at the 1992 Olympics on the Lotus 108 - a bit of F1 expertise behind that

Martyn Irvine went over 4s faster on a modern Track bike in this year's World Championships

Jack Bobridge went another 10s or so faster than Irvine when setting the current world record

In less than 20 years the record dropped by over 14s, pretty much all down to the aerodynamics

pelevin

ROK ON wrote: »

I long for a day when all this space age bullsh7t is banned in the sport of cycling.
I want to see lads wearing wool jerseys with caps on backwards pushing their 14 gear steel machines.

I love TTs but absolutely abhor the idea of TT rigs.
Wouldn't it be great to see the best testers of the modern age fight it out on their road bikes.
Next year could be great if Fabian, Brad and Martin all target the hour.

Tobh I think stage races they should basically be on the one bike start to finish. As for with TTs seeing riders switch bikes when coming to a hill - I think that's just pure sh..

Lusk_Doyle

Beasty wrote: »

Is the Nike Swift skinsuit available to the general public?

No, but BC Brown[l]ies are! Taste fupping great too, so they do!

biketard

ROK ON wrote: »

I long for a day when all this space age bullsh7t is banned in the sport of cycling.
I want to see lads wearing wool jerseys with caps on backwards pushing their 14 gear steel machines.

FOURTEEN gears? That's posh!

ryan_sherlock

mistermatthew wrote: »

Am I the only one who seriously doubts the sort of numbers on the table in this article?
http://www.active.com/a3_articles/4d813a44-d806-4575-8332-7a94394b41ad/1?page=2

It is 8mins saving over 40km TT by having full TT setup. Surely this is beyond ridiculous?

Given my testing - the figures are roughly accurate. And me, (from a CS background), I love all the nerdery.

harringtonp

mistermatthew wrote: »

Am I the only one who seriously doubts the sort of numbers on the table in this article?
http://www.active.com/a3_articles/4d813a44-d806-4575-8332-7a94394b41ad/1?page=2

It is 8mins saving over 40km TT by having full TT setup. Surely this is beyond ridiculous?

Unlike many publications where the reader has little or no feel for the accuracy of the publication, all that is needed here is a power meter, a calm day, a flat stretch of road and bits of equipment.

Go up a stretch a number of times with different setups keeping the wattage as constant as possible at some target value and ensure the average wattage is the exact same for each test. Looking at the time differences between runs will quickly give you a feel for how credible the above article is.

Its something I plan on doing but have yet to get around to it.

Ryan.ie

I do a bit of TT leaguing and the times quoted sound about right...but I would be wary of the skinsuit being no.1 with the (declared) conflict of interest.

I own and use a front trispoke and it is fast.

Of course the greatest benefit is from power training and positioning - its great to be beaten by an ancient heavy contraption to remind you of what really matters.