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A Winter largely off the bike

  • 21-11-2013 02:31PM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,778 ✭✭✭✭


    Work has conspired to send me travelling most of the time between now and March.

    This means that I am getting alot of time in the Gym in various hotel's but not much time out on the bike.

    It's obviously not fair on my Wife and Kids to be away all week and then disappear out on the bike at the weekends.

    I find the exercise bike in the Gym to be a horrible experience and cannot really muster much more than 20 minutes on it.

    That said I have been doing a good deal of cardio work, rowing, running, elliptical, as well as alot of core exercises. My weight is hovering around its all time (post 30 anyways) low of 74kg and my general Cardio Fitness is at or close to it's best in recent years.

    How much will the lack of bike time punish me when the A4 Season kicks off, is it a case of a few weeks to get the Legs back or will it really hinder my progress? taking into account I bring a really high level of Cardio fitness to the table when the season kicks off.


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,450 ✭✭✭Harrybelafonte


    I'm going to guess a few races at worst and you'd be straight in there. You sound like you'll have very few problems, all I'd advise is not to stress about it. Life is life and it comes first. You're light and fit, you'll be fine.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,338 ✭✭✭Lusk_Doyle


    Inquitus wrote: »
    Work has conspired to send me travelling most of the time between now and March.

    This means that I am getting alot of time in the Gym in various hotel's but not much time out on the bike.

    It's obviously not fair on my Wife and Kids to be away all week and then disappear out on the bike at the weekends.

    I find the exercise bike in the Gym to be a horrible experience and cannot really muster much more than 20 minutes on it.

    That said I have been doing a good deal of cardio work, rowing, running, elliptical, as well as alot of core exercises. My weight is hovering around its all time (post 30 anyways) low of 74kg and my general Cardio Fitness is at or close to it's best in recent years.

    How much will the lack of bike time punish me when the A4 Season kicks off, is it a case of a few weeks to get the Legs back or will it really hinder my progress? taking into account I bring a really high level of Cardio fitness to the table when the season kicks off.

    Don't sweat it. Sit in behind me for the first few races and I'll shelter you so you can come around and contest the finishes (despite what you tried to do to me earlier in the year!) :pac:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭CptMackey


    I find the rowing machine and lunges to be a good substitute for cycling. It helps me but I find that my climbing suffers.

    On the rolling road tho my cardio is much better and the weight stays off.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭daragh_


    I think you should avoid all forms of exercise and concentrate on eating pies and cake until at least April.

    In fact, I recommend this course of action to EVERYONE who is racing A4 next year.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 103 ✭✭j0hn1


    If you're spending so much time in the gym why not build your quads? - make you a savage for the hills
    Leg Press
    Smyth Machine
    Squats
    Step Ups using free weights
    If doing that you should probably do a small bit of hamstring curls and knee extensions just to keep everything in balance


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,450 ✭✭✭Harrybelafonte


    j0hn1 wrote: »
    If you're spending so much time in the gym why not build your quads? - make you a savage for the hills
    Leg Press
    Smyth Machine
    Squats
    Step Ups using free weights
    If doing that you should probably do a small bit of hamstring curls and knee extensions just to keep everything in balance

    I don't think this is true tbh, or else all the trackies would be beating roadies up climbs.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 103 ✭✭j0hn1


    I don't think this is true tbh, or else all the trackies would be beating roadies up climbs.

    Might it do any harm?
    When it comes round to time to sit on the bike again would he have been better served spending time on say the elliptical machine or working on his quads?
    When spending so much time in the gym a mix between cardio and resistance would be better for the bike than cardio only.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    I don't think this is true tbh, or else all the trackies would be beating roadies up climbs.

    You'll have to revisit your reasoning. Two types of athletes, with different muscle fibre composition (among other things), therefore different outcomes for the same exercise.

    What you'd have to ask is what does an endurance athlete gain(if anything) from doing weights? Forget what a track athlete gains, that's obvious.

    And what way do you perform weight training to maximize the gains (if there are any)?

    And does weight training only increase strength?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,450 ✭✭✭Harrybelafonte


    You'll have to revisit your reasoning. Two types of athletes, with different muscle fibre composition (among other things), therefore different outcomes for the same exercise.

    What you'd have to ask is what does an endurance athlete gain(if anything) from doing weights? Forget what a track athlete gains, that's obvious.

    And what way do you perform weight training to maximize the gains (if there are any)?

    And does weight training only increase strength?

    I'll revisit it if you explain the different muscle fibre composition? Use Martyn Irvine as an example maybe? I hope we're not talking slow twitch vs fast twitch and you're not thinking only of sprinters on track.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,450 ✭✭✭Harrybelafonte


    To be clear, I believe John01's statement that having powerful quads would "make you a savage for the hills" is incorrect.

    My statement about trackies was made to argue that powerful quads do not necessarily a climber make. Trackies are not all sprinters and though some can make short work of shorter drags, I can't think of any who are good on longer climbs or hills.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,778 ✭✭✭✭Inquitus


    I am pretty sure neither of these quad monsters can climb for ****!

    thighs31n-1-web.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 380 ✭✭slideshow bob


    What you'd have to ask is what does an endurance athlete gain(if anything) from doing weights?
    Been listening to a good bit of Tim Noakes and Philip Maffetone on various podcasts. Both advocate "small but very, very powerful muscles" in endurance athletes so that each stride (or rotation) generates maximum force.
    And what way do you perform weight training to maximize the gains (if there are any)?
    Maffetone recomends lifting largest weight possible for six reps (so a seventh would be very difficult) and doing this a few times a day to build strength whilst avoiding building muscle mass.

    I'll let you know in about 6 months how my experiment of one works out :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,338 ✭✭✭Lusk_Doyle


    Inquitus wrote: »
    I am pretty sure neither of these quad monsters can climb for ****!

    thighs31n-1-web.jpg

    Two things wrong here:

    1. Greipel's right thigh is significantly bigger than his left. Either that or the camera used can't deal with perspective properly!

    2. He is wearing triathlete style socks.

    Despite this, you'll never be as good at climbing as he is!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,831 ✭✭✭ROK ON


    Inquiry's

    Can I ask how much do you think that you need to train in order to compete as an A4?

    I am in a similar situation to yourself in that I am away from family for four days most weeks. Like you I find that it is unfair to p1ss off for long periods cycling Sat&Sun having been away.

    I have decided as a result to do the following:
    (1) no LSD training whatsoever. From years of cycling I can bang out 3hiurs in Z2 ish. Also is LSD type training even necessary for people who will race for in most cases 60-90minutes.
    (2) I have started doing four hours of structured training - mostly 1hour a piece. I am targeting particular areas - cadence, strength, cornering, aero/position.
    (3) lots of rest.
    The interval sessions will get longer and harder over the winter. For the moment I am doing 15mins of Z4 type work out of a 1 hour session/ with the rest split z2/z3. Do 1-2 mins of HIIT.

    I have no idea will this work but I already suck, so for memthe risk is low.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    I'll revisit it if you explain the different muscle fibre composition? Use Martyn Irvine as an example maybe? I hope we're not talking slow twitch vs fast twitch and you're not thinking only of sprinters on track.

    By stating that if weights powerful quads were any use trackies would beat roadies up hills, i took it to mean that strengthening your quads through weights was next to useless to a roadie. I am suggesting that it may not be or rather asking out loud if that is the case.

    I'm not referring to sprinters specifically. It is obvious what happens to sprinters. I am more referring to the effect of weight training on anybody's (including Martyn Irvine's) medium & slow twitch fibres. Does increasing their size aid with endurance? Does it increase their flexibility?

    It has been shown that weight training can increase VO2 max. This increase in VO2 max from weight training may not be much use to a cyclist mid season. But it may be a safe enough way of preserving a few of the gains made in a previous season if you can't get on the bike. I'd argue (probably unconvincingly) that the OP would be better off weight training than doing non-cycling "cardio" but that's for another day.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    Maffetone recomends lifting largest weight possible for six reps (so a seventh would be very difficult) and doing this a few times a day to build strength whilst avoiding building muscle mass.
    A day?????

    That sounds like complete overkill. Once or twice a week is all anyone should do that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    My statement about trackies was made to argue that powerful quads do not necessarily a climber make.
    Fair enough, my argument is that having powerfuller quads may make the OP a slightly better climber or at least preserve some element of his climbing ability while off the bike.

    but lets not get bogged down in semantics.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,450 ✭✭✭Harrybelafonte


    Ah, being realistic, WTF would I know, I spent nearly all last winter in the gym lifting and only managed to finish one A4 race with the bunch. All I learned was that there's no point being strong in cycling if you don't have the fitness to match it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,338 ✭✭✭Lusk_Doyle


    ROK ON wrote: »
    Inquiry's

    Can I ask how much do you think that you need to train in order to compete as an A4?

    I am in a similar situation to yourself in that I am away from family for four days most weeks. Like you I find that it is unfair to p1ss off for long periods cycling Sat&Sun having been away.

    I have decided as a result to do the following:
    (1) no LSD training whatsoever. From years of cycling I can bang out 3hiurs in Z2 ish. Also is LSD type training even necessary for people who will race for in most cases 60-90minutes.
    (2) I have started doing four hours of structured training - mostly 1hour a piece. I am targeting particular areas - cadence, strength, cornering, aero/position.
    (3) lots of rest.
    The interval sessions will get longer and harder over the winter. For the moment I am doing 15mins of Z4 type work out of a 1 hour session/ with the rest split z2/z3. Do 1-2 mins of HIIT.

    I have no idea will this work but I already suck, so for memthe risk is low.

    Pretty sure that LSD ain't too good for you when riding bikes!

    Seriously though, what is that?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,831 ✭✭✭ROK ON


    Long steady distance - the backbone of winter training programmer in pretty much every cycling club in the world.
    I figure it is unsuitable for people with lives/jobs/families who live in miserably cold NW Europe.
    I get plenty of LSD in the summer.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 103 ✭✭j0hn1


    @ Harrybelafonte & others, maybe we got our wires crossed earlier

    I'm not talking about Popeye comedic thighs like those pictured, instead talking about building strength like petethedrummer and slideshow bob seem to be saying.
    From what I've read though seems that you're better shifting a weight that allows say 30 reps per set, and maybe 3/4 sets per session.

    It makes sense that if your legs are stronger you will go faster. Think about the movement involved in operating a leg press or performing a step up and compare it to the action of pedaling your bike. I may have misdirected earlier when I mentioned anything about quads, these movements may be primarily to do with your quads but they also involve 2 or 3 other muscles as well as joint movement. If you can get your leg stronger pushing downward, it makes sense that you will be able to generate more power, and more power (everything else the same) equals more speed.

    If you fancy super thighs like Greipel & co fire ahead, but just making them stronger will do.
    Also, most people don't have the opportunity to spend as much time in the gym as you do, so take advantage of it.

    Anyway...
    Is there a pool in these places? ;)
    I mean you're already on the treadmill :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,450 ✭✭✭Harrybelafonte


    j0hn1 wrote: »
    @ Harrybelafonte & others, maybe we got our wires crossed earlier

    I'm not talking about Popeye comedic thighs like those pictured, instead talking about building strength like petethedrummer and slideshow bob seem to be saying.
    From what I've read though seems that your better shifting a weight that allows say 30 reps per set, and maybe 3/4 sets per session.

    It makes sense that if your legs are stronger you will go faster. Think about the movement involved in operating a leg press or performing a step up and compare it to the action of pedalling your bike. I may have misdirected earlier when I mentioned anything about quads, these movements may be primarily to do with you quads but they also involve 2 or 3 other muscles as well as joint movement. If you can get your leg stronger pushing downward, it makes sense that you will be able to generate more power, and more power (everything else the same) equals more speed.

    If you fancy super thighs like the Greipel & co fire ahead, but just making them stronger will do.
    Also, most people don't have the opportunity to spend as much time in the gym as you do, so take advantage of it.

    Anyway...
    Is there a pool in these places? ;)
    I mean your already on the treadmill :D

    I'm gonna have to apologise here again as I was only really thinking of high weight, low reps. The low weight, high rep type programmes you mention are supposed to be good for road cycling, building endurance and stamina, yeah?

    Inquitus, would you do bodyweight excercises like pistol squats, lunges etc?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,778 ✭✭✭✭Inquitus


    Currently a trip to the Gym involves:

    17.5 mins on the treadmill - 5 mins at 6kph warmup, 7.5 mins at 12.5kph and a final 5 mins at 15.5kph
    2000m row at between 7 and 8 mins depending on my mood, PB is 7mins5sec
    10 mins medium effort on the Elyptical pushing out an avg of about 240 Watts (no idea how accurate that is but as long as all the machines aren't too far off each other it allows me to gauge my effort relative to previous efforts)

    And then weights interspersed between the Cardio

    Chest Press 3 x 15 @ 32.5kg
    Leg Press 3 x 15 @ 90kg
    Pectoral Machine 3 x 15 @ 35kg
    Upper Back Machine 3 x 15 @ 30 kg
    Shoulder Press 3 x 15 @ 20kg

    And then core exercises

    3 x 20 Mountain Climbers
    3 x 1 min Planking
    3 x 10 Plank Press Up
    Inquitus, would you do bodyweight exercises like pistol squats, lunges etc?

    Not currently, but I would like to factor in some of those as they are mentioned as being useful for cyclists, perhaps a seperate short 10-20min routine for doing at home or when away without access to a Gym.

    From what I have read there's a huge amount of contradictory stuff out there on the web, some people advocating low weight and high rep, others advocating high weight and 6-8 reps

    At the end of the day I am only an A4 racer and while I want to get the maximum benefit from the time put in, I do think if I keep this up through the winter I should be well placed to start the season in the best overall shape I have had, plus Mrs Inquitus gets the added benefits of my nascent Gym Monkey physique :p


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 396 ✭✭joxerjohn


    Sounds like an impressive programme !


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 380 ✭✭slideshow bob


    A day?????

    That sounds like complete overkill. Once or twice a week is all anyone should do that.

    I dont want to squabble about High Weight, Low Rep vs. Low Weight, High Rep debate (sounds a bit like the high fat low-carb, low fat high carb challenge). But Phil Maffetone has a "paleo" approach to a bunch of things and believes modern man has lost something in not being able to lift rocks every day :eek:. Amongst other things He's a renowned coach of endurance athletes. His view is everybody, especially endurance athletes, should take time several times during the day to lift something heavy but dont build muscle mass. If I heard it correctly that'd be about 6 lifts several times meaning a total of maybe 18-24 lifts in the whole day. Not easy to do unless you work in a gym or are raising a bull calf.

    Interesting podcast from the horse's mouth here.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    Ah, being realistic, WTF would I know,
    I don't know much myself. I'm reading conflicting stuff on training all the time. I nearly came to the conclusion a few weeks ago that all exercise is unhealthy.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 380 ✭✭slideshow bob


    Inquitus wrote: »
    Currently a trip to the Gym involves:
    ...<snip>...
    And a trip home involves an ambulance??!


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 4,162 Mod ✭✭✭✭Planet X


    Play Squash for an hour a few times a week.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    Interesting podcast from the horse's mouth here.

    Cool, I'll give him a listen. If you have anymore training podcasts send them on. But I cannot believe paleolithic man lifted rocks (or anything heavy) several times a day. And definitely not his max weight. Why would he? Maybe once in a blue moon for shelter. Our nearest ape relatives don't lift things. Current hunter gatherer tribes don't lift things all day. The masaai do jump up and down alot and beat each other with sticks! Anyone for a stick fight?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 249 ✭✭longshank


    Climbing - power to weight ratio
    Flat - power
    Power =strength x speed

    If you want power u need to train strength. Does putting on muscle mass matter to type of cyclist u want to be? This determines the strength trg.
    And train endurance to ensure u can use the power when required. Easy!!


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