ATH Knockout Match: Bounty Hunter vs Omackrel

campo

Next match up is between regular PW poster Bounty Hunter vs Omackrel, may the best poster win

Simplified version of the rules:

I will post a topic and you have to post your response including why you made that choice within a given time limit (before the next match is scheduled to begin), take care while making your responses however as the other contestant can counter your arguement i.e pointing out possible flaws in what youve said.

*you can only counter an arguement two times so make sure your point is worth making. If someone's defense of their arguement isnt good it will count against them.

*You can use the same answer as your opponent if you wish i.e you agree with their choice however its hard to win a debate when your making the same points someone has already made

see the OP of the main thread for further details or if any examples are needed check out previous years competitions.

Q1. In your view what was the best feud in WWE/F and give reasons why this was the best feud.

after your first post: why would your choice be better than your oponents?

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so have at it and g'luck lads!

Bounty Hunter

Omackeral (Bret vs HBK)

first off cheers Campo ( you copy n pastin backstard )

went over a number of feuds several times but as much as I can think of arguements against it I kept coming back to 1. If I was to have a top feuds in Pro Wrestling history top whatever I would always have this as number 1...

Stone Cold Steve Austin Vs Vince McMahon

This rivalry almost single-handedly changed the future of professional wrestling as over on WCW you had the NWO running wild and getting massive ratings leaving the WWF in it's wake and so in turn the WWF had to get edgier. It wasn't only in terms of the scantilly clad sable etc that they achieved this however a more mature audience was targeted through the use of more colorful language, and more extreme angles. The epitome of everything the WWF was trying to be at the time was a man named Stone Cold Steve Austin, the anti establishment, beer drinkin’, bird flippin’, trash talkin’, ain’t gonna take crap from no one, blue collar, every day Joe. He was on the rise big time ever since his King of the Ring 96 “Austin 3:16 says I just whooped your ass!” promo but it oddly wasn't until he had gotten injured and the WWE needed to work around this that his popularity really soared as he did what everybody / wrestling fan wants to do when they are pushed too far.

McMahon wouldn't let Austin compete, he suspended him, stripped him of his tag title, his Intercontinental title and more. It was too much and when the Rattlesnake fought back every fan was behind him as he struck with a stunner for the first time

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8rYILw_uLg

From then on, week in and week out, the fans bought tickets and tuned in to see “Stone Cold” fight his boss, something everybody could relate to and wished they could do themselves.

What followed is now seemingly the blueprint for all the anti-authority storylines we have had since be it against GMs or whoever. It was new and fresh at that point though and was just simply awesome. The reaction was intense and everything they did was ratings gold be it segments or even matches. This isnt asking just about matches but feuds but then again this feud last so long and brought in other wrestlers to represnt McMahon and they had great matches with Austin too.

Omackeral

After much thought and mental debate inside my head, I've come up with a choice that I'm hoping some readers here will enjoy reliving with me. It's a classic both in the ring, backstage and even beyondthat . This is the ultimate feud in all senses of the word. Professional? Check. Personal? Check.


Ladies and Gentleman, the greatest feud to ever grace, and sometimes disgrace, the WWE is

Bret 'Hitman' Hart vs Shawn Michaels.

These two Hall of Famers have Hall of Fame ego's to go with their Hall of Fame talents. They've changed how business is done today and how we look at politics and cliques (or should that be Kliqs) backstage.

Their journeys are mirrored somewhat. Both broke out in outstanding tag team tandems. In fact, both were outstanding to the point they themselves were outstanding within their own teams. Bret was possibly the finest technical wrestler around, even back then. While Shawn is responsible for the whole 'who's the Jannetty' mantra tag team fans of today still use. Both men were destined for singles stardom and it came as the 1990's dawned. Shawn famously booted his tag partner through a barbershop window to become the hottest heel of the day while Bret was earning his excellence of execution moniker on a nightly basis and defeated Mr Perfect for the Intercontinental Title. These two were destined to collide, and collide they did.

You see, not only were Bret and Shawn the future, they were innovators also. They competed in the first ever Ladder Match in WWE history. The company saw gold in both men's future as Shawn picked up the IC Title while Bret ascended to the pinnacle of the federation, gaining the WWE Title. Hart would stay atop the WWE, while Michaels continued to climb his way into the upper echelon of the company to solidify himself as a main eventer. At WrestleMania 12, he would do just that, at the expense of The Hitman. Bret was made to look weak, in his opinion, in the training video montages leading up to their clash. Michaels,who had freshly turned face, looked a million bucks in his promos. What do you think?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nby6VzVCxRw

Hart was already resenting Michaels due to his flamboyant nature while Bret was usually more reserved. Bret's mania entrance was just your average intro while HBK's was so very OTT. The shift in attitudes put the men at logger heads. When Shawn went over the Hitman in a gruelling 60 minute Iron Man Match (another first) the political landscape changed forever. Allegedly, Michaels instructed referree Earl Hebner to get Bret Hart 'out of my f*cking ring' so he could soak up the limelight. Michaels would hold the title for eight months before dropping it to Sid at the 1996 Survivor Series. Though he’d regain the championship at the following year’s Royal Rumble, he’d be forced to vacate it due a controversial knee injury. Michaels claimed the knee injury was going to retire him. Was this a legit injury? Was it exaggerated? Was it a ploy to stop Bret getting his win back at WrestleMania 13?

Michaels would return months later, while Hart would face Stone Col Steve Austin in one of the greatest matches in the history of WrestleMania. Meanwhile, the once-friendly Michaels-Hart relationship had deteriorated to a point of no return. Their planned on-screen rivalry to build up to their inevitable rematch would work itself into hatred off screen. Hart mocked HBK publicly, pointing out that he posed in Playgirl. Michaels would respond, claiming that just because he lived his life freely and openly didn’t make Hart the better man. He also claimed Hart had seen “Sunny days,” insinuating an affair between Hart and Sunny (who was married).



The rivalry played out over the summer with Michaels' DX crew taking on Bret's newly reformed Hart Foundation. Shawn famously defiled the Canadian flag which didn't sit well with Bret. The two were involved in a backstage fight also. It would later transpire that Bret was offered a 20 year contract by Vince but had yet to sign heading into the infamous match the two would have in Montreal. I won't go through THAT whole scenario but safe to say it changed absolutely everything.

Nobody trusted anybody anymore. Conspiracy theories and secrets were abundant. Locker rooms split. People jumped ship. Lives and friendships torn apart. That, ladies and gents, is what a feud is.

Bounty Hunter

Omackeral (Bret vs HBK)

Okay, first off both these feuds are obviously great and we are really going to be nit picking here as to why they werent the greatest as apposed to actually criticising the other persons choice imo. That being said...

Although there was real life annomosity between Bret and Shawn, Bret was never the greatest on the Mic and this is one of the areas where their feud would lack in comparison to Austin vs McMahon where both men could work the mic and the crowd like masters. Feuds are also far more than just matches and the characters McMahon and Austin portrayed in this feud caught the fans imagination more so than perhaps any had ever done so before.

It is notable however that one of these characters, The Mr McMahon character was in many ways born during the culmination of the feud you have chosen. You may argue a la the commitments that thats what makes it poetry and unique etc but the fact that your feud never got a proper conclusion due to The Montreal Screwjob has to hurt it imo. You could argue that it makes it stand out more but in terms of best ever you would want more of a proper conclusion.

Interesting to note:

On the March 30 Raw is War, the night after Austin won the WWF Title at WrestleMania XIV, McMahon presented him with a new title belt and warned Austin that he did not approve of his rebellious nature. In April 1998, it appeared Austin and McMahon were going to battle out their differences in an actual match, but the match was declared a no contest when Dude Love made an appearance

This was the first time since June 10, 1996 that Raw beat WCW Monday Nitro in the ratings. Which means that at the height of Bret vs HBK, DX vs reformed Hart Foundation, Montreal screwjob etc WCW was beating WWF, but when Austin vs McMahon kicked into gear the WWF caught and passed WCW in the ratings.

People were willing to pay to see Austin get his hands on the boss, far more than they were Bret vs HBK or literally any other pairing at that time. So Intense was their rivalry Austin even once gave up his Wrestlemania title shot so as to get a shot at Vince instead inside a steel cage ( In Your House: St. Valentine's Day Massacre)

Its hard to compare such feuds but obviously McMahon vs Austin had the longevity and diversity factor in it's corner too as Vince had many great wrestlers representing him in his feud from Mankind to The Rock and The Undertaker (could name many more for example Big Show interfered on McMahons behalf in the above mentioned cage match).

You might talk about having DX & The Hart Foundation involved but Vince brought with him The Corporation or later the Corporate Ministry and o so many memorable angles and moments that we will never forget. Whether it was beer baths, pouring cement into Vince’s car, or making Mr. McMahon nearly wet himself with a toy gun, it was the most entertaining thing on TV.

its moments like these that people still talk about to this day, infact even during Daniel Bryan's recent run people were calling for him to have a few more Austin like moments vs The Authorithy, He did have a corporate makeover bit just like Austin did and people wanted more, like the beer truck (re-created by Angle w/Milk) for example. Meanwhile the only time you see them re-create or even talk about bits from the HBK/Bret rivalry it is just the screwjob and that was arguably more McMahon's doing than either of the two lads.

Omackeral

I would like to start out be debunking one of your main counter-arguments. You said:

You may argue a la the commitments that thats what makes it poetry and unique etc but the fact that your feud never got a proper conclusion due to The Montreal Screwjob has to hurt it imo.

First of all, not only did it get a conclusion, but a conclusion that was 13 years in the making. This occurred on the 4th of January 2010 on the very same night that Jeff Hardy, the world's hottest free agent showed up on TNA wrestling, as well as Hulk Hogan, Eric Bischoff, Scott Hall and Sean Waltman. The fact that most people probably forget the latter is due to the so called burying of the hatchet between the two greats. All the history and animosity, what would happen? People tuned in in record numbers to see Bret and Michaels in the same ring at the same time. What other pairing could have peaked that interest? People cared and cared a lot. A great ending to a long, personal bitter feud.


As far as Vince vs Austin goes. I'm not gonna deny it was great tv. But as you say yourself, it's been done over and over now with GM storylines every other week. It's taken the shine off the original a little. Another major problem I have with the feud is what happened at WrestleMania X7. This, for me, is what jumped the shark. Austin as a heel was terrible. He was going around hugging the very man he battled and seeking his acceptance on TV by licking up. It was really cringeworthy. It also left us what those god-awful WHAT!? chants that have ruined every major promo since. The legacy of that ill-advised heel turn lives on to annoy fans worldwide and scupper new talents on the mic .


You said:

Feuds are also far more than just matches...

I agree 100%. This is why Bret Hart vs Shawn Michaels takes the cake. It transcended their in-ring characters and on screen personae. Their feud was so deep that it changed how business was done. It divided the lockerroom. It divided fans (not unlike the Roy Keane/Mick McCarthy World Cup 2002 fiasco at Saipan). That's not to take away from their in-ring efforts. Both men have had 5 star matches and their clash at WrestleMania 12 was voted the best WM match of all time in a 2004 poll. They are constantly in people's top 10 of all time. Scratch that, top 5. The men had magical chemistry as opponents that leaked into every faucet of their beings.


As you said, feuds are far more than just matches. Bret and Shawn are the ultimate testament to that.

Bounty Hunter

Omackeral (Bret vs HBK)

Okay yes it got a conclusion but not exactly what people would have wanted at the time of the feud now was it. No final match between the two of them, no the final match for Bret came vs my boy Vinne Mac (and damn did that match suck).

Jesus could have showed up on TNA it wouldnt have made a difference Raw would have still trounced it in the ratings that night It just doesent compare to McMahon vs Austin being able to break WCWs stranglehold over ratings which was something Bret & HBK couldnt do while their feud was actually on going.

You state that Austin vs Vince was great (agreed! ) and has been done over and over again with GM / owner storylines every other week (again agreed). I don't however agree that this has taken the shine off the original and if anything it instead just further emphasizes how great a feud it was considering so many years later so many try to recreate it and recapture what those 2 had together.

Austin as a heel may have been terrible in your opinion but you yourself state that it is because he was hugging Vince and I guess you just couldnt get over that fact. The fact that he would align himself in such a way with as good auld JR would say "The Devil himself" in McMahon, the man who he hated so much and who the crowd had supported him terrorizing during their feud. In many ways your reaction itself further highlights just how good their feud prior to their later alliance was as it wouldnt have bothered you so much had the feud not been so good in the first place.

You say that the backstage annomosity etc between your 2 add to it being a better feud but it could argueably be said that the same thing inhances my feud in comparison to yours as it was 100% made up and one didn't need to know all about the backstage b!tching to follow it and get into it as much as perhaps you would with HBK/Bret to the extent you could class it the best ever.

I notice that you didn't quote and respond to me saying that Austin vs Vince had some of the best and most memorable angles and moments something which I found HBK/Bret lacked (again apart from the screwjob but that was McMahon).

here is a compilation of some of the ones from Austin/Vince's feud

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoHzfIVTCPo

Bret/HBK simply doesent have moment like these( no feud does, unless they are ripping off these originals):

Vince Takes a Beer Bath, Austin & McMahon 1 & 2 in the Rumble, Austin destroying the DX Express, Driving a Zamboni into the Arena, Austin visiting McMahon in the hospital, Filling Mr. McMahon's Corvette with Concrete, making Vince P1ss himself... For every moment i've mentioned so far from the VKM/SCSA feud that made you say "holy ****," there are a dozen more just like it. If those two didn't invent the "holy ****" moment, they sure as hell perfected it. Stone Cold and Vince were two of the best of the greatest of all time in terms of hyping up a big match or talking for pure entertainment value.

Austin has been declared to be the most profitable wrestler in the company's history. How did he garner such mainstream popularity in the WWF? but by being a disrespectful, beer-drinking antihero who routinely defied the establishment and his boss Mr. McMahon.

The feud broke WCWs dominance and created the greatest star the industry had ever seen plus the greatest heel the industry had ever seen. It was the number 1 feud in WWF/E history and therefore should be rsted higher than Bret/HBK as good a rivalry as that was

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-TTUT9CxCg

Omackeral

Mr Bounty Hunter, answer this question for me. Who won the Stone Cold Steve Austin vs Vince McMahon match at WrestleMania, the Grand Daddy of them all, the Showcase of the Immortals? Nobody. Because it didn't happen. Tell me how the greatest feud ever, in your mind, never saw the light of day on the biggest stage of all? This is a major plot hole in your argument in my opinion. Wrestlemania is the culmination of all the biggies and this one simply didnt take place at it.Then we look at Bret and Shawn. These were the men trusted with carrying the torch after the massive steroid scandal of the early 1990's. Two smaller guys who were absolute generals in the ring. They paved the way for the Benoits, Guererros, the Punks and Bryans. The workhorses. The true talent. They didn't need all the gimmicks of corvettes with cement or hospital antics with silly clowns showing up. They could get it done in the ring. The real life drama only added to it further. Bret's own son would wind him up saying he's 'in the Kliq'. Doesn't get much more personal than that.

Austin vs Vince was fun, it never delivered one classic though. Hart/Michaels never did anything under 4 stars. Say what you will about Bret's abilities on the Mic, he is the only man ever who was a hero Worldwide yet despised in the USA. He was that damn believable. His whole act was believable to the point I even wondered 'was it an act?'. Who else could garner that unique reaction? He was never met with apathy in his WWF career since going solo. You mix that in with, in my opinion, the greatest man to ever lace up a pair of boots and you have the best feud of all time.

Bounty Hunter

Omackeral (Bret vs HBK)

this poll will close before this time tomorrow - this bump may keep it on page 1 till then

beakerjoe

Was really close. As a any WWF/WWE fan of the late nineties knows, both these feuds were great. Looking back they have been so significant to the landscape of titan towers. Pity one of these arguments has to come 2nd.

Bounty Hunter

Omackeral (Bret vs HBK)

Congrats Omackeral well debated and well deserved win here even though I still think Austin/McMahon is the no.1 feud personally, but I guess either more disagree with me or your just one persuasive fellah (probably a mix of both) who is now in the QF.

campo

Omackeral (Bret vs HBK)

Great debate my thinking was the personal nature of HBK and hart is what won it