Firevalves

agusta

Im changing an oil line during the week.Its only about 10 feet,filter leaking slightly and a couple of joints weeping,It has a spin fire valve in boiler house.I recommended changing the spin fire valve to a remote controlled fire valve.Im wondering should i be recommending the additional expense of a remote acting fire valve on the customer or just stick with the spin firevalve.Also is the KBB remote acting fire valve the only one i should be fitting or are the cheaper remote acting fire valves just as good?

esox28

Soilder fused head fire valve can be used so long as you can test its operating function, i know right but that's it.

also you can't make the domestic coustomer change to a remote sensor you can document and recommend.

I've used the cheeper oftec certed remote sencors but found I was getting more call backs to lock out more than the teddington kkb but sometimes the 20quid makes the job.

Billy Bunting

The wheelhead firevalve can stay but you must be note it on the CD11, I use quite a few of the cheaper Peerless remote valves and while they seem to have a reputation for false activation i have not had one.

shane0007

esox28 wrote: »

Soilder fused head fire valve can be used so long as you can test its operating function,

How can you test the correct function of a wheel type fire valve? To test you must heat it to its slam shut state. This will melt the lead.
So... you have tested it & it worked & now you must replace it with a new one. You then test the correct function of that one. You heat it & it works. I think you can see where this is going.

Under Building Regs, wheel type fire valves are acceptable but they cannot be tested so you do not know if they will work when required to.
In OFTEC world, they are not acceptable because only testable fire valves are allowable.

SEAI do not accept wheel type fire valves either under the Better Energy Scheme.

Sparkpea

Wheel head fire valves are unless imo and only handy for shutting off the oil for maintenance purposes. I don't think they are covered by most building insurance companies.

I use KBB firevalves normally but sometimes have used the cheaper RAF firevalve to save a few pound to the customer.

esox28

shane0007 wrote: »

How can you test the correct function of a wheel type fire valve? To test you must heat it to its slam shut state. This will melt the lead.
So... you have tested it & it worked & now you must replace it with a new one. You then test the correct function of that one. You heat it & it works. I think you can see where this is going.

Under Building Regs, wheel type fire valves are acceptable but they cannot be tested so you do not know if they will work when required to.
In OFTEC world, they are not acceptable because only testable fire valves are allowable.

SEAI do not accept wheel type fire valves either under the Better Energy Scheme.

Omg is that not what I said.

Billy Bunting

esox28 wrote: »

Soilder fused head fire valve can be used so long as you can test its operating function, i know right but that's it.

also you can't make the domestic coustomer change to a remote sensor you can document and recommend.

I've used the cheeper oftec certed remote sencors but found I was getting more call backs to lock out more than the teddington kkb but sometimes the 20quid makes the job.

Your right you cannot force a customer to comply with any regs, you can turn down the work if you can afford to do that, but the idea is to cover yourself with it on the CD11 that customer was advised and signed for by the customer.

shane0007

esox28 wrote: »

Omg is that not what I said.

Perhaps I misunderstood you but I thought you said they can be used as long as you can test their function.
My point was you cannot test their function.

Sparkpea

"I know.. right?" I guess was his way of saying wtfq

DGOBS

EXTRACTED FOM THE PROPOSED NEW PART J BUILDING REGS:

5.2.6.4 The oil feed installation from the oil
storage tank to the appliance should conform
with the recommendations contained in BS
5410: Part 1, including the fitting of an automatic
fuel cut-off valve

WHAT OFTEC SAY:

It should be capable of cutting off the flow of oil outside the building......(rules out the wheel head)
It must be activated by a remote sensor located over the pressure jet burner
The sole use of a fusible head isolating valve is not RECOMMENDED (so essentially, it's up to you)

WHAT FIREBIRD SAY:

A fire valve is an essential part of the oil supply system. It should be capable of cutting off the flow of oil
outside the building in the event of a fire starting up within the boiler. The valve should be located just
outside the building at the point where the oil supply line enters. It must be activated by a remote sensor
located over the burner, but in a position clear of any direct radiation or excessive heat.
IMPORTANT: Fire Valves should comply with OFTEC Standards OFS E101
Fitting of Fire Valves should comply with BS : 5410 Part 1

WHAT GRANT SAY:

A remote sensing fire valve must be installed in the
fuel supply line (outside) where it enters the building,
with the sensing head located above the burner.
Recommendations are given in BS 5410:1:1997.

Billy Bunting

I think most of us are professionals in the game and are well aware of what should be there in an ideal world, but if it ain't then pointing out "proposed" regs and the like are all you can do but nowhere does it say the customer can be made do it, so all you can do is cover your arse, that essentially is our job these days, do the best we can and covering our arses.

DGOBS

Of course, but the OP did ask what he should be fitting.
As always in this country regs have no teeth! Until something goes wrong.

Billy Bunting

DGOBS wrote: »

As always in this country regs have no teeth! Until something goes wrong.

Time someone got their finger out, got things moving and did something about it

I doubt there is an Engineer in the Country who doesn't want proper Regulation and enforcement within the oil industry.

Dtp1979

DGOBS wrote: »

EXTRACTED FOM THE PROPOSED NEW PART J BUILDING REGS:

5.2.6.4 The oil feed installation from the oil
storage tank to the appliance should conform
with the recommendations contained in BS
5410: Part 1, including the fitting of an automatic
fuel cut-off valve

WHAT OFTEC SAY:

It should be capable of cutting off the flow of oil outside the building......(rules out the wheel head)
It must be activated by a remote sensor located over the pressure jet burner
The sole use of a fusible head isolating valve is not RECOMMENDED (so essentially, it's up to you)

WHAT FIREBIRD SAY:

A fire valve is an essential part of the oil supply system. It should be capable of cutting off the flow of oil
outside the building in the event of a fire starting up within the boiler. The valve should be located just
outside the building at the point where the oil supply line enters. It must be activated by a remote sensor
located over the burner, but in a position clear of any direct radiation or excessive heat.
IMPORTANT: Fire Valves should comply with OFTEC Standards OFS E101
Fitting of Fire Valves should comply with BS : 5410 Part 1

WHAT GRANT SAY:

A remote sensing fire valve must be installed in the
fuel supply line (outside) where it enters the building,
with the sensing head located above the burner.
Recommendations are given in BS 5410:1:1997.

Would the word building also refer to an outside module? As in the fire valve must be outside it

shane0007

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Would the word building also refer to an outside module? As in the fire valve must be outside it

Yes it must be outside it but also a minimum of 1.0m away from the casing.

agusta

DGOBS wrote: »

Of course, but the OP did ask what he should be fitting.
As always in this country regs have no teeth! Until something goes wrong.

No, i didnt ask what i should be fitting,i asked should i be recommending the additional expense of a remote acting fire valve on the customer or just stick with the spin fire valve.
i serviced the boiler today,a warmflow boiler house model,Abit of a battle may i add!.It was agreed yesterday i would fit a KBB remote acting firevalve.This morning the customer changed his mind and didnt want it[too expensive],so i fitted a new spin valve as the other was ancient.I did manage to change the flexi oil line,The oil line that was on it was dated 1998 and the boiler gets serviced every year by a reputable service company!

esox28

Lads, imo there are too many gray areas in our oil industary. we have no clout when it comes to regs all we can do is document and make recommendations

The sole use of a fusible head isolating valve is not RECOMMENDED (so essentially, it's up to you)

something needs to be done in regarding an Irish oil firing regulatory board separate from oftec somewhere we can push for change to law like rgii and reci. Im not sure why oftec arent making certain changes mandtory?

Two of my main gripes are firevalves and tank locations, every second job I go to has a tank tight to a combustible fence, fused head firevalve god knows where you'd find it, what do ya do...service the boiler and fill in yor cd10 'maybe' and gone.
Where as gas service I find alot of fused spurs with no switch...noh, couple of days later I get called by the customer because they have recieved notice from rgi to have the problem rectified. Perfect, customers are protected and I've more work.

Open for debate or a scrap lol.

shane0007

I completely agree.
The issue with the regs is the use of the words "should" & "shall".
How I interpret that is if it says "shall", that means I must do as it specifically states in the regs. If it says "should", then it is telling me to do what "industry best practice" is. So I would have to have a very good reason to go against what the best practice is within the industry.

Billy Bunting

You have it Shane, best practice, and advise the customer all the way, but if they don't want something or they want it here there or anywhere then you mark it down and cover your arse, just with is813 main thing in all things these days is cover your arse and pass the buck.