ATH Knockout match: Beakerjoe vs Legend_DIT

Bounty Hunter

2 non regular posters here so this one may take a little bit of time before it gets going (Even though DD is a ATH regular he isn't exactly a PW regular these days) but it's time for more ATH so here we go with the second half of the first round.

Simplified version of the rules:

I will post a topic and you have to post your response including why you made that choice within a given time limit (before the next match is scheduled to begin), take care while making your responses however as the other contestant can counter your arguement i.e pointing out possible flaws in what youve said.

*you can only counter an arguement two times so make sure your point is worth making. If someone's defense of their arguement isnt good it will count against them.

*You can use the same answer as your opponent if you wish i.e you agree with their choice however its hard to win a debate when your making the same points someone has already made

see the OP of the main thread for further details or if any examples are needed check out previous years competitions.

Q2: One of the current WWE roster is about to have a gimmick change and its up to you to decide who. Who would you pick? why them as apposed to any of your other options? what gimmick would you give them and how would you introduce it?


after your first post: why would your choice be better than your oponents?

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so have at it and g'luck lads!

Bounty Hunter

Legend_DIT

Danger Dave has had to bow out due to time constraints so this is now Legend_DIT vs Beakerjoe

g'luck Beaker man & c'mon Mr Legend lets get this show started

beakerjoe

Legend_DIT

Ive a lot of options here Ive mulled over. There are many people who need a gimmick change in WWE, from those who aren't utilized to those that are being used but are clearly stale and need rejuvenation. I was considering few names such as Kofi Kingston (someone who is very talented and used so incorrectly in my opinion) or even Roman Reigns (some one who is soon to leave the shield and go on to bigger things). But the person Ive choosen is the Woo Woo Woo kid himelf, The Long Island iced Z, Zack Ryder!

Now I think this kid loves the business through and through, he's a true fan and he literally has the heart and desire to go far in this business. He successfully got himself over with the fans all by himself a few years back and I personally think creative dropped the ball big time with Zack. The guy has the brains and savvy to connect with the audience and his push never really got the time it deserved. So for the last year and a half, Zack has been in Job city, simply used as pure enhancement talent to put other talent over. All his momentum has long gone and is basically saw as a loser in WWE. That would change .......

Id start having Zack slowly re establish himself slowly on television at first just so people could remember him again. Id have him team with on again/off again partner Santino Marella prior to his gimmick change. Have him continue to lose and be jobbed out as usual with Santino, using the team as enhancement talent for other tag teams like The Shield, The UnAmericans and The Wyatts. Right before one of the matches, Zack is on edge and upset about the prospect of losing again and vows to wrestle the match of his life in the next bout tagging with Santino. The match takes place and Zack is on form but as usual the team falls short of the victory, with Santino taking the loss. A distraught Zack argues with Santino and floors him as Marella tries to walk away.

The next week Marella and Zack are interviewed on Miz Tv , and both Zack and Santino claim to patch things up and all is well. They shake hands, they embrace and then...BAM! Zack turns heel by attacking Santino and leaving him in a heap. Zack then is interviewed backstage and claims hes done losing and is changing his attitude. The following week, Zack is reborn as a cocky heel. Hes accompanied by his pal the Big O (for those that don't know, hes Zacks real life pal and is a big guy physically) and tells the crowd that Zack Ryder, the loser is no more and that Zack Ryder the winner is here. He announces that the Big O is his "spotter" and has his back.



Basically Zack will have a persona similar to Shawn Michaels circa 93, he will feud with Marella and cast him aside like Shawn did with Marty. He will start dressing in new ring attire, new theme music and have the Big O as his hired muscle. He doesn't have to do the whole Jersey Shore gimmick either, and can simply be an cocky asshole on screen. Now truthfully its a rip off of HBK in his early heel days and whats wrong with that, yes its been done but it was 20 years ago and can easily be done again successfully with Zack. He has the persona that some love to hate already and under a full heel turn, I think he is capable of pulling off great heel mannerisms and could easily wind a crowd up like a young heel Shawn Michaels. I believe Zack is wasted at the moment and can be made into a big time hated heel, picking up wins by cheating and out side interference since he was unable to do it as a nice guy. I think this way, Zack Ryder can turn into a big time mid card heel and even launch the career of the Big O, a guy who has heaps of potential and fits the bill of what Vince likes in a wrestler at the top end of the card. Even if the Big O is unavailable, someone like a repackaged Mason Ryan could easily do the job. Hed fit the hired muscle persona well.

I had some great ideas for others, such as Alberto Del Rio, some one who is stale and even though hes a great wrestler, needs freshing up. Or Justin Gabriel, an great in ring talent that hasn't been used right since the Nexus. Id say I actually could of picked anyone from over half the roster.But I chose Zack for a few reasons over others. Firstly I think ive a soft spot for the guy, I feel he never got properly pushed and when he did It was like WWE Creative weren't bothered with him and didn't know how to capitalise on Zacks own initiative for getting himself over via Social Media. Also I believe really loves the business, not that others don't but he is a genuinely big wrestling fan and is living his dream, Something id love to do myself. I think Hed give it 100 percent and try his best to get his new character over. I also picked Ryder because hes not every ones cup of tea. A good few people I know dislike him and think hes never come good and I think this can help him get over as a heel.

WWWYKI

Legend_DIT

When approaching this question, I think an important criteria to look at is does this person have the ability to actually take a gimmick and use it to their potential. I'm afraid there's little point in repackaging "Superstars" who have had their credibility damaged, people who are lost causes in terms of ever being seen as a top guy.

I know gimmick re-packaging can occur lower down the card as well, but for maximal impact I plan on looking at upper midcard/main event level.

The person who I would give a new gimmick to is Dolph Ziggler. Filled with potential, both in the ring and on the mic - he has a terrible name and a character who's motivations don't make for a super effective face or heel. After all, someone being a show-off doesn't make me hate them, it's just mildly irritating. Dolph has proven that he can take gimmicks which on paper have no right to succeed and make the best out of them, leading to a much stronger position on the card than I imagine most would have expected when he (literally) introduced himself to everyone.

How would I introduce this change in Dolph Ziggler? Simple, I would make him go on a losing streak with the majority of his losses coming from mistakes made while trying to show-off, with each defeat creating a vicious circle where he is even more focussed on making amends by acting over-confident and arrogantly, causing him to lose. Finally, after a defeat to the bottom of the totem pole (I'm imagining Heath Slater) by roll-up, he snaps and beats up Heath Slater and the referee before storming to the back.

An authority figure announces that he has been suspended indefinitely for his actions and he disappears from WWE for about 3 months.

Then on a random Raw, Justin Roberts makes the ring announcement coming back from a commercial break with Kofi Kingston already in the ring "and his opponent, from Hollywood, Florida, Dolph Ziggler!" Dolph's music plays, but a different character comes out, with short blonde hair and wearing long pants.

He talks into a mic as he steps into the ring. "Dolph Ziggler was a loser. For years, Dolph Ziggler was the best in-ring performer but that got him nowhere. He pandered to you mindless idiots trying to entertain you. But I'm not Dolph Ziggler, I'm not Kerwin and I'm not Nicky - My name is Nick Nemeth, and unlike anyone else in this building, I'm a born winner."

The commentators are surprised at this turn of events, but also express amazement at the increase in his intensity levels when he faces Kofi in his first match.

"Dolph, Nick or whoever he is showing some real fire in his belly tonight after months of being out of the ring."

With Kofi receiving little offence, Nick wins what amounts to little more than a squash match (but with no showboating from Nick) and then adds the exclamation point by brutally attacking Kofi after the match is over until CM Punk runs down to save his friend. Kofi is wheeled out on a stretcher.

Short-term, this should build to a program with CM Punk, with Nick positioned as a genuine threat.

The long term plan with Nick Nemeth is to have him play what I feel is an exaggerated version of himself - an egotistical prick who feels he should have been given the ball years ago and is now going to take it by any means necessary. With a slightly modified moveset, he could be presented as a credible threat using his speed and athleticism to his advantage. In addition, using strategically placed injuries to a couple of mid-card Superstars with no immediate future plans would help sell how dangerous Nick Nemeth has become.

I believe Nick Nemeth has the potential to become a top heel. My gimmick change is quite subtle, drop the name Dolph Ziggler and "Show-Off" tag and allow Nick to channel his frustration at being overlooked at the top of the card into developing a compelling character who actively hates the WWE Universe, has no moral code and will stop at nothing to win the WWE title.

Legend_DIT

I was a big fan of Zack Ryder during Z:TLIS but never seriously considered him based on my self imposed criteria that whoever I chose had to have the ability to actually have some sort of chance of getting attention from creative rather than being consistently overlooked. I remember hearing that Vince only cares what the top echelons of the card is doing and while that is unfortunate, I cannot see much time being devoted to developing a Zack Ryder/Santino feud beyond perhaps Main Event, Superstars or the JBL & Cole Show.

I don't disagree that he has love and desire for the business and that you could expect any less than 100 per cent from him. What I do disagree with, however is that his character can be redeemed by rehashing a storyline from the early 90's
which was originally done by a tag team who had much more of a connection than a comedy jobber pairing (not even a proper team).

When was the last time Zach Ryder or Santino were given a non-comedic role in a vignette? And when was the last time the audience's attention was ever drawn to how these jobbers must feel about losing all the time? With all the unusual attention given to this duo, there is no way that a heel turn by Ryder would have even a fraction of the impact that Shawn turning on Marty did. How does Santino react - does he abandon the Cobra gimmick and attempt vengeance on Zack in a more serious manner, thus devaluing his character when involved in a match with anyone else (as it appears he doesn't take it seriously) or does Zack's first real feud as a cocky heel involve a comedy prop, meaning that any elevation Zack might get from a comprehensive win is diminished as it is only Santino Marella, at the end of the day?

One of the major differences between our choices is that I have asked my choice is toning down one part of his personality but appears to be staying mostly true to himself. From Z:TLIS, it seems clear to me that Zack has a goofy sense of humour and that this cocky heel role would not be a natural extension of himself as it was for Dolph Ziggler. While it was still early in his career, his solo heel run in ECW did not give me confidence in his ability to sell a cocky heel gimmick that well.

I would say that the Dolph/Big E partnership was very similar to what you are suggesting with Zack/Big O and I don't think a genuine case can be made that Zack is vastly more talented than Dolph or that Big O/Mason Ryan is better than Big E. Shawn/Diesel is not the only time this has been tried, and it doesn't always ignite the crowd.

In summary, Zack Ryder has been mismanaged to the point where he will never be seen as much more than a jobber at this stage. If the best he could hope for is to be a mid card heel, then I don't believe he was the best choice. I feel Zack's repackaging would be unlikely to succeed and even if it did, this would have little to no impact on WWE as they don't tell consistent stories beyond their top tier of guys.

beakerjoe

Legend_DIT

Let me begin by saying Im a huge Dolph Ziggler fan, He has all the tools in my opinion to be a big time player and is still in a good, yet not ideal position within the company. The reason I didn't chose him is mainly because he doesn't need it.

He doesn't need to repackaged or given a new gimmick, hes got quite a following already and believe hes still very close to achieving a big push, given the right direction. Dolph as suffered just like Zack has suffered. Zack was on fire at one stage and WWE didn't know what to do with it in my opinion. Dolph in my opinion had great momentum after beating John Cena at TLC last year and really should of cashed in soon after and with the help of Big E could of been a great heel champion. Sadly he was not pushed in this way and was in limbo til he won the Title the night after WM. Sadly the ball was dropped by WWE and they missed so many opportunities to put him over in the past year.

But he simply hasn't suffered as much as Zack. Is his persona is still salvageable ? YES! he could easily, with the right direction be pushed back into a upper mid card position and eventually become a solid main event player. He doesn't need to repackaged as of yet as he is not stale, hes character is admittedly not where he was this time last year but he is far from in need of a new gimmick.

And your choice of a new gimmick has been ...well done before with Dolph. Its basically heel Dolph Ziggler with a new name and no showing off. His cockiness and showing off are his great strengths. Take these away from him and you've just got another aggressive heel that is too like what Randy Orton is/has been in the last while.

One big flaw with the born winner gimmick change, is that its coming off a big losing streak for Dolph/Nick. It would make no sense to have him suddenly declare himself a "Born Winner" when in fact he has lost a lot of matches consecutively in the lead up to the gimmick change. I agree Dolph/Nick has the potential to be a top player in the company, I personally see him as a new HBK esque guy for this new era, but I don't think a gimmick is needed, he just needs some direction with his current persona. He can channel said frustration he currently has against the authority, which would make more sense since its kinda true in reality. No need to change his gimmick at all.

And I also think with a gimmick change, it would do nothing to change Ziggler position. I can imagine when this gimmick change is in full swing Dolph would still be in the same spot, trying to break through the glass ceiling. With guys like Orton, Show, D-bry, Punk, Cena, Del Rio and not to mention the part timers, Id find it hard for anyone to get beyond the ceiling and break through unless a few injuries happened or deals for Brock and Rocky fell through. Nick would still be in the same place regardless.

Id rather change Zack and have another Strong mid carder. Now I admit, Zack Ryder isn't the best grappler on the roster, but he is capable in the ring and has the right tools charisma and work rate wise to succeed with my said gimmick change.

Why wouldn't Vince or creative be interested? Mid card feuds and lower card feuds have to happen in order for new guys to break out. Dolph himself a lower card guy at one stage and was allowed to move up, why cant Zack follow in Dolphs footsteps?

I see what your saying about Santino and Zack being a jobber team at the moment, but I think most fans pay attention when a heel turn happens. Fans wonder where its going, especially because its out of character and they usually are excited to see where this change of character is going no matter where one the card it happens.

How would Santino react? He justs keeps acting like himself and the new and improved Zack can take him to school, dominating him and maybe even put him on the shelf so Zack can look impressive under his new persona. Santino can slink away into the jobber / comedy background while Zack moves on to serious mid card feuds.

Like you said, his previous short ECW heel run wasn't great. His persona was more goofy then, and a bit cartoonish. The new envisioned heel run, would see him simply act more serious, less like a jersey frat boy and more like an asshole who can say what he wants and has the Big O or other hired muscle to back him up. Also it is similar to Big E and Dolph earlier this year. Dolph and Big E were made into a tag team and not much emphasis was put on Big E just being the muscle while Dolph was the star. Also the storyline just faded out without a whimper, which was down to creative and not Dolph and Big E. The hired muscle in my proposed Zack repackaging would be just that, muscle, no in ring matches for at least a year and just beingthe enforcer to Zacks rising star.

Your closing argument was that Zack wouldn't make it because WWE only look after there top stars. Now don't believe that's entirely true in every case. Some do break through, as Dolph himself has. I think Zack, under this gimmick change can at least make a good IC/US champ, just as Ziggler has. As it currently stands, I think its very hard to find room in the WWE Main event with a lot of guys up there. I don't think anyone including Dolph will break through anytime soon. Id rather make Zack change his ways and rise to the mid card along with Ziggler than have Ziggler change and most likely be in the same spot he is in now and nothing done with Zack.

Legend_DIT

I think the reason I went with slightly changing Dolph Ziggler is exactly for the reason you mentioned - he does have all the tools to be a big time player who is in a good position. However, I feel this has occurred in spite of his "Showoff" gimmick, which in my opinion is not a main event character type.

I found this question to be quite hard as "gimmicks" such as "the showoff" Dolph Ziggler, "the intellectual saviour" Sandow and "Fancy Dancer" Fan-Dang-oooooo feel limiting to me. Perhaps I'm in the minority but I feel like there a greater reality focus on some of the bigger stars in WWE - John Cena, Randy Orton, and more recently CM Punk. That's not to say they don't have strongly identifiable characteristics, but for the most part, these are more based on having a "reality" focus, while I would say the former gimmicks have more in common with for example "The Poet", a wrestling garbageman and a wrestling barber.

Of course some gimmicks can work to a great extent, but this is hugely influenced by a wrestler's acting ability and creative's willingness to preserve the gimmick (which they notably failed to do last Raw with Erick Rowan).

These are the main reasons that I would get Dolph to abandon the Showoff gimmick - by simply living his day-to-day frustration of his position on the card and his obvious belief that he deserves to hang with the big players and translate that into his performance, I believe he would be more captivating to watch and his character'smotivations in the ring would be clearer - does he want to prioritise being at the top or does he want to continue to tread the same path that he has done where his attempts to "steal the show" get him nowhere in particular?

I believe his cockiness should definitely continue as Nick Nemeth - because it's a believable trait, and it definitely comes across in his media interviews (which appear to be a mix of kayfabe and shoot comments) that he feels overlooked. Dropping the Dolph name would signify a refresh in his character's approach to get to the upper echelons and if I was booking him, I would encourage him to show more "Ruthless Aggression" in everything he does.

The losing streak for Dolph is a necessary part of the booking as it facilitates the lightbulb moment where Nick stops playing the game of being "The Showoff" Dolph Ziggler, and re-evaluates how to change his position. After time off, Nick comes back to WWE with a renewed sense of determination and belief in his abilities (rather than the character of Dolph/Nicky/Kerwin). "The Born Winner" refers to Nick's self-conidence/arrogance and may not (and in the end should not) reflect reality, but I see it as an important part of his debut promo (a la Daniel Bryan/Bryan Danielson on NXT season 1).

I don't like the idea of using the Authority as a crutch, as this too explicitly references the fact that they make decisions behind the scenes (and the fact that to date, all Authority storylines have been too messy with too many authority figures, seemingly all on a heel spectrum but few getting along with one another) while a frustration with his previous approach at trying to reward the crowd with his antics instead of getting the job of succeeding done would appear to me to be the better approach.

I agree that this gimmick change may not light the world on fire or propel Dolph/Nick to the no.1 guy (or even the No.2 heel) but I feel it has the potential to do so, much more than anything that is done with Zack Ryder, as Zack will (to misquote Tony Schiavone) "never put a lot of butts on seats" while I believe Nick has the potential to.

Zack's value to the company is negligible, and he has been used as a joke for so long now, I won't see WWE prepared to put in the long term investment required to make him seem a credible threat at any level, never mind thinking even further down the line to moving him up the card.

I counter your point about the interest that crowds take in heel turns down the card by directing your attention to the split of Cryme Tyme (who were an actual tag team that competed for the titles rather than a random pairing who are put together more often in the run up to Zack's heel turn). Shad turned on JTG and no-one cared. Shad and JTG had a PPV match - no-one cared. Shad stopped appearing on television shortly after that and still no-one cared. While Santino is an amusing character, I don't think he is a sympathetic enough babyface to enrage fans against Zack and ultimately any feud would be seen as irrelevant due to their lowly status on the card. It's the modern day equivalent of Barry Horowitx vs. Brooklyn Brawler.

Finally, another example of where your gimmick suggestion for Zack was attempted and ultimately abandoned was Tyson Kidd, who I believe has a superior in-ring presence, when he had his extremely short run with a muscly enforcer type. This was ultimately abandoned after a few weeks, due to the weaknesses of the enforcer (and possibly a lack of time on Creative's side to focus on someone so far down the card). If the same approach was to be given to Zack, he is also relying on someone else to carry the gimmick through while Nick's shift in attitude is solely dependent on him.

In essence, I believe Nick to be the stronger worker, both in-ring and on the mic. For this reason, I would suggest that his impact within WWE could be potentially much greater than Zack's and thus more time should be spent on maximising the effect of his character, with an eye of adding another credible main eventer to freshen up the landscape of WWE.

Daniel Bryan (Pro-Universe) vs. Nick Nemeth (Anti-Universe) at Wrestlemania could potentially be a HUGE match. Zack Ryder's upside is considerably more limited.

beakerjoe

Legend_DIT

Ah my final rebuttal, here goes. Firstly let me try counter some of the points you made,

You may not see Zack as "money" and you may not see Zack "putting butts in the seats, But way back in 2006 when he was Nicky in the Spirit Squad, did you or any fan really see The Next Big Thing when they looked at Nick Nemeth. Honestly? If you're being honest with yourself you'll say NO. Not even close, but this time last year many predicted, or more realistically, many hoped Dolph would break through.

If given the same opportunity as Nemeth, maybe Zack Ryder can go on to bigger and brighter things. A guy so enthusiastic as Ryder is wasted as the joke that he is right now.

You say Zack has been used as a joke for so long, which is true. However, wrestlings fans, especially casual fans have fickle memories. Jeff Hardy, when I was growing up was your standard jobber. Id remember when he was cannon fodder for most new superstars entering the WWF in the mid 90's. Within 6 months of him and his brother being given a real shot he and Matt were ones to watch on nearly every PPV from October 99. Sure Dolph himself was a joke, shaking hands in meaningless backstage segments. My point is, within six months of being used correctly can change a superstars career and Zack has the ability to cast of the shackles of his goofyness with the right attention.

Most fans will soon forget if things go right, hell If people can forget about Mark Henry being the baby daddy to Mae Young hand then they can forget about Woo Woo Woo Zack Ryder in no time

You make the point of Zack turning out like Shad of Cryme time fame. The problem with Shad was he wasn't given a direction, a persona or to be honest a real chance. He was a victim of lazy booking. Between Shad and JTG, it was the latter who carried the group gimmick wise. When the heel turn happened, shad was lost and JTG buryied. Shad just turn on his partner and that was it. No build up, no new look and no real reason to his turn. I and most fans didn't have interest because I just didn't care and I blame creative for that. There was no real hype for the feud and no real follow up afterwards and that's why that fell flat on its face.

Same goes for the Tyson kid gimmick, he had no personality before the gimmick and still to this day hasn't been given any insight to his character. How can he get over like this?

Zack on the other hand, he has a character at the moment, one of a jersey shore loser, but given proper camera time to establish a character he can pull it off. I think given just a little bit of time, he can make people hate him and if given a fair chance he can be a truly loathed heel.

Gregory Helms was given a good chance when he turned heel on Rosey. At the time he and his partner were jokes, losing consistently and way down the pecking order. The hurricane persona became a lame gimmick, after a while it was stale and was a joke of a character. A heel turn came along and slowly a new persona grew from it. Suddenly the stale, always losing hurricane had gone and was given a heel make over. Gregory Helms was born. He was doing quiet well, feuding with Benoit and Jeff Hardy and before you knew it, The Hurricane who was a joke was gone and a distant memory and the same can happen for Zack.

I still feel Zack could, with right direction go from his own Hurricane-esque joke to a new improved mid card heel with the proper attention. I feel its well possible to make Zack a credible mid card heel and overall more worth while than repackaging Dolph Ziggler and have him most likely be in the same spot he was at TLC last year and not break through the glass celing.

But heres the thing I noticed about your last post, I get the feeling that you like Dolph as he is and simply want to turn him heel. Its not really changing his gimmick, is it?

Now you have choosen Dolph and Ive disagreed. He was so close to breaking through before, only to fail because either there wasn't a spot for him at the top then or simply because WWE missed the boat with him at the time. I also believe he is already embracing his reality side, as I believe the show off is an extension of his own personality, as do you. I believe a more sinister heel would be slightly further away from his own persona while the cocky side is more believable with Dolph.

So by keeping his cockiness and adding aggression and a name change....is that really a new gimmick.... sounds like more of an evolution of his own gimmick to be fair. And not a new gimmick.

You also say gimmicks that are too...eh...gimmicky for a lack of a better word, wont get over. I disagree. I can see your point, when Rocky started being himself he became The Rock he light up the place. Great point, however I do think a gimmick can also work as well. Like with John Cena, his rapping, Vanilla Ice like gimmick got him over and without that, god knows where he would be today. Or where would Triple H be with out the blueblood gimmick? These gimmicks get people on the map and most likely there real persona starts to shine throw after a few years. The same could happen for Ryder.


To sum it up it sounds like you don't wanna change Dolphs gimmick that much really, just his name and turn him. Its not really changing his gimmick.

We already have a Dolph Ziggler who has potential to be a top player, Id rather try make something from nothing with Zack Ryder.

beakerjoe

Legend_DIT

Just curious to when the polls are closed guys?

Bounty Hunter

Legend_DIT

This one is closed at 3.30 tomorrow. Usually 2 days / 48hrs after the poll goes up

beakerjoe

Legend_DIT

Truly humbled by this. Was just happy to take part. Was good fun debating with you Legend and looking forward to a battle next round.

Bounty Hunter

Legend_DIT

well played both, commiserations Legends and woo woo woo you know it beakerjoe your into the QFs