A Winter largely off the bike

Inquitus

Work has conspired to send me travelling most of the time between now and March.

This means that I am getting alot of time in the Gym in various hotel's but not much time out on the bike.

It's obviously not fair on my Wife and Kids to be away all week and then disappear out on the bike at the weekends.

I find the exercise bike in the Gym to be a horrible experience and cannot really muster much more than 20 minutes on it.

That said I have been doing a good deal of cardio work, rowing, running, elliptical, as well as alot of core exercises. My weight is hovering around its all time (post 30 anyways) low of 74kg and my general Cardio Fitness is at or close to it's best in recent years.

How much will the lack of bike time punish me when the A4 Season kicks off, is it a case of a few weeks to get the Legs back or will it really hinder my progress? taking into account I bring a really high level of Cardio fitness to the table when the season kicks off.

Harrybelafonte

I'm going to guess a few races at worst and you'd be straight in there. You sound like you'll have very few problems, all I'd advise is not to stress about it. Life is life and it comes first. You're light and fit, you'll be fine.

Lusk_Doyle

Inquitus wrote: »

Work has conspired to send me travelling most of the time between now and March.

This means that I am getting alot of time in the Gym in various hotel's but not much time out on the bike.

It's obviously not fair on my Wife and Kids to be away all week and then disappear out on the bike at the weekends.

I find the exercise bike in the Gym to be a horrible experience and cannot really muster much more than 20 minutes on it.

That said I have been doing a good deal of cardio work, rowing, running, elliptical, as well as alot of core exercises. My weight is hovering around its all time (post 30 anyways) low of 74kg and my general Cardio Fitness is at or close to it's best in recent years.

How much will the lack of bike time punish me when the A4 Season kicks off, is it a case of a few weeks to get the Legs back or will it really hinder my progress? taking into account I bring a really high level of Cardio fitness to the table when the season kicks off.

Don't sweat it. Sit in behind me for the first few races and I'll shelter you so you can come around and contest the finishes (despite what you tried to do to me earlier in the year!) :pac:

CptMackey

I find the rowing machine and lunges to be a good substitute for cycling. It helps me but I find that my climbing suffers.

On the rolling road tho my cardio is much better and the weight stays off.

daragh_

I think you should avoid all forms of exercise and concentrate on eating pies and cake until at least April.

In fact, I recommend this course of action to EVERYONE who is racing A4 next year.

j0hn1

If you're spending so much time in the gym why not build your quads? - make you a savage for the hills
Leg Press
Smyth Machine
Squats
Step Ups using free weights
If doing that you should probably do a small bit of hamstring curls and knee extensions just to keep everything in balance

Harrybelafonte

j0hn1 wrote: »

If you're spending so much time in the gym why not build your quads? - make you a savage for the hills
Leg Press
Smyth Machine
Squats
Step Ups using free weights
If doing that you should probably do a small bit of hamstring curls and knee extensions just to keep everything in balance

I don't think this is true tbh, or else all the trackies would be beating roadies up climbs.

j0hn1

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

I don't think this is true tbh, or else all the trackies would be beating roadies up climbs.

Might it do any harm?
When it comes round to time to sit on the bike again would he have been better served spending time on say the elliptical machine or working on his quads?
When spending so much time in the gym a mix between cardio and resistance would be better for the bike than cardio only.

petethedrummer

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

I don't think this is true tbh, or else all the trackies would be beating roadies up climbs.

You'll have to revisit your reasoning. Two types of athletes, with different muscle fibre composition (among other things), therefore different outcomes for the same exercise.

What you'd have to ask is what does an endurance athlete gain(if anything) from doing weights? Forget what a track athlete gains, that's obvious.

And what way do you perform weight training to maximize the gains (if there are any)?

And does weight training only increase strength?

Harrybelafonte

petethedrummer wrote: »

You'll have to revisit your reasoning. Two types of athletes, with different muscle fibre composition (among other things), therefore different outcomes for the same exercise.

What you'd have to ask is what does an endurance athlete gain(if anything) from doing weights? Forget what a track athlete gains, that's obvious.

And what way do you perform weight training to maximize the gains (if there are any)?

And does weight training only increase strength?

I'll revisit it if you explain the different muscle fibre composition? Use Martyn Irvine as an example maybe? I hope we're not talking slow twitch vs fast twitch and you're not thinking only of sprinters on track.

Harrybelafonte

To be clear, I believe John01's statement that having powerful quads would "make you a savage for the hills" is incorrect.

My statement about trackies was made to argue that powerful quads do not necessarily a climber make. Trackies are not all sprinters and though some can make short work of shorter drags, I can't think of any who are good on longer climbs or hills.

Inquitus

I am pretty sure neither of these quad monsters can climb for ****!

slideshow bob

petethedrummer wrote: »

What you'd have to ask is what does an endurance athlete gain(if anything) from doing weights?

Been listening to a good bit of Tim Noakes and Philip Maffetone on various podcasts. Both advocate "small but very, very powerful muscles" in endurance athletes so that each stride (or rotation) generates maximum force.

petethedrummer wrote: »

And what way do you perform weight training to maximize the gains (if there are any)?

Maffetone recomends lifting largest weight possible for six reps (so a seventh would be very difficult) and doing this a few times a day to build strength whilst avoiding building muscle mass.

I'll let you know in about 6 months how my experiment of one works out

Lusk_Doyle

Inquitus wrote: »

I am pretty sure neither of these quad monsters can climb for ****!

Two things wrong here:

1. Greipel's right thigh is significantly bigger than his left. Either that or the camera used can't deal with perspective properly!

2. He is wearing triathlete style socks.

Despite this, you'll never be as good at climbing as he is!

ROK ON

Inquiry's

Can I ask how much do you think that you need to train in order to compete as an A4?

I am in a similar situation to yourself in that I am away from family for four days most weeks. Like you I find that it is unfair to p1ss off for long periods cycling Sat&Sun having been away.

I have decided as a result to do the following:
(1) no LSD training whatsoever. From years of cycling I can bang out 3hiurs in Z2 ish. Also is LSD type training even necessary for people who will race for in most cases 60-90minutes.
(2) I have started doing four hours of structured training - mostly 1hour a piece. I am targeting particular areas - cadence, strength, cornering, aero/position.
(3) lots of rest.
The interval sessions will get longer and harder over the winter. For the moment I am doing 15mins of Z4 type work out of a 1 hour session/ with the rest split z2/z3. Do 1-2 mins of HIIT.

I have no idea will this work but I already suck, so for memthe risk is low.

petethedrummer

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

I'll revisit it if you explain the different muscle fibre composition? Use Martyn Irvine as an example maybe? I hope we're not talking slow twitch vs fast twitch and you're not thinking only of sprinters on track.

By stating that if weights powerful quads were any use trackies would beat roadies up hills, i took it to mean that strengthening your quads through weights was next to useless to a roadie. I am suggesting that it may not be or rather asking out loud if that is the case.

I'm not referring to sprinters specifically. It is obvious what happens to sprinters. I am more referring to the effect of weight training on anybody's (including Martyn Irvine's) medium & slow twitch fibres. Does increasing their size aid with endurance? Does it increase their flexibility?

It has been shown that weight training can increase VO2 max. This increase in VO2 max from weight training may not be much use to a cyclist mid season. But it may be a safe enough way of preserving a few of the gains made in a previous season if you can't get on the bike. I'd argue (probably unconvincingly) that the OP would be better off weight training than doing non-cycling "cardio" but that's for another day.

petethedrummer

slideshow bob wrote: »

Maffetone recomends lifting largest weight possible for six reps (so a seventh would be very difficult) and doing this a few times a day to build strength whilst avoiding building muscle mass.

A day?????

That sounds like complete overkill. Once or twice a week is all anyone should do that.

petethedrummer

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

My statement about trackies was made to argue that powerful quads do not necessarily a climber make.

Fair enough, my argument is that having powerfuller quads may make the OP a slightly better climber or at least preserve some element of his climbing ability while off the bike.

but lets not get bogged down in semantics.

Harrybelafonte

Ah, being realistic, WTF would I know, I spent nearly all last winter in the gym lifting and only managed to finish one A4 race with the bunch. All I learned was that there's no point being strong in cycling if you don't have the fitness to match it.

Lusk_Doyle

ROK ON wrote: »

Inquiry's

Can I ask how much do you think that you need to train in order to compete as an A4?

I am in a similar situation to yourself in that I am away from family for four days most weeks. Like you I find that it is unfair to p1ss off for long periods cycling Sat&Sun having been away.

I have decided as a result to do the following:
(1) no LSD training whatsoever. From years of cycling I can bang out 3hiurs in Z2 ish. Also is LSD type training even necessary for people who will race for in most cases 60-90minutes.
(2) I have started doing four hours of structured training - mostly 1hour a piece. I am targeting particular areas - cadence, strength, cornering, aero/position.
(3) lots of rest.
The interval sessions will get longer and harder over the winter. For the moment I am doing 15mins of Z4 type work out of a 1 hour session/ with the rest split z2/z3. Do 1-2 mins of HIIT.

I have no idea will this work but I already suck, so for memthe risk is low.

Pretty sure that LSD ain't too good for you when riding bikes!

Seriously though, what is that?

ROK ON

Long steady distance - the backbone of winter training programmer in pretty much every cycling club in the world.
I figure it is unsuitable for people with lives/jobs/families who live in miserably cold NW Europe.
I get plenty of LSD in the summer.

j0hn1

@ Harrybelafonte & others, maybe we got our wires crossed earlier

I'm not talking about Popeye comedic thighs like those pictured, instead talking about building strength like petethedrummer and slideshow bob seem to be saying.
From what I've read though seems that you're better shifting a weight that allows say 30 reps per set, and maybe 3/4 sets per session.

It makes sense that if your legs are stronger you will go faster. Think about the movement involved in operating a leg press or performing a step up and compare it to the action of pedaling your bike. I may have misdirected earlier when I mentioned anything about quads, these movements may be primarily to do with your quads but they also involve 2 or 3 other muscles as well as joint movement. If you can get your leg stronger pushing downward, it makes sense that you will be able to generate more power, and more power (everything else the same) equals more speed.

If you fancy super thighs like Greipel & co fire ahead, but just making them stronger will do.
Also, most people don't have the opportunity to spend as much time in the gym as you do, so take advantage of it.

Anyway...
Is there a pool in these places?
I mean you're already on the treadmill

Harrybelafonte

j0hn1 wrote: »

@ Harrybelafonte & others, maybe we got our wires crossed earlier

I'm not talking about Popeye comedic thighs like those pictured, instead talking about building strength like petethedrummer and slideshow bob seem to be saying.
From what I've read though seems that your better shifting a weight that allows say 30 reps per set, and maybe 3/4 sets per session.

It makes sense that if your legs are stronger you will go faster. Think about the movement involved in operating a leg press or performing a step up and compare it to the action of pedalling your bike. I may have misdirected earlier when I mentioned anything about quads, these movements may be primarily to do with you quads but they also involve 2 or 3 other muscles as well as joint movement. If you can get your leg stronger pushing downward, it makes sense that you will be able to generate more power, and more power (everything else the same) equals more speed.

If you fancy super thighs like the Greipel & co fire ahead, but just making them stronger will do.
Also, most people don't have the opportunity to spend as much time in the gym as you do, so take advantage of it.

Anyway...
Is there a pool in these places?
I mean your already on the treadmill

I'm gonna have to apologise here again as I was only really thinking of high weight, low reps. The low weight, high rep type programmes you mention are supposed to be good for road cycling, building endurance and stamina, yeah?

Inquitus, would you do bodyweight excercises like pistol squats, lunges etc?

Inquitus

Currently a trip to the Gym involves:

17.5 mins on the treadmill - 5 mins at 6kph warmup, 7.5 mins at 12.5kph and a final 5 mins at 15.5kph
2000m row at between 7 and 8 mins depending on my mood, PB is 7mins5sec
10 mins medium effort on the Elyptical pushing out an avg of about 240 Watts (no idea how accurate that is but as long as all the machines aren't too far off each other it allows me to gauge my effort relative to previous efforts)

And then weights interspersed between the Cardio

Chest Press 3 x 15 @ 32.5kg
Leg Press 3 x 15 @ 90kg
Pectoral Machine 3 x 15 @ 35kg
Upper Back Machine 3 x 15 @ 30 kg
Shoulder Press 3 x 15 @ 20kg

And then core exercises

3 x 20 Mountain Climbers
3 x 1 min Planking
3 x 10 Plank Press Up

Inquitus, would you do bodyweight exercises like pistol squats, lunges etc?

Not currently, but I would like to factor in some of those as they are mentioned as being useful for cyclists, perhaps a seperate short 10-20min routine for doing at home or when away without access to a Gym.

From what I have read there's a huge amount of contradictory stuff out there on the web, some people advocating low weight and high rep, others advocating high weight and 6-8 reps

At the end of the day I am only an A4 racer and while I want to get the maximum benefit from the time put in, I do think if I keep this up through the winter I should be well placed to start the season in the best overall shape I have had, plus Mrs Inquitus gets the added benefits of my nascent Gym Monkey physique

joxerjohn

Sounds like an impressive programme !

slideshow bob

petethedrummer wrote: »

A day?????

That sounds like complete overkill. Once or twice a week is all anyone should do that.

I dont want to squabble about High Weight, Low Rep vs. Low Weight, High Rep debate (sounds a bit like the high fat low-carb, low fat high carb challenge). But Phil Maffetone has a "paleo" approach to a bunch of things and believes modern man has lost something in not being able to lift rocks every day :eek:. Amongst other things He's a renowned coach of endurance athletes. His view is everybody, especially endurance athletes, should take time several times during the day to lift something heavy but dont build muscle mass. If I heard it correctly that'd be about 6 lifts several times meaning a total of maybe 18-24 lifts in the whole day. Not easy to do unless you work in a gym or are raising a bull calf.

Interesting podcast from the horse's mouth here.

petethedrummer

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

Ah, being realistic, WTF would I know,

I don't know much myself. I'm reading conflicting stuff on training all the time. I nearly came to the conclusion a few weeks ago that all exercise is unhealthy.

slideshow bob

Inquitus wrote: »

Currently a trip to the Gym involves:
...<snip>...

And a trip home involves an ambulance??!

Planet X

Play Squash for an hour a few times a week.

petethedrummer

slideshow bob wrote: »

Interesting podcast from the horse's mouth here.

Cool, I'll give him a listen. If you have anymore training podcasts send them on. But I cannot believe paleolithic man lifted rocks (or anything heavy) several times a day. And definitely not his max weight. Why would he? Maybe once in a blue moon for shelter. Our nearest ape relatives don't lift things. Current hunter gatherer tribes don't lift things all day. The masaai do jump up and down alot and beat each other with sticks! Anyone for a stick fight?

longshank

Climbing - power to weight ratio
Flat - power
Power =strength x speed

If you want power u need to train strength. Does putting on muscle mass matter to type of cyclist u want to be? This determines the strength trg.
And train endurance to ensure u can use the power when required. Easy!!

slideshow bob

Mere stick fights are for wusses and white men. A must-listen podcast is here if you want to hear about how the Kenyas do it. As an aside, the linked YouTube video is a class example of one-sided commentary and camera work and also worth listening to/watching.
http://www.radiolab.org/story/runners/

petethedrummer wrote: »

Our nearest ape relatives don't lift things...

Actually I know a few not-distant-enough relatives that "lift" things for a living, but that would bring this thread a very long way off topic:).

petethedrummer

slideshow bob wrote: »

http://www.radiolab.org/story/runners/

I just listened to that the other day!

ghogie91

Could you bring a turbo with you, take the wheels off the bike and pack it in to the car, im sure the hotel gym would let you set up in there for a hour and a half or so? If not the car park out the back somewhere?

Inquitus

ghogie91 wrote: »

Could you bring a turbo with you, take the wheels off the bike and pack it in to the car, im sure the hotel gym would let you set up in there for a hour and a half or so? If not the car park out the back somewhere?

I can just picture myself in a hotel car park, resplendent in my 2014 Season Sky Kit, making my marginal A4 gains

Most of the travel is foreign, but that sounds like an awful lot of hassle

From the replies in thread it seems the lack of bike time will not be too big a deal, I will try and do a few of the early season Audax just to get in some big one day kms in Jan, Feb or MAR. There's a few to choose from:

The Angel of Mons 200
Starts: January 25, 2014
Location: Dublin

Kings Mountain 200
Starts: February 15, 2014
Location: Dublin

Midleton 200
Starts: March 1, 2014
Location: Midleton, Co. Cork

Virginia 300
Starts: March 15, 2014
Location: Slane, Co. Meath

Ardattin 200
Starts: April 5, 2014
Location: Bray

Either way I should hit the start of the A4 season in decent enough nick, I hope.

Harrybelafonte

Inquitus wrote: »

I can just picture myself in a hotel car park, resplendent in my 2014 Season Sky Kit, making my marginal A4 gains

Most of the travel is foreign, but that sounds like an awful lot of hassle

From the replies in thread it seems the lack of bike time will not be too big a deal, I will try and do a few of the early season Audax just to get in some big one day kms in Jan, Feb or MAR. There's a few to choose from:

The Angel of Mons 200
Starts: January 25, 2014
Location: Dublin

Kings Mountain 200
Starts: February 15, 2014
Location: Dublin

Midleton 200
Starts: March 1, 2014
Location: Midleton, Co. Cork

Virginia 300
Starts: March 15, 2014
Location: Slane, Co. Meath

Ardattin 200
Starts: April 5, 2014
Location: Bray

Either way I should hit the start of the A4 season in decent enough nick, I hope.

Will you have the speed though after these? A4 lonest is 80 something?

Inquitus

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

Will you have the speed though after these? A4 lonest is 80 something?

We'll find out in the early season, but I can't imagine a scenario where I can't stick a 38kph avg for 50-60km in the early season if I bring good fitness to the table, and I have never found that early season long rides have a detrimental effect on racing. Even if I do struggle I would think a couple of races would bring the legs back.

We have to remember A4 is the bottom rung of racing, and if you are fit and light you really shouldn't be struggling to be pack fill.

Lusk_Doyle

Inquitus wrote: »

We'll find out in the early season, but I can't imagine a scenario where I can't stick a 38kph avg for 50-60km in the early season if I bring good fitness to the table, and I have never found that early season long rides have a detrimental effect on racing. Even if I do struggle I would think a couple of races would bring the legs back.

We have to remember A4 is the bottom rung of racing, and if you are fit and light you really shouldn't be struggling to be pack fill.

Ha Ha Ha! Famous last words!

Inquitus

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

Ha Ha Ha! Famous last words!

At least on the flat courses! which is most of them!

Harrybelafonte

Inquitus wrote: »

We have to remember A4 is the bottom rung of racing, and if you are fit and light you really shouldn't be struggling to be pack fill.

Well, thanks for making me feel really sh!t about last season then

petethedrummer

slideshow bob wrote: »

Interesting podcast from the horse's mouth here.

Half way through. What he is talking about is neuromuscular efficiency/skill/adaptation/efficiency and not strength. And he's very vague about it. I think there are better people at explaining this sort of things. James Steele II for example.

He's definitely not suggesting lifting your max weight. That would cause hypertrophy(or inroad) and he's against that, for what ever reason. Probably afraid his athletes would get huge, which they wouldn't, especially those with an ectomorphic body type.

Inquitus

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

Well, thanks for making me feel really sh!t about last season then

Sorry Harry, it depends on the races you did, the flat ones are obviously much easier to get round in then the hillier ones as they find you out in quick order.

I struggled in my first race and was dropped at half distance last year, but the club league brought me on and I was fine thereafter. I didn't do any races with hills until the form was really good though.

Harrybelafonte

petethedrummer wrote: »

Half way through. What he is talking about is neuromuscular efficiency/skill/adaptation/efficiency and not strength. And he's very vague about it. I think there are better people at explaining this sort of things. James Steele II for example.

He's definitely not suggesting lifting your max weight. That would cause hypertrophy(or inroad) and he's against that, for what ever reason. Probably afraid his athletes would get huge, which they wouldn't, especially those with an ectomorphic body type.

But to consistently lift your max weight you'd need to eat enough to power that yeah? So, you'd ineviatbly get heavier? It's very hard to lift heavy on a cut.

petethedrummer

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

But to consistently lift your max weight

i'm not suggesting anyone do that. Maffetone isn't either I don't think. He's not being very clear whatever he's saying

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

you'd need to eat enough to power that yeah? So, you'd ineviatbly get heavier?

Can of worms

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

It's very hard to lift heavy on a cut.

What's a cut?!

Harrybelafonte

petethedrummer wrote: »

What's a cut?!

Eating below maintenance calories. Usually comes after a bulk so I'm being fast and loose with my terminology.

petethedrummer

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

Eating below maintenance calories. Usually comes after a bulk so I'm being fast and loose with my terminology.

Oh right, well I don't believe in calories in vs calories out. So we'll not go down that rabbit hole. Again!

Anyways. I think all Maffetone is saying is to do some gardening, some strenuous chores, go for a walk in the morning, squat a bit more (though the interviewer brought that up and I think its the most important element). His weight routine seems to be a substitute for a generally active life (outside of training). It didn't need to be dressed up as a strength routine.

slideshow bob

petethedrummer wrote: »

Anyways. I think all Maffetone is saying is to do some gardening, some strenuous chores, go for a walk in the morning, squat a bit more (though the interviewer brought that up and I think its the most important element). His weight routine seems to be a substitute for a generally active life (outside of training). It didn't need to be dressed up as a strength routine.

You listened more carefully than I did; he advocates an active life for sure and doesnt hide his disdain of gyms. The "strength routine" is part of an approach to health and comes across as odd without that context. Look at him and draw your own conclusion.


Here he says:

To avoid fatigue, overtraining or causing an acute injury, the amount of weight that might be appropriate is about 80 percent of your one-repetition maximum weight. This is also the weight you can lift about six times before fatigue develops—you don’t want to fatigue your muscles at each workout, so build up slowly to learn your limits.

petethedrummer

slideshow bob wrote: »

Look at him and draw your own conclusion.

My conclusions are:

1. If he went to the gym once every 7-12 days and trained a few compound movements for one set slowly to failure while maintaining form he'd make plenty of strength gains (+ cardiovascular benefits) and wouldn't have to waste his life moving rocks around his back yard.

2. If he's lifting rocks he should wear steel toe cap boots.

:pac: