Anti-corruption seminar at the next FF ard fheis

raymon

With one top Fianna Failer in jail and two more currently running through the courts ( obviously innocent until proven guilty applies ) it might be a good idea for FF to use their ard fheis as a re-education session in the area of corruption.

For the honest Fianna Failers it would be a reminder and for any corrupt Fianna failers it would get them back on the right path.

Would this be a good idea?

Harry Angstrom

Closing the stable door after the horse has bolted.

michael999999

There going to get bertie ahern to give a speech on how not to get caught. While collecting bags of cash from everyone attending!

Fianna fail will always be about personal gain!

worded

Ever hear the one about the frog and the scorpion ?

Thet would make a good anti FF poster to remind the electorate of what happened. The frog representing the electorate and FF the scorpion.

Harry Angstrom

michael999999 wrote: »

Fianna fail will always be about personal gain!

Other parties would have been the same. I've no doubt that if Fine Gael had been in power for as long as Fianna Fáil, they'd have been just as shady and corrupt. They just didn't have as much opportunity as Fianna Fáil to get their snouts in the trough.

For Forks Sake

raymon wrote: »

For the honest Fianna Failers

You wouldn't require a particularly large room for that exercise.

raymon

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

Other parties would have been the same. I've no doubt that if Fine Gael had been in power for as long as Fianna Fáil, they'd have been just as shady and corrupt. They just didn't have as much opportunity as Fianna Fáil to get their snouts in the trough.

I don't buy into this "other parties would have been the same". A culture of dishonesty had developed specifically in Fianna Fail over many decades. The dishonesty and corruption in FF was far greater than anything before or since.

Im no fan right now of FG , Lab , SF or Independents , but this "they are all the same as Fianna Fail " narrative is not correct.

Every party has had bad eggs at some stage. ( example Lowry, Cosgrave, Devitt) but the Fianna Fail list is remarkably huge.

So all I am suggesting is Fianna Fail should start to educate their members in the area of corruption. It would be no harm if other parties did this too of course.

eigrod

raymon wrote: »

I don't buy into this "other parties would have been the same". A culture of dishonesty had developed specifically in Fianna Fail over many decades. The dishonesty and corruption in FF was far greater than anything before or since.

Im no fan right now of FG , Lab , SF or Independents , but this "they are all the same as Fianna Fail " narrative is not correct.

Every party has had bad eggs at some stage. ( example Lowry, Cosgrave, Devitt) but the Fianna Fail list is remarkably huge.

So all I am suggesting is Fianna Fail should start to educate their members in the area of corruption. It would be no harm if other parties did this too of course.

Agreed. And in FG's case, the crooks got booted out. In FF's case they got promoted.

feargale

raymon wrote: »

So all I am suggesting is Fianna Fail should start to educate their members in the area of corruption. It would be no harm if other parties did this too of course.

You'd be amazed at the uses corrupt people could put education to. How about a kick in the erse and a cell in Mountjoy?

touts

Isn't is a thin line between training people on unacceptable corrupt practices and thereby training people how to be corrupt?

And it isn't just Fianna Fail. A quick read of the Tribunal reports will show that. Never saw a property developer standing beside Bertie as he rang the bell to start the US stock exchange. The whole political system is corrupt and needs radical reform.

raymon

touts wrote: »

And it isn't just Fianna Fail. A quick read of the Tribunal reports will show that. .

Quite the opposite in fact. The Mahon report is specifically damning of FF.

touts

raymon wrote: »

Quite the opposite in fact. The Mahon report is specifically damning of FF.

I didn't say it wasn't FF I said it was not only FF. Or has history been revised to say Michael Lowery was always an independent TD even when he was a FG minister? FG haven't been as corrupt simply because they were not in power.

The whole Clinic system that says it is OK for a TD to "help" with planning permission for a house but not for multiple houses is corrupt.

raymon

touts wrote: »

I didn't say it wasn't FF I said it was not only FF. Or has history been revised to say Michael Lowery was always an independent TD even when he was a FG minister? FG haven't been as corrupt simply because they were not in power.

The whole Clinic system that says it is OK for a TD to "help" with planning permission for a house but not for multiple houses is corrupt.

I mentioned Lowry already in the " all parties have bad eggs" section above. You are correct he was FG.

Harry Angstrom

raymon wrote: »

I don't buy into this "other parties would have been the same". A culture of dishonesty had developed specifically in Fianna Fail over many decades.

This was kind of interesting at the time....

http://www.rte.ie/news/2001/0511/15055-finegael/

Harry Angstrom

And this..........

http://www.rte.ie/news/1999/0217/578-fitzgerald/

raymon

I really don't want to defend FG but come on , Fianna Fail really do take the prize in the game of truth.
Haughey, Lawlor , Cooper Flynn, Flynn, Ahern, , O Dea, Burke, Dunlop, o Brien, etc etc

In fact there are 3 cases in the courts right now concerning one FF senator, one ex FF minister and one ex FF county councillor. ( all innocent until proven guilty)

My point is that Fianna Fail can start to re-educate their members starting at the top.

It's nothing to be embarrassed about . Corporations train their employees all the time on ethics.

After FF have trained their people the other parties should follow suit.

touts

raymon wrote: »

I really don't want to defend FG but come on , Fianna Fail really do take the prize in the game of truth.
Haughey, Lawlor , Cooper Flynn, Flynn, Ahern, , O Dea, Burke, Dunlop, o Brien, etc etc

In fact there are 3 cases in the courts right now concerning one FF senator, one ex FF minister and one ex FF county councillor. ( all innocent until proven guilty)

My point is that Fianna Fail can start to re-educate their members starting at the top.

It's nothing to be embarrassed about . Corporations train their employees all the time on ethics.

After FF have trained their people the other parties should follow suit.

I don't want to defend FF (I'm more than happy to see them in a death spiral). However when you look back at FG we have question marks over a number of their ministers and TDs. Michael Lowery, Hugh Covney, Liam Cosgrave Jnr. And that was just the two years they were in power on the 20 year period where FF dominated. We can already see the behaviour of Reilly and Shatter and others currently in power and its clear the superior elitest attitude that got FF in trouble is not too far from the surface of FG. It is a flaw in the system. People turn up at a TDs clinic demanding that they sort out planning permission for their son but are shocked when that TD sorts out planning permission for a big developer. They look for the TD to get a medical card for their daughter but are outraged if that TD awards a big contract to a supporter. Where do we draw the line at corruption. Clearly it is somewhere between arranging planning permission for a one off house and arranging planning permission for a massive shopping centre. FG are less corrupt simply because they have had less time in power and therefore less opportunity to be corrupt.

We elect the best pothole fillers and coffin chasers and then expect them to somehow be able to run the country just by walking through the gates of Leinster House. The system is designed to return shady characters with a reputation for "fixing problems". What is needed is a radical reform of how ministers are appointed and a radical change of mind by the voter when selecting the best TD to potentially run the country.

raymon

touts wrote: »

I don't want to defend FF (I'm more than happy to see them in a death spiral). However when you look back at FG we have question marks over a number of their ministers and TDs. Michael Lowery, Hugh Covney, Liam Cosgrave Jnr. And that was just the two years they were in power on the 20 year period where FF dominated. We can already see the behaviour of Reilly and Shatter and others currently in power and its clear the superior elitest attitude that got FF in trouble is not too far from the surface of FG. It is a flaw in the system. People turn up at a TDs clinic demanding that they sort out planning permission for their son but are shocked when that TD sorts out planning permission for a big developer. They look for the TD to get a medical card for their daughter but are outraged if that TD awards a big contract to a supporter. Where do we draw the line at corruption. Clearly it is somewhere between arranging planning permission for a one off house and arranging planning permission for a massive shopping centre. FG are less corrupt simply because they have had less time in power and therefore less opportunity to be corrupt.

We elect the best pothole fillers and coffin chasers and then expect them to somehow be able to run the country just by walking through the gates of Leinster House. The system is designed to return shady characters with a reputation for "fixing problems". What is needed is a radical reform of how ministers are appointed and a radical change of mind by the voter when selecting the best TD to potentially run the country.

I don't disagree with you about the political system being wrong.
Ethics training and guidelines will help stamp this out.
Fianna Fail are in worst shape ethically in my opinion. That is the best place to start.

touts

raymon wrote: »

I don't disagree with you about the political system being wrong.
Ethics training and guidelines will help stamp this out.
Fianna Fail are in worst shape ethically in my opinion. That is the best place to start.

Part of me agrees with you but I can't see FF being in power anytime soon (if ever again). It's FG/Labour/Rebel Alliance for the next 7 years I suspect. Putting all the focus on fixing FF might be as useful as checking the kids armbands on the way home from the beach.

raymon

touts wrote: »

Part of me agrees with you but I can't see FF being in power anytime soon (if ever again). It's FG/Labour/Rebel Alliance for the next 7 years I suspect. Putting all the focus on fixing FF might be as useful as checking the kids armbands on the way home from the beach.

Fianna Fail luminary Francie o Brien wasn't in power when he was extracting money from an innocent victim.

I think you have a point though. Guidelines should be drawn up for what should and shouldn't be done at clinics and should be for every party.

It would do Fianna Fail no harm to shake off the shady dealer image that have earned.

For Reals

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

Other parties would have been the same. I've no doubt that if Fine Gael had been in power for as long as Fianna Fáil, they'd have been just as shady and corrupt. They just didn't have as much opportunity as Fianna Fáil to get their snouts in the trough.

That's a tired cop out and why we let crooks off.

For Reals

I believe it's in the nature of the party to be crooked and on the take. Any member who believes otherwise is simply wrong.

Harry Angstrom

For Reals wrote: »

That's a tired cop out and why we let crooks off.

Not tired, more realistic. Still no reason why we should go easy on them though, but most FG and Labour TD's probably wouldn't be all that keen to hang 'em high, just in case they might find themselves in a similar situation in the future.

For Reals

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

Not tired, more realistic. Still no reason why we should go easy on them though, but most FG and Labour TD's probably wouldn't be all that keen to hang 'em high, just in case they might find themselves in a similar situation in the future.

That's true. But I just feel when we completely give up the hope of an honest, do/say what they mean politician we're pretty f***ed morally and socially.

renegademaster

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cwCIkKFFR4

raymon

I forgot about this former FF councillor on remand .

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/former-ff-tds-son-remanded-on-charges-of-soliciting-someone-to-kill-a-garda-a-revenue-commissioner-and-an-accountant-29790109.html

That makes one ex FF Senator in jail and 3 other FFers going through the courts.

Come on Fianna Fail . Let's get this anti corruption training started.

nuac

Harry Angstrom,

Your last two posts seem to have halted this thread.

FG can do no wrong according to their shills. Therefore you should not e,g, put the words O'Brien and Lowry in the same sentence,

And as for failing to comply with employers obligations in FG Head office, incurring charges and surcharges of about £111,000 - shush, least said the better and all that

COYW

For Reals wrote: »

I believe it's in the nature of the party to be crooked and on the take. Any member who believes otherwise is simply wrong.

Bit of a sweeping generalization there. Nice bit of PR by FF here. I'm sure that it will earn them a few more votes.

raymon

nuac wrote: »

Harry Angstrom,

Your last two posts seem to have halted this thread.

FG can do no wrong according to their shills. Therefore you should not e,g, put the words O'Brien and Lowry in the same sentence,

And as for failing to comply with employers obligations in FG Head office, incurring charges and surcharges of about £111,000 - shush, least said the better and all that

Who are the shills ? Do you mean press officers and the like.?

For Reals

This is what the problem is. People will support them regardless, due to tradition and family ties, which is insanity. It's not Football where you're loyal to a team, it's running the country so choosing who you think is best over which party member your granny use to bang is okay.
Even though there's a laundry list of shysters and crooks, including aul' Dev himself, people talk, seemingly annually at this point, about cleaning up the party...I mean why? Why not a fresh start by people who have a similar ideology, (benefit of the doubt that there is one)?
Because the same loons will vote Fianna Fail regardless and they will never obtain power of any significance I guess.

Fianna Fail:
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein

Roll on the next generation of inept fraudsters and the next recession...

raymon

For Reals wrote: »

This is what the problem is. People will support them regardless, due to tradition and family ties, which is insanity. It's not Football where you're loyal to a team, it's running the country so choosing who you think is best over which party member your granny use to bang is okay.
Even though there's a laundry list of shysters and crooks, including aul' Dev himself, people talk, seemingly annually at this point, about cleaning up the party...I mean why? Why not a fresh start by people who have a similar ideology, (benefit of the doubt that there is one)?
Because the same loons will vote Fianna Fail regardless and they will never obtain power of any significance I guess.

Fianna Fail:
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein

Roll on the next generation of inept fraudsters and the next recession...

I believe that some in FF may want to change their dishonest course. I think with a bit of anti corruption training , rules and guidelines they could eventually have less corrupt members.

For Reals

raymon wrote: »

I believe that some in FF may want to change their dishonest course. I think with a bit of anti corruption training , rules and guidelines they could eventually have less corrupt members.

But that's been the talk for generations, its not going to happen. People who commit acts against the Irish people, which is what these moral and/or legal slips boil down to, you can be pretty damn sure they are aware of it. Bertie needs no training to know he's a shyster, neither would have Haughey or the like.

Conmaicne Mara

They won't have to bring in any outside experts anyway.

For Forks Sake

raymon wrote: »

I believe that some in FF may want to change their dishonest course. I think with a bit of anti corruption training , rules and guidelines they could eventually have less corrupt members.

Short of some sort of ethnic cleansing, you're not going to root the corruption out of FF.

The notion of them sitting down tor a training seminar and some guidelines is, frankly, laughable.

raymon

Maybe the new face of Fianna Fail Colm Keaveney can give a talk at the Ard Fheis to convince them to finally address the corruption he has been talking about for the last few years.

For Reals

raymon wrote: »

Maybe the new face of Fianna Fail Colm Keaveney can give a talk at the Ard Fheis to convince them to finally address the corruption he has been talking about for the last few years.

Yeah, the man who shat on his own principles to avoid the oncoming electoral backlash and get in bed with his arch nemesis to save his own ass.....sure
He'll fit in well though.