EU Commission vs Firearms ownership !

whydave

Gatling wrote: »

Been all over various forums and facebook an EU commission white paper calls for the restriction on firearms and magazines and so on ,then they want restricted sale and ownership of airsoft including an outright ban ,
Been its only a white paper I wouldn't be actually worried ,just something to think about

See below for details

http://www.all4shooters.com/en/articles/law/2013/EU-proposed-gun-ban/?p=1

read this on the airsoft fourms and thought shooters may want to read it.

David

yubabill1

Please contact the EU as per the link;
sent this myself

Why do you think that restricting the use of firearms by the most law-abiding sector of society (licensed firearms holders) will increase the security of EU residents?

valerossi

Our firearms are safe, nobody will take them despite every animal rights activist best attempt, only idiotic boys acting out computer games trying to be snipers and irresponsible handling and discharge by the inexperienced and lads hunting with toy guns are a realistic threat.
I think a better course for first time gun ownership is badly needed theoretically a lad can buy a 308 and not no how to clean or shoot the thing.

tac foley

I have to say that the system in place almost everywhere else, where a noob has to time-serve a period - three to six months here in UK before you can apply for a license - has a lot to commend it. During that time the noob gets to shoot all the many types and calibres of firearms owned by club members, as well as using the club guns, and are taught by specialists - we call them 'instructors' [now there's a novel idea] on safe-handling and the law regarding gun ownership and use. Here in UK the gun clubs have an NRA-approved mini-test that is a great idea to have to pass, but in Canada the test is compulsory - fail it and you don't get any further with your application to own firearms.

It's no use trotting out the excuse that 'Irish gun clubs don't do that kind of thing', when it is readily apparent that such a process is much-needed. Sure, there are many versions of the so-called familiarisation course, required, in one form or another, by many Supers, but IMO half-a-day spent learning about your gun is no substitute for six-months of weekly indoctrination into safe practices.

tac

IRLConor

tac foley wrote: »

I have to say that the system in place almost everywhere else, where a noob has to time-serve a period - three to six months here in UK before you can apply for a license - has a lot to commend it. During that time the noob gets to shoot all the many types and calibres of firearms owned by club members, as well as using the club guns, and are taught by specialists - we call them 'instructors' [now there's a novel idea] on safe-handling and the law regarding gun ownership and use. Here in UK the gun clubs have an NRA-approved mini-test that is a great idea to have to pass, but in Canada the test is compulsory - fail it and you don't get any further with your application to own firearms.

It's no use trotting out the excuse that 'Irish gun clubs don't do that kind of thing', when it is readily apparent that such a process is much-needed. Sure, there are many versions of the so-called familiarisation course, required, in one form or another, by many Supers, but IMO half-a-day spent learning about your gun is no substitute for six-months of weekly indoctrination into safe practices.

tac

I can see that working here for some target shooting clubs (the ones that have some/enough "club guns" to facilitate probationer members) and I guess that it could be made to work for the others. The two college clubs already work like this with many members shooting for years before buying their own guns.

It would be a bit more difficult of a transition for the hunting side of Irish shooting. (Not necessarily a bad idea, just more of a change to the way they'd do things which might take some time.)

How does it work for hunters in the UK? Does your average village gun club have club firearms for use by prospective members? Are there instructors there? Or do the rules only apply to target shooting? I understand that the rules for shotguns are a little different in the UK, but what about rifle shooters?

Grizzly 45

http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/what-is-new/news/news/2013/20131021_01_en.htm

This is the EU working papers on this from miss Malmstrom.


http://www.firearms-united.eu/make-changes
A European movement of gun owners against this.

http://www.firearms-united.eu/download/firearms_united_letter_to_malstrom_eu_en.pdf

A pretty good letter that each and every gunownerin the EUSSR...Er EU should be firing off to this woman to make her justify her calls.
I know thats a waste of time posting that last one here as we are certainly 5%ers here.:rolleyes:

Jerrystevens

Connor the 'gun club' is very much an irish thing:) the complete opposite is in operation in the uk the landowner knows who exactly is shooting and hunting on his land , not like here where .anybody in the gun club can be on it .
I spent a long number of years shooting in the uk and to my mind the system there is much more reliable/stable as you have to work or pay for your sport building up trust and confidence with those who you shoot with . the attitude is completely different you won't get groups of shooters on land where they have no permission in the uk or at least not for long
the mentoring system for rifles is another example and the inspection of land and granting or not of particular calibres for various quarry is another
on the whole i think the irish system is full of holes especially regarding full bore rifles as the example above illustrates .I was in a gun shop last year when a lad came in to collect his deer rifle he didn't even know how to load the blind magazine yet was off to 'kill' a deer that afternoon lol he had by his own admission never shot a centrefire rifle

tac foley

IRLConor wrote: »

How does it work for hunters in the UK? Does your average village gun club have club firearms for use by prospective members? Are there instructors there? Or do the rules only apply to target shooting? I understand that the rules for shotguns are a little different in the UK, but what about rifle shooters?

Let's take your questions one at a time, and then I promise I'll go away before I p*ss too many more people off.

1. Here in UK, game shooters are called 'stalkers/deerstalkers, rather than hunters. Hunters are very large horses, mostly Irish-bred where I live.

Game shooters here in UK who are new to the sport have to be mentored - as Jerry notes in the post above - over the land they are allowed to shoot for around three to six months by an experienced shooter who is already 'in place' there. They also are advised to undertake the various levels of training to shoot game that are offered by the British Deer Society - Levels 1, 2 and 3. Some locations insist on Level 1 before they let you on the hill. Here in UK a noob is allowed on an estate shoot to actually carry a gun with very close - one-to-one supervision - by an experienced shooter from the estate authority. Only after they have satified their mentor are they allowed to make application for a firearms certificate to cover the rifle that they want. The named mentor will act as referee in this case.

This is one way to get into deer-stalking here in UK - http://www.countrysportscotland.com/beginners/deer-stalking-for-beginners/ - run by the BASC.

So nobody actually gets to buy a gun on the off-chance that they might just like to go and pot a few deer. The 'good reason' in law for you to be allowed to acquire and possess a suitable firearm is 'deer-stalking'. Prove that you've ticked the boxes and got the papers to prove it and you are away.

2. There is no such animal as a village gun club here in UK - only in Switzerland, parts of Germany and Austria do villages often have their own clubs of this kind. Instead, there are around 2500 gun clubs - look on google to see them all listed.

However, I'd say that 99.99% of ALL gun clubs in the UK have a selection of club guns for the use of noobs. Our club has a couple of .308Win, a couple of .303, a couple of .223, a couple of lever-action and half a dozen .22 of one kind or another. However, most of us also take a few guns along for noobs to use and get the feel of the different kinds of actions. Everything I have has been used by noobs many times, except my Long-barrelled revolver - only the license-holder is permitted to shoot such a firearm.

As an aside, there is no such thing as a prospective member here. We have twelve guest days per year, authorised by the home Office, where full members can bring their buddies, significant other or whatever along to show them what they really get up to on a weekend. As well, prospective members are steered our way by the NRA, NSRA, police or local gun-store after making enquiries as to how they might get into shooting and how to start the ball rolling. Most clubs in UK have either a three or six-month probationary period that is compulsory for ANYBODY new to shooting who wants to take up shooting a licenseable firearm. Fireams Certificate [called an FAC here] holders moving into the area might get excepted from this process, but it's up to the club committee to decide that one. Remember that in UK air weapons used in target shooting - ISSF or FT - do NOT need to be licensed, unlike Ireland, North and South. Having joined as a probie, you are now entitled and LEGAL to shoot anything that the club has, or that any other member might give you to shoot. However, you cannot apply for a FAC until you have completed your probationary period and are in possession of a FAC. You may buy ammunition, but it must be used on the range and cannot be taken away by you. If you don't use it all up on the day, then it is marked with your name and stored until next time.

During the probie time, you get to know all the ins and outs of safe-handling, the law, and what to do if something goes t*ts-up - misfire drills and so on. Not only that, but the other club members get a look at YOU, and will certainly give their impressions of your behaviour and attitude around live firearms when the time comes for you to be a full-time member - always supposing that your haven't screwed up meanwhile. With your time up, and with the advice of the club secretary, you can fill out your application form for a FAC, listing the four or five [that's usual] firearms that you wish to acquire, and the amount of ammunition that goes with them. The club secretary will endorse your application, and two other people, NOT members of the club, police or judiciary - are required to say what a fantastic law-abiding person you are, having known you for two years or more.

IF, on the other paw, it is the opinion of the club secretary that you haven't shown sufficient enthusiasm, common-sense, social responsiblity et al, to be allowed to procede to ownership of these potentially-lethal firearms, he will tell you so, and will refuse to endorse your appllication. In any event, probie or not - ONE single act of errant stupidity/brain fart - of any kind - whilst in charge of a live-firing firearm WILL get you ejected from the range/club on the spot on a permanent basis.

Remember that here in UK, for target shooting of any kind, club membership is mandatory, and is the de facto rationale and 'good reason' behind you having firearms in the fust place. Get kicked out of the club for stoopid if you are a probie, and it costs you nothing, except the amount it cost you for provisional membership. But getting kicked out of the club for 'stoopid' or acting the hoon with a gun, is a lot more serious, and WILL cost you your FAC and the subsequent loss of ALL your Section 1 rifled fireams on it. If you are a shotgunner, they might also revoke THAT license too.

At this point, you are stuffed.

The club secretary is required by law to inform the licensing authorities of his decision, just in case you try your luck at another club. If you are a provisional member, and do not yet have an FAC, and you decide that we were unfair to you and had a down on you because you were ginger [I was, when I had hair], there is a question on the FAC application form for such an eventuality - 'have you ever been refused an FAC for ANY reason - if so, state the reason'. Making a false declaration on an FAC application form - a 'sworn declaration Crown document' is very serious, and is in fact, a crime, not a misdemeanor, and an land you in jail for up to five years for 'attempting to obtain live-firing firearms by an act of criminal deception'.

As for instructors, well, most clubs have NRA/NSRA trained and authorised instructors, or simply those long-time shooters who take it upon themselves to become de facto 'club instructors' by default and experience. Remember, too, that here we UK we have a VERY much larger proportion of the male population who have been in the Armed Forces than you do in RoI. There are over three hundred members in our club, and, from my own knowledge, there are at least fifty ex-servicemen and half a dozen currently serving. All who have been SNCOs, and many former officers like me who WERE SNCOs at one time, will have done the full range of military instructional training on shooting and firearms handling on a three-week course, including range management up to and including a live-in company or battalion-level shoot, so I think you can say that the expertise really IS there in place for the benefit of the club and its members, new and old. Add to that number the approximately one third of the club membership who are game-shooters as well as target shooters here in UK [three club members are also PH over in Namibia and Tanzania] the many professional shooters - game wardens, pest controllers and so on, three gun-dealers and two FEOs - and you can see that there will never be any shortage of advice and help in a club like ours. Incidentally, our club is one of Sporting UK's national nominated facilities.

As for me, I am an NRA instructor for conventional rifle and pistol as well as black powder firearms, and a BDSA instructor for shooters or prospective shooters with disabilites, except for blind or vision-impaired shooters, who are mostly air weapons oriented.

Hope that helps.

Any more questions are better asked via PM, as this is an Irish site, where none of the above means anything at all, except to those in the North, and I'm sure to be getting a flea in the 'earole for this little lot.

Best

tac

PS - in case it is not clear, here in UK it is the person who is licensed, not the gun. I have currently eighteen Section 1 [rifled] firearms on my FAC. The thought of having eighteen seperate licenses - one for each gun, and all the different ammunition allowances - all needing replacements at different times with three to six months wait for renewal is enough to give me the shibbers.

Witcher

It's a miracle anyone bothers their arse getting into shooting in the UK at all.

Thought here was bad..fcuk me:pac:

IRLConor

Thanks for the detailed reply tac. To be honest, most of the target shooting induction process you describe is very familiar to me as it's pretty much the same in DURC where I do a lot of my shooting. In fact, most of the UK target shooting stuff doesn't sound too different to the target shooting situation here. Minor differences really in the grand scheme of things.

The game/vermin shooting side of things appears to be very different though, as far as I can tell.

EWQuinn

There are well meaning people on both sides of the issue. Then there are people who just like to control for the sake of controlling, whether it be a firearm or a 20oz soda.

While the UK system as described by Tac Foley is very rigorous, some would say excessively so, based on my background I have a fond place in my heart for good training. Nothing at all wrong with ensuring folks have some fundamentals.

I am not a certified instructor in anything, but when my 1911 ranges were running on installation, all the "ash & trash" battalions would send their hard cases to our range to qualify. If time allowed we would have the subcal devices and .22 LR is always the best place to start for handgun.

We always forecast some extra ammo for them, and their commanders would put in a good word for us with chain of command. I was seemingly always the one selected to run grenade and mine ranges too :eek:

tac foley

Mr Quinn - the system is rigourous, I agree, but necessary nonetheless in a country where firearms are unusual instead of the norm.

If you look up beyond the 48th, you'll see that in Canada we do the same thing with regard to firearms training and familiarisation prior to applying for your PAL - except but in Canada it is a set of federally-mandated tests which must be successfully passed - written and practical.

tac

EWQuinn

I like it, I would like to go through a program like that, would find it fun and informative. I don't think it should be a prerequisite for ownership in America, but it ought to be much more highly encouraged by the firearms organizations and industry. Would also make for some more employment too.

I went through a week or 2 (forget how long) of hunter safety training in Colorado years ago, required for the hunting license. It was really very good, instruction was outstanding, and I learned well the lessons they taught. However like many Americans I had a lot of training by my Dad to reinforce it.

Drexl Spivey

Is it worth backing: http://www.firearms-united.eu/make-changes ?

tac foley

Drexl Spivey wrote: »

Is it worth backing: http://www.firearms-united.eu/make-changes ?

Well, I've just read through a few pages of their blurb, and while I admire their aims, their use of the English language is appalling, bearing in mind that it is THE language of interchange within the entire EU.

Quote - 'We prodlu may present a new article published lastly by all4shooters.com organization, about the Firearms United movement. As we put a lot of work and free time in our purose, we are proud to see that there are organizations which apreciate our effort that much.

We are pleased to read words like that from other pro-gun activists in Europe, and what is more important - their support is a great step forward providing us with more voices for the cause on our continent.'

Apart from the awful spelling, the syntax is dire.

I've emailed them with a few references, as well as an offer to translate whatever language it was written in [providing it's not Romantsch - my Romantsch is not so good] into correct English, since it's hard to determine quite where their base operation is located.

Sign up if you want, so long as you realise that by doing so, you put yourself 'on the map' for organisations such as NSA and GCHQ, not that we are not there already from simply being on a gun-related forum like this. Like any form of gun-related registration - either by interest or participation in shooting sports - simply expressing an interest is a flag-waver that shouts 'HERE I AM, COME AND GET MY GUNS!'

Me, I'm waiting out, pro tem.

tac

Witcher

This is the Commission's report for those interested. Breakdown of how the survey was answered towards the end.

http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/what-is-new/public-consultation/2013/docs/consultation_026/report_on_consultation_including_annex_en.pdf

I answered them all with 'Not at all'...seems most did the same:pac: They'll probably claim the survey was skewed and go with 'Much more EU action needed'.

wexfordman2

Blay wrote: »

This is the Commission's report for those interested. Breakdown of how the survey was answered towards the end.

http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/what-is-new/public-consultation/2013/docs/consultation_026/report_on_consultation_including_annex_en.pdf

I answered them all with 'Not at all'...seems most did the same:pac: They'll probably claim the survey was skewed and go with 'Much more EU action needed'.

Some interesting response selected from Ireland at the bottom of page two and top of page 3. Did the antis get a shout in?

sfakiaman

Pity we cant access the submissions by organisations.

tac foley

'Collection of fired bullets'.............................this was the system employed in Northern Ireland where guns were taken off injured or dead police officers, or the military, by the terrorist, and subsequently used in the commission of other crimes either in Northern Ireland or elswhere in yhe UK.

First, though, you have to 'catch your bullet'....

As with the Irish respondents, I wonder who they were in UK advocating more stringent laws? We have, here in yUK, just ONE pressure 'group', the so-called 'Gun Control Network. In spite of the glorious name, it consists, right now, of Mr and Mrs Robert Marshall-Andrews and their budgie.

tac

yubabill1

clearly the gun control lobby got recognition way beyond their response rate.

You will not hear anything much in the media about this, unless they find anything anti-gun to crow about.

as Europe is controlled largely by left-wing governments, don't expect your views to count.

tac foley

yubabill1 wrote: »

clearly the gun control lobby got recognition way beyond their response rate.

You will not hear anything much in the media about this, unless they find anything anti-gun to crow about.

as Europe is controlled largely by left-wing governments, don't expect your views to count.

True - the only thing that will be counted is YOU and your response.

tac

'Molon labe!'

yubabill1

tac foley wrote: »

True - the only thing that will be counted is YOU and your response.

tac

'Molon labe!'

LOL

Maybe they'll lose that data, too. Shhhhhh.....

IRLConor

tac foley wrote: »

'Molon labe!'

A very dangerous thing to say in Ireland. The answer would almost certainly be "OK then, we will!"

yubabill1

IRLConor wrote: »

A very dangerous thing to say in Ireland. The answer would almost certainly be "OK then, we will!"

They will?

They ARE and have been for several years.

Ahh, Ireland.....where they can't open your snail mail but all your digital movements and emails are stored permanently, just in case you might commit a crime in the future.

Sure if you don't break the law, you have nothing to fear; unless you're a night club owner in Donegal, or fall foul of an ambitious Garda who knows how to use a coffee grinder, or leave 4000 euros lying around a police station or.....etc

tac foley

It's a sad thing when your next door neighbours - a Finnish couple and their daughter - comment that having visited Ireland a couple of years ago, they were astonished at the way that the police were viewed by their housekeeper in Galway. 'Almost like a police state' were their actual words.

How sad is that?

tac

yubabill1

Just one point;

The EU Commission is an unelected body made up of civil servants.

They are dictating laws to elected local democracies.