Improving IEs finances.

corktina

Which is the best method?

1.Cutting formations and using unsuitable stock

OR

2.Getting more paying passengers aboard by improving things

TheBandicoot

3.) Increasing subvention and removing the 'company' infrastructure and latent profit motive.

LXFlyer

I think initially they have to costs until the current level of losses subside, through whatever means they have to. That obviously involves putting some trains into (hopefully) temporary storage.

Right now, that business cannot survive as it is and it has to address the cost of running the services.

Once the rot has stopped and things start to improve, then they can start looking at getting the sets back into service.

The Kerry situation is very specific to the weekend - particularly Sundays, and uses the 2600 sets that are in use Monday/Friday on Cork local services. It boils down to sets having a required maintenance exam in Cork on Saturday night, and the need to operate an extra service to Dublin from Tralee on Sundays. Without sending extra ICR sets from Portlaoise specifically for this, it can't be done any other way. That would cost more money.

LXFlyer

TheBandicoot wrote: »

3.) Increasing subvention and removing the 'company' infrastructure and latent profit motive.

Let's be honest, that just is not going to happen, and people need to realise this. As per the NTA fare determination report, the Department of Transport have committed to further subsidy cuts (7.4%) in 2014.

People need to base any assessment of the situation on the premise that DoT is reducing current expenditure. Anything else is frankly putting your head in the sand.

corktina

lxflyer wrote: »

I think initially they have to costs until the current level of losses subside, through whatever means they have to. That obviously involves putting some trains into (hopefully) temporary storage.

Right now, that business cannot survive as it is and it has to address the cost of running the services.

Once the rot has stopped and things start to improve, then they can start looking at getting the sets back into service.

The Kerry situation is very specific to the weekend - particularly Sundays, and uses the 2600 sets that are in use Monday/Friday on Cork local services. It boils down to sets having a required maintenance exam in Cork on Saturday night, and the need to operate an extra service to Dublin from Tralee on Sundays. Without sending extra ICR sets from Portlaoise specifically for this, it can't be done any other way. That would cost more money.

But the problem is by providing short formations and inferior stock (when suitable stock IS available) is choking off your demand and losing you your existing passengers which you will have to replace before you can find new revenue. This course of action isn't stopping the rot, it's adding to it (IMO)

LXFlyer

corktina wrote: »

But the problem is by providing short formations and inferior stock (when suitable stock IS available) is choking off your demand and losing you your existing passengers which you will have to replace before you can find new revenue. This course of action isn't stopping the rot, it's adding to it (IMO)

There is a trade-off to be made, and they need to keep on top of the train formations and change them where necessary. They seem to have done that with the DART - there have been far less complaints of late about short-formed DARTs in the evening peak from what I can see.

There are inevitably going to be some problems as the revised fleet is rolled out, but the important thing is that they are seen to address the problems as they happen, so that people are not, for example, standing unnecessarily.

However, your Kerry situation is quite unique - because of the ICR going to Dublin from Tralee, you have no other ICRs available in Cork. You would have to send a train down to Cork specially to cover it, at extra cost in terms of fuel and wages. Bear in mind that none of the ICRs will be in storage after the reformation process is finished.

Most of the 2600 workings on Kerry are at times when passenger numbers wouldn't be the highest (except perhaps for the 15:10 Tralee-Mallow on Sundays), which I would suggest does minimise the impact.

end of the road

corktina wrote: »

But the problem is by providing short formations and inferior stock (when suitable stock IS available) is choking off your demand and losing you your existing passengers which you will have to replace before you can find new revenue. This course of action isn't stopping the rot, it's adding to it

agree, a first time customer going to sligo on the train for example (we'l say they flew up from sligo to a meeting and decided to get the train back) they end up with a 29, do they come back? the DOT are cutting the subsidy at the expence of passenger comfort and turning people away from the railway, or maybe thats the aim so they can shut and rip up the lot?

corktina

lxflyer wrote: »

There is a trade-off to be made, and they need to keep on top of the train formations and change them where necessary. They seem to have done that with the DART - there have been far less complaints of late about short-formed DARTs in the evening peak from what I can see.

There are inevitably going to be some problems as the revised fleet is rolled out, but the important thing is that they are seen to address the problems as they happen, so that people are not, for example, standing unnecessarily.

However, your Kerry situation is quite unique - because of the ICR going to Dublin from Tralee, you have no other ICRs available in Cork. You would have to send a train down to Cork specially to cover it, at extra cost in terms of fuel and wages. Bear in mind that none of the ICRs will be in storage after the reformation process is finished.

Most of the 2600 workings on Kerry are at times when passenger numbers wouldn't be the highest (except perhaps for the 15:10 Tralee-Mallow on Sundays), which I would suggest does minimise the impact.

well in that case maybe they should be storing one fewer Mk4 set and have a spare 22 available.

(I suspect that the 201s are expensive to run and possibly a bit knackered...wrong decision to buy so many, wrong decision to buy Mk4s to go with them, wrong decision to use them on Mk4s..... so much Capital wasted....)

LXFlyer

corktina wrote: »

well in that case maybe they should be storing one fewer Mk4 set and have a spare 22 available.

(I suspect that the 201s are expensive to run and possibly a bit knackered...wrong decision to buy so many, wrong decision to buy Mk4s to go with them, wrong decision to use them on Mk4s..... so much Capital wasted....)

I don't disagree about the capital wastage, but that is a separate issue from dealing with the current financial situation in which the company finds itself.

Either way - say you didn't store one of the Mark 4 sets. You would still have to operate an extra ICR train to/from Cork, which would cost more in terms of fuel and you would have to find a driver to operate it as well. Sure you might gain some extra revenue, but you would need 3 additional ICR sets in Cork for the weekend to cover all of the workings on Kerry. That's a lot just to cover a weekend.

One can only assume that the figures just don't stack up.

eejoynt

why dont they stop printing timetables?
pdfs are online, and internet access will suit most paying customers
renfe seem to have gone this route, and dont seem to have rout pdfs available online

Decuc500

lxflyer wrote: »

They seem to have done that with the DART - there have been far less complaints of late about short-formed DARTs in the evening peak from what I can see.

I think this is because people have now realised most evening rush hour darts are short and there's not a lot we can do about it. Almost every dart to Howth in the evening rush hour is four carriages and standing room only. There's only so many e-mails you can send to IE or complain on twitter.

LXFlyer

Decuc500 wrote: »

I think this is because people have now realised most evening rush hour darts are short and there's not a lot we can do about it. Almost every dart to Howth in the evening rush hour is four carriages and standing room only. There's only so many e-mails you can send to IE or complain on twitter.

I'm really thinking of the cases where people were being left behind - I've not seen reports of that anymore. Standing is somewhat normal I'm afraid on commuter trains.

There do appear to have been several trains that were reduced to 2 piece sets at the start/end of the peak which aren't anymore. That is some progress.

end of the road

lxflyer wrote: »

I'm really thinking of the cases where people were being left behind - I've not seen reports of that anymore.

because they have probably gone to the car or bus instead

lxflyer wrote: »

Standing is somewhat normal I'm afraid on commuter trains.

not standing in a line body to body from 1 drivers door to another crushed together like tinned peas

LXFlyer

end of the road wrote: »

because they have probably gone to the car or bus instead

not standing in a line body to body from 1 drivers door to another crushed together like tinned peas

We will have to wait and see what the numbers are like before we can conclude that.

corktina

can they wait and see? IE need to keep all their passengers surely. They will be hard to attract back..

bikeman1

In fairness to IE they have balanced out the DART fairly well, and I am speaking as a daily commuter on the DART.

I have no problem standing for a few stations at peak time, that is currently the case. Go back to 2007 / 2008 and you'll see dangerously over crowded trains.

LXFlyer

corktina wrote: »

can they wait and see? IE need to keep all their passengers surely. They will be hard to attract back..

We don't have any hard evidence other than conjecture by certain people here on an internet board that people are leaving the trains.

The company will have the hard evidence.

For sure people will moan and groan - as a nation we are past masters at doing that about any form of change, but whether people give up or not is another thing.

As for Kerry - the 2600s have been operating on Kerry in the current pattern since the last timetable change (i.e. January), and even before that there have been at least two return workings operated by 2600s on the line at the weekends for some years - this is nothing new. It would strike me that numbers have presumably not plummeted if that has been perpetuated for so long.

Hilly Bill

eejoynt wrote: »

why dont they stop printing timetables?
pdfs are online, and internet access will suit most paying customers
renfe seem to have gone this route, and dont seem to have rout pdfs available online

They have .

Jamie2k9

There do appear to have been several trains that were reduced to 2 piece sets at the start/end of the peak which aren't anymore. That is some progress

Progress from IE or did the fact Leo V meet with the CEO and the issue was discussed in the Dail. I'm sure they played a major role in it and some middle of the day services are 4 car set to.

There has always being scope for cutting capacity across the network and deliver savings but they have gone just a little to far when it comes to the 22's changes.

As far as I can see manual LC are one of the biggest problems and cost to the company. There must be at least 50 gate keepers currently working, down a lot on previous years but still to many.

Increasing passengers is only good if the revenue they get covers the extra capacity required for them and I don't think it does on Intercity routes, Dublin commuter services might be different.

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Progress from IE or did the fact Leo V meet with the CEO and the issue was discussed in the Dail. I'm sure they played a major role in it and some middle of the day services are 4 car set to.

There has always being scope for cutting capacity across the network and deliver savings but they have gone just a little to far when it comes to the 22's changes.

As far as I can see manual LC are one of the biggest problems and cost to the company. There must be at least 50 gate keepers currently working, down a lot on previous years but still to many.

Increasing passengers is only good if the revenue they get covers the extra capacity required for them and I don't think it does on Intercity routes, Dublin commuter services might be different.

depends why it wouldn't on intercity routes, level crossings are a major part, removing as many level crossings as possible and bringing all lines up to the highest speeds possible should have been what that 106000000 should have helped go toards instead of the western fail rail

Jamie2k9

end of the road wrote: »

depends why it wouldn't on intercity routes, level crossings are a major part, removing as many level crossings as possible and bringing all lines up to the highest speeds possible should have been what that 106000000 should have helped go toards instead of the western fail rail

You would need to fill the whole carriage on an intercity route to be close to breakeven in terms of cost and even at that it would be hard. So you need to increase at least 70 passengers, its a big ask. Adding a handful of passengers here and there just won't be of any real benefit to the company on IC routes. Extra carriages won't work unless there is large numbers to fill and there is not.

One thing I expect is that when IE got the 22's they didn't expect to have to run as many 2 3 piece sets together which is why there costs are to high at the minute.