UL Grad Med Course

Agrif

Hi,

I got a 55 in Gamsat UK which might get me into UL forgradmed if the points don’t go up next summer. I was hoping to get enough for Dublin.I would consider taking UL if offered but I am slightly concerned about thecourse’s reputation and the way it’s organised. I’ve heard that it’s very muchGP focussed, but my ideal career would be in ENT or general medicine and I’d beworried that a degree from UL would not be looked on as favourably as othercolleges when applying to get on those schemes.

Also I’d be worried about the PBL structure and that I wouldbe totally lost, especially in relation to science.

Is anyone that’s graduated from UL doing anything other thanGP?Is PBL more difficult for non-science grads?

Thanks

chanste

I'm an intern now having graduated from UL.

PBL is tough going and you will have to work hard, but I really can't imagine that the traditional way of teaching wouldn't be difficult too. I would think if you haven't done a science before then things will be harder still, but not so much so that it is not feasible. Many people in this situation are doing just fine.

As regards all UL grads doing GP, I'm not sure what gave you that idea but that is simply not the case. Most of my year have other plans. The year ahead too. We spend 18 wks on rotation as part of our 3rd year in a GP placement which is a lot compared to other universities. I personally found the GPs I was placed with to have a far more personal interest in addressing your weaknesses and actually helping, than any of the hospital based consultants I was attached too. This can only be good for training, but then that was just my personal experience.

Once you graduate you kinda realize that publications are the currency for career advancement. Where you studied doesn't matter as much, and given that UL only opened its medical school in the past few years I think it's reputation has yet to be established. I certainly don't feel like I'm any worse off that graduates of other colleges that I am working with. It would seem that so far the hospitals/patients/consultants are happy with us.

dropping_bombs

Hey chanste, would you mind describing how a PBL session would work? I'm a little unsure of how the session runs! Also does UL offer opportunity for research in labs over the summer break, and if so is there much success in getting publications out of these short placements? Hopefully you have time to reply thanks!

bohemian2010

Wouldn't worry about the reputation of your respective alma mater, once you qualify all the consultants think about are whether you've passed the post graduate exams, what publications you have, and also personal attributes such as dependability, work ethic etc.... So if a UL graduate who has their exams, a few publications, and does his job satisfactorily will be held in higher esteem then a graduate from another more " established" schools who doesn't have those attributes, trust me the further you move from graduation the less it matters

dublindoctor

I'm currently a UL student and I had similar reservations about UL before starting my degree here, and honestly I can say that it was just ignorance on my part to put down the university as substandard, it's only different from the others in respect to it's PBL structure.

In relation to PBL, you get a new case everyweek and from that you learn physiology, pathology, anatomy etc in relation to the specific patient case that week. It is definitely alot of work and can be a bit stressful at times but overall you end up having more free time as you dont have 8/9 hours of lectures everyday preventing you from studying, so It can make your life a bit more manageable in that respect, however, that has just been my experience, but judging from my colleagues it seems similar as most of us take weekends off, have part time jobs etc.

I also have friends doing med in UCD, RCSI and UCC and the material/standard of learning is much the same, UL is without a doubt more hands on in terms of training you clinically rather than academically than the other colleges.

As far as I am aware UL was originally set up as a GP focused medical school, however once commencing the course, it became clear that students were not necessarily there solely for GP training and things were quickly changed, so it is not the case that is produces Doctors for GP training despite having a slightly longer GP based rotation in 3rd year, so I think that may be where that reputation is coming from.

Hope this helps!

IrishSkyBoxer

Hey Dublindoc,

Just a quick question?
How does the anatomy work? As I heard it only involves one thirty minute lecture a week?
Also how do the exams correlate with the gp delivered lectures?
I had heard that there was almost no correlation between examined material and material delivered in lectures by non-faculty staff?
Also, how is microbiology and biochemistry taught? I heard these subjects are not covered adequately from the LOs?

dublindoctor

IrishSkyBoxer wrote: »

Hey Dublindoc,

Just a quick question?
How does the anatomy work? As I heard it only involves one thirty minute lecture a week?
Also how do the exams correlate with the gp delivered lectures?
I had heard that there was almost no correlation between examined material and material delivered in lectures by non-faculty staff?
Also, how is microbiology and biochemistry taught? I heard these subjects are not covered adequately from the LOs?

Hey IrishSkyBoxer,

These are not quick questions haha. When you get the case, you get the specific LO's that go with them. You also get a set of 'minicases' in relation to the case which is aimed at teaching the anatomy. After you have (or should) the minicases done you have 3x30min tutorials (2 on anatomy and 1 on histology) to reinforce the anatomy you have done and ensure you have learned the correct stuff.

The lectures we get from consultants/gp's/scientists are just to reinforce or cover topics that we do ourselves in the LOs. You don't get examined on the lectures per say, as they are to help/answer questions you have in relation to LO's so anything examined is form the LO's which have been aided by the various lectures you get (sorry if that does not make sense, ask again).

We have had microbiology lectures, and had labs, and we have had biochem lectures aswell. It may not be enough for some people, but the joys of PBL is that it is self directed learning haha.

Any more questions?

IrishSkyBoxer

dublindoctor wrote: »

Hey IrishSkyBoxer,

These are not quick questions haha. When you get the case, you get the specific LO's that go with them. You also get a set of 'minicases' in relation to the case which is aimed at teaching the anatomy. After you have (or should) the minicases done you have 3x30min tutorials (2 on anatomy and 1 on histology) to reinforce the anatomy you have done and ensure you have learned the correct stuff.

The lectures we get from consultants/gp's/scientists are just to reinforce or cover topics that we do ourselves in the LOs. You don't get examined on the lectures per say, as they are to help/answer questions you have in relation to LO's so anything examined is form the LO's which have been aided by the various lectures you get (sorry if that does not make sense, ask again).

We have had microbiology lectures, and had labs, and we have had biochem lectures aswell. It may not be enough for some people, but the joys of PBL is that it is self directed learning haha.

Any more questions?

Thanks for the reply, I think you've helped clarify some things for me.

So essentially the lectures themselves aren't relevant to exams as per a normal undergrad didactic programme might be? so you could not bother going to lectures at all. It sounds like you could skip pbl and still pass so long as you had the LOs and learned them in your own time? what is it you are actually paying for so lol?

Would there be much passing of notes between years, example could I get the minicases off someone in the year above and just rote learn the answers to save me the hassle of doing it myself?

Does the programme prepare you well for the USMLE exams?

Also with regards to third and fourth year, how do the rotations pan out?

One criticism I have heard is that in the likes of UCD, you rotate through all specialites and subspecialties - eg a few weeks in cardio, nephro, resp, gi and make sure that you have been exposed to everything in internal medicine.

However I have heard that in UL you could spend nine weeks doing geriatrics in third year, then in fourth year you might get two weeks each in derm, neruo and infectious disease and so essentially a student could go through the whole programme without having been exposed to all the basic medical specialties.

And is it true you do 18 weeks in GP? or is that optional? 18 weeks seems excessive? I read in dublin they do two weeks max.

Thanks again dublin doctor

MicraBoy

IrishSkyBoxer wrote: »

One criticism I have heard is that in the likes of UCD, you rotate through all specialites and subspecialties - eg a few weeks in cardio, nephro, resp, gi and make sure that you have been exposed to everything in internal medicine.

However I have heard that in UL you could spend nine weeks doing geriatrics in third year, then in fourth year you might get two weeks each in derm, neruo and infectious disease and so essentially a student could go through the whole programme without having been exposed to all the basic medical specialties.

That's not really true. In UCD Medicine you do 12 wks in total. The first 6wks will consist of 3wks in main teaching attached to one team (so could be Resp, Cardiology, Renal, Haematology, Rheumatology), and 3wks in a peripheral hospital attached to another team. For example I did 3wks on Renal and 3wks Gastroenterology. The point is to learn about general medicine not particularly the specific specialty you are on.

The second 6wks is a mix of wks on specialties like Emergency, Radiology, Anesthetics etc. So in fact you can go through the whole thing without spending a week on many of the core sub-specialties.

You do 12wks of Surgery also but tend to rotate week to week between the sub-specialties so cover most of them by the end.

GP and Med. El. is a separate 6wk rotation after you have completed Medicine and Surgery.

dublindoctor

IrishSkyBoxer wrote: »

Thanks for the reply, I think you've helped clarify some things for me.

So essentially the lectures themselves aren't relevant to exams as per a normal undergrad didactic programme might be? so you could not bother going to lectures at all. It sounds like you could skip pbl and still pass so long as you had the LOs and learned them in your own time? what is it you are actually paying for so lol?

Would there be much passing of notes between years, example could I get the minicases off someone in the year above and just rote learn the answers to save me the hassle of doing it myself?

Does the programme prepare you well for the USMLE exams?

Also with regards to third and fourth year, how do the rotations pan out?

One criticism I have heard is that in the likes of UCD, you rotate through all specialites and subspecialties - eg a few weeks in cardio, nephro, resp, gi and make sure that you have been exposed to everything in internal medicine.

However I have heard that in UL you could spend nine weeks doing geriatrics in third year, then in fourth year you might get two weeks each in derm, neruo and infectious disease and so essentially a student could go through the whole programme without having been exposed to all the basic medical specialties.

And is it true you do 18 weeks in GP? or is that optional? 18 weeks seems excessive? I read in dublin they do two weeks max.

Thanks again dublin doctor

Yeah, you are not tested on the lectures as a didactic course would, they just compliment your own self direct learning (LO's). Haha, yes i often ask what am i paying for, but it is a PBL self directed course, and the PBL sessions aim to teach you to problem solve through cases to get you thinking how you would approach patients, diagnoses etc and from each PBL session they steer your in the direction of what information you need in regards to ethics, law, medicine, biochem, micro etc etc.

Yeah there is alot of notes passing between first and second years so yeah you can get the minicases and just study them. No programme prepares you for USMLE, they are a completely unique set of exams, but UL does run a course in second year that does the USMLE course work with students 2 evenings a week.

In regards to rotation that is a question you should just email the school about, it depends on the team, hospital etc that you are placed into.

eire_245

theres the UL gems timetable

pretty safe to say you get about as much clinical exposure as is possible in 4 years, and people giving out about 18 weeks GP, its still 18 weeks of clinical exposure to a huge variety of conditions all the while improving every aspect of your medical knowledge and clinical skills

Nonoperational

I think I'd go mad if I had to do 18 weeks of GP! Is it all in the one practice?

eire_245

Nonoperational wrote: »

I think I'd go mad if I had to do 18 weeks of GP! Is it all in the one practice?

really why?? do you not find medicine interesting?? haha its only 18 weeks, i find all aspects of medicine fascinating and love learning about all the conditions, and the opportunity to get all my clincial exams absolutely nailed before final year while getting quizzed on differentials and treatment plans and tested one-on-one by a fully qualified doctor is quite appealing!

and all in the one practice im afraid! its luck of the draw, you could either get a rural placement or a city centre multi-disciplinary practice with a few different doctors!

Nonoperational

I do of course find medicine interesting, but I find GP to be far less interesting than hospital medicine. Depends on the GP I guess...

eire_245

Nonoperational wrote: »

I do of course find medicine interesting, but I find GP to be far less interesting than hospital medicine. Depends on the GP I guess...

yea definately depends on the GP, and obviously how enthusiastic the student is towards getting the most out of the placement!

im obviously not familiar but how many weeks of hospital medicine rotations do the other grad med courses get??

Nonoperational

Ah ya, I wouldn't have any real love for GP so that is bound to colour it for me. Do you get to see your own patients over the course of the 18 weeks or is it all sit ins?

In my 4 week program the rotations are 4 week blocks. There is one 4 week GP block in 3rd year and one 4 week block in final year. The rest are hospital placements beginning half way through 2nd year. Again, some are better than others.

eire_245

a lot of it depends on the GP and Student really again (we were always told to go in from day one and impress the gp, as in know all your examinations and give the GP confidence etc and they will let you do more)

most gps mix between letting you take histories on your own and then presenting to the GP before they see the patient and then on the sit ins carrying out the physical exams and presenting your findings in front of the patients and the doctor questions you on your differentials etc.

but as you know that can vary between practises