Riello Burner Consumption

Cerco

I am trying to gauge the amount of Kerosene a burner will consume if I set the heating to come on for a couple of hours every day.

Anybody know how much kerosene the burner will take per hour?

Assuming the boiler is serviced, efficient and the burner runs for the full hour.
Thanks Cerco.

Billy Bunting

Dependent on nozzle size and oil pressure, along with other factors.

corkgsxr

Take a feed and neural off the burner power supply to a apt timer.

Set the timer to 12.00.

Every time the burner gets a feed and fires the apt timer will kick in.


Your burner litres per hour is constant so if one way the boiler fires for 2 hours 40 mins and the other way it fires for 3 hours you know which is better.

Billy Bunting

corkgsxr wrote: »

Take a feed and neural off the burner power supply to a apt timer.

Set the timer to 12.00.

Every time the burner gets a feed and fires the apt timer will kick in.


Your burner litres per hour is constant so if one way the boiler fires for 2 hours 40 mins and the other way it fires for 3 hours you know which is better.

If op is using a nozzle sized at .50/80s or nozzle sized at 1.00/80s then ltr/hr with be different, he asked "how much kerosene the burner will take per hour?" so he will still need to know size and pressure.

corkgsxr

Billy Bunting wrote: »

If op is using a nozzle sized at .50/80s or nozzle sized at 1.00/80s then ltr/hr with be different, he asked "how much kerosene the burner will take per hour?" so he will still need to know size and pressure.

It doesnt matter. If the burner runs for a 3 hours by boosting when needed. And the burner runs for 2 hours 40 minutes by leaving it on. The one that stayed on for less time used less kerosine.

He want to save money using his heating. So it doesnt matter what pressure or nossle. The less time the burner runs for over a night the less kero used so the time on is as useful as litres used.

Wearb

Cerco wrote: »

I am trying to gauge the amount of Kerosene a burner will consume if I set the heating to come on for a couple of hours every day.

Anybody know how much kerosene the burner will take per hour?

Assuming the boiler is serviced, efficient and the burner runs for the full hour.
Thanks Cerco.

The amount of running time will decrease as house warms up. So your first hour will be longest. Tell us the boiler make and model and we can see what original factory settings were.

Cerco

Thanks for the replies. Just to clarify, the house will be unoccupied for a few weeks in Dec. and Jan so I want to make sure I have enough kero to keep it heated.

Billy Bunting

corkgsxr wrote: »

It doesnt matter. If the burner runs for a 3 hours by boosting when needed. And the burner runs for 2 hours 40 minutes by leaving it on. The one that stayed on for less time used less kerosine.

He want to save money using his heating. So it doesnt matter what pressure or nossle. The less time the burner runs for over a night the less kero used so the time on is as useful as litres used.

He wants to know HOW much he is using, so how will he know that with your calculation ?

corkgsxr

Fair enough I took up your needs wrong

Cerco

Wearb wrote: »

The amount of running time will decrease as house warms up. So your first hour will be longest. Tell us the boiler make and model and we can see what original factory settings were.

It's a firebird Poplar 90 with a Riello 40 burner. Thanks.

corkgsxr

About 3-4 litres per hour

Varys abit pressure to the nossle.
Will it run for a full hour (get up to temp and cut out)
I took it as a 0.8 nossle. Could be a 0.6 and use less.

But you should he safe enough at 3-4 litres

Wearb

Cerco wrote: »

It's a firebird Poplar 90 with a Riello 40 burner. Thanks.

Probably about 2.3 litres per hour of continuous running. With no one in the house and doors not opening and closing and heat turned down, it will not run continuously for an hour. Listen to it for an hour after house warms up and see how long it runs for during that hour. Even then it will only give you a rough idea, as temperatures will change during the days and nights.
It will be at least something to work on.
Why not make sure there is 500 litres in it and not worry after that.

Cerco

That's great, so between 2 and 4 litres/hour. I can plan on that to make sure I am covered.
Thaks everybody the replies. Cerco.

Billy Bunting

As Wearb has previously said no matter what size nozzle fitted the burner will use far more oil initially getting the house upto temperature after that it will use on average around a third of the oil used in the initial heat up, so the longer the time its off the more it will run to get back upto temperature. The twice a day peeps 2hr in the morning and 2 in the evening are really throwing money away.

Cerco

Billy Bunting wrote: »

As Wearb has previously said no matter what size nozzle fitted the burner will use far more oil initially getting the house upto temperature after that it will use on average around a third of the oil used in the initial heat up, so the longer the time its off the more it will run to get back upto temperature. The twice a day peeps 2hr in the morning and 2 in the evening are really throwing money away.

What I was planning to do was have it on from 7-8pm and again at 11-12 am. I thought this would warm the house and give better protection against frost.

Would it be better to run it for two hours consecutive say from 9-11 pm
instead?

Wearb

Cerco wrote: »

What I was planning to do was have it on from 7-8pm and again at 11-12 am. I thought this would warm the house and give better protection against frost.

Would it be better to run it for two hours consecutive say from 9-11 pm
instead?

If it doesn't have a frost stat fitted and in case the weather got very cold, I would be inclined to give it a half hour in the middle of the day and same in middle of night also. A lot depends on your level of insulation and controls.

corkgsxr

Id be more inclined to go 2 hours at night. Maybe 9-11. Maybe half hour top about 4 in the morning.


My thinking being unless it gets very cold its overnight youll need the heat.

During the day again unless very cold it'll be back over 0º during the day so no worrys till next night.

MicktheMan

Billy Bunting wrote: »

As Wearb has previously said no matter what size nozzle fitted the burner will use far more oil initially getting the house upto temperature after that it will use on average around a third of the oil used in the initial heat up, so the longer the time its off the more it will run to get back upto temperature. The twice a day peeps 2hr in the morning and 2 in the evening are really throwing money away.

Not to take the thread too far off topic, I agree with the above and can back it up with real data:

1970's built 2100 sqft concrete (cavity wall) bungalow, floor insulation non existant, wall insulation ok, ceiling insulation good and good air tightness. Non condensing oil boiler controlled by a good digital time/temp stat with different set points for different times.

Space heating is programmed to come on at 6am with setpoint temp of 19 deg. At 4pm, set point to 20deg till midnight. So heating is "on" for 18 hours per 24. This regime burns oil for 3 to 3.5 hours per day with a 0.65 gallon nozzle.

Wearb

MicktheMan wrote: »

Not to take the thread too far off topic, I agree with the above and can back it up with real data:

1970's built 2100 sqft concrete (cavity wall) bungalow, floor insulation non existant, wall insulation ok, ceiling insulation good and good air tightness. Non condensing oil boiler controlled by a good digital time/temp stat with different set points for different times.

Space heating is programmed to come on at 6am with setpoint temp of 19 deg. At 4pm, set point to 20deg till midnight. So heating is "on" for 18 hours per 24. This regime burns oil for 3 to 3.5 hours per day with a 0.65 gallon nozzle.

That is very economical usage for a house with those specs. Have you all rads turned on? Zones? TRV's?

MicktheMan

Wearb wrote: »

That is very economical usage for a house with those specs. Have you all rads turned on? Zones? TRV's?

All rads turned on, no trv's. 3 zones (living / bedroom / dhw). The details I gave were for the living area zone. Bedroom area zone set to 18 deg (4pm - midnight). Dhw usage has been discounted in the data (i.e. 3-3.5 hours burn time is for space heating only of the 2 zones).

I have set it up to take advantage of the very high thermal mass in the house (internal walls are also solid block) in that the house doesn't cool down that much when heating is "off". That and the fact that air tightness is good ensures that the heat loss is low.

When the time comes to change the boiler I will be installing the smallest condensing boiler I can find as I do not need the "big burst" of energy to have a comfortable home.

agusta

Cerco wrote: »

What I was planning to do was have it on from 7-8pm and again at 11-12 am. I thought this would warm the house and give better protection against frost.

Would it be better to run it for two hours consecutive say from 9-11 pm
instead?

it would be cheaper,My approx estimation for two hours continous would be 3.5 litres in total.For two separate intervals my approx estimation would be 5 litres of oil.

freddyuk

Cerco wrote: »

Thanks for the replies. Just to clarify, the house will be unoccupied for a few weeks in Dec. and Jan so I want to make sure I have enough kero to keep it heated.

1. Fit a frost stat. Simple and cheap and may save your whole system.
2. Check your insurance policy. Leaving the house unoccupied for that period without proper frost protection may (and I am pretty certain) will invalidate your insurance. 30 days unoccupied is normal limit and freezing may not be covered anyway.

John T Carroll

Cerco wrote: »

I am trying to gauge the amount of Kerosene a burner will consume if I set the heating to come on for a couple of hours every day.

Anybody know how much kerosene the burner will take per hour?

Assuming the boiler is serviced, efficient and the burner runs for the full hour.
Thanks Cerco.

A little bit late with info but better late than never.....I have a Firebird 70/90 Boiler fitted with a Riello G5X Burner and a 511T3K head. I dont know what size nozzle is fitted but I do know almost exactly what its consumption is per hour using a Timer (like Corkgskr suggested, below) and by filling the Tank each time I get a refill. The burner oil consumption is 2.66 LPH (which suggests a 0.65 nozzle with the fuel pump pressure set at 10 Bar.)

For info only, I used 628 Litres Kero from 25/11/2013 to (today) 13/02/2014. This was an average of 7.85 Litres/Day, C.Heating timed as follows. ON from: 0900 to 1000, 1200 to 1300 and 1530 to midnight every day, with frequent "all day" running on Sunday and the odd day in the week as well. John

DGOBS

Your fuel pressure is too high at 10bar (should be 8)

Wearb

John T Carroll wrote: »

A little bit late with info but better late than never.....I have a Firebird 70/90 Boiler fitted with a Riello G5X Burner and a 511T3K head. I dont know what size nozzle is fitted but I do know almost exactly what its consumption is per hour using a Timer (like Corkgskr suggested, below) and by filling the Tank each time I get a refill. The burner oil consumption is 2.66 LPH (which suggests a 0.65 nozzle with the fuel pump pressure set at 10 Bar.)

For info only, I used 628 Litres Kero from 25/11/2013 to (today) 13/02/2014. This was an average of 7.85 Litres/Day, C.Heating timed as follows. ON from: 0900 to 1000, 1200 to 1300 and 1530 to midnight every day, with frequent "all day" running on Sunday and the odd day in the week as well. John

How do you know what your exact consumption is when using a timer, if you don't know what size you nozzle is? I do know almost exactly what its consumption is per hour using a Timer (like Corkgskr suggested, below) and by filling the Tank each time I get a refil. You must be going only by the amount of oil used and the times the burner was on for or am I missing something?

If that is the case, there could be easily 50 litres in the difference between one fill and another, because the driver has to leave ullage and that has to be guessed and not measured.

John T Carroll

DGOBS wrote: »

Your fuel pressure is too high at 10bar (should be 8)

Thats right DGOBS, the normal fuel pressure is (should be) 8 Bar but Rielo state in their instruction manual.....8 Bar Normal, 10 Bar Max. Now 2.66 LPM is 0.702 USGPH, if a 0.75 USGPH was fitted, (next size up, according to the manual), then this would be a firing rate of 2.84 LPH which is 7% higher than my firing rate but a 0.65 USGPH, 2.46 LPH nozzle will flow 2.75 LPH at 10 Bar so I (probably) either have a 0.65 nozzle with 10 Bar pressure OR a 0.75 nozzle with 8 Bar, I'll have a look next summer.

John T Carroll

Wearb wrote: »

How do you know what your exact consumption is when using a timer, if you don't know what size you nozzle is? I do know almost exactly what its consumption is per hour using a Timer (like Corkgskr suggested, below) and by filling the Tank each time I get a refil. You must be going only by the amount of oil used and the times the burner was on for or am I missing something?

If that is the case, there could be easily 50 litres in the difference between one fill and another, because the driver has to leave ullage and that has to be guessed and not measured.

When I originally carried out my calculations, the driver allowed me to top it off (myself) to the same measured ullage of exactly 6 ins for three fills in a row, each time I allowed the tank contents to fall to approx to approx 200 Litres before refilling, this obviously resulted in a lower margin of error when doing the calculations. So while I would never claim this to be "100%" accurate it nevertheless is a very very good indication of how much oil is consumed. Today, for example, my calculated requirement was 621 Litres to "fill" the Tank, the actual amount was 628 Litres.The same driver is delivering here for years so he has his own consistent "ullage" method but each time my calculated requirements come within plus or minus 1% to 1.5% of the actual received. I dont think that I have ever seen greater than 10 litres difference.

Wearb

John T Carroll wrote: »

When I originally carried out my calculations, the driver allowed me to top it off (myself) to the same measured ullage of exactly 6 ins for three fills in a row, ..........

Ok I understand how you did it now. I was confused about how your timer came into it.

DGOBS

That's max 10bar is burner setup as that is the max pressure to use with kerosene , for the appliance the manufacturer states 8 bar, you said appliance was 70/90
well, with a 0.65 us/gal at 8bar would be 88,200 BTU (88.2k) but if set to 10bar would be 98,640 BTU (98.6k) and would be over firing the appliance.

Why are you going to so much trouble with all this?
Essentially, if the appliance is sized for the house correctly, plumbed correctly, set up with the correct nozzle, correct oil pressure, and flue gas analysis shows the correct flue gas temperature at the terminal, it is running as efficiently as it will.

John T Carroll

DGOBS wrote: »

That's max 10bar is burner setup as that is the max pressure to use with kerosene , for the appliance the manufacturer states 8 bar, you said appliance was 70/90
well, with a 0.65 us/gal at 8bar would be 88,200 BTU (88.2k) but if set to 10bar would be 98,640 BTU (98.6k) and would be over firing the appliance.

Why are you going to so much trouble with all this?
Essentially, if the appliance is sized for the house correctly, plumbed correctly, set up with the correct nozzle, correct oil pressure, and flue gas analysis shows the correct flue gas temperature at the terminal, it is running as efficiently as it will.

I understood the 70/90 rating as referring to the Boiler Output.
My Boiler is non condensing with a Sedbuk Band C rating of 82% to 86%,
using the higher efficiency of 86% then the Boiler output would be 98,640*86% or 84,830 Btu (84.8K) which is within the 70/90 rating.

The only reason that I took the "trouble" to fit a timer and do a few simple calcs was to have a very handy Tank Level Indicator which I have used for years.

DGOBS

Correct, 70/90 does refer to output, the futures I have also give are based on output, but you don't calculate it using a SEDBUK rating as it has been seasonally adjusted, not actually appliance efficiency. Correctly adjusted and serviced you would see up to 88-90% and hence use this to calculate output.

.65 at 10 bar is over firing, 0.75 at 8bar is over firing, simply proven when looking at flue gas temperature, as it will be higher than specified by the manufacturer.

John T Carroll

DGOBS wrote: »

Correct, 70/90 does refer to output, the futures I have also give are based on output, but you don't calculate it using a SEDBUK rating as it has been seasonally adjusted, not actually appliance efficiency. Correctly adjusted and serviced you would see up to 88-90% and hence use this to calculate output.

.65 at 10 bar is over firing, 0.75 at 8bar is over firing, simply proven when looking at flue gas temperature, as it will be higher than specified by the manufacturer.

If you use 90% as the Boiler Efficiency, then would it be correct to say that the max Burner input could/should be, 90,000/0.9, or 100,000 BTU?. The Firebird 70/90 Heatpac info says that 90,000 BTU (90K) output is achieved by fitting a "0.75 80S nozzle @ 8 Bar", this equates to 101,769 BTU input?. This equates to a boiler efficiency of 88.4% which is in line with your statement above.

DGOBS

0.65 us/gal H or S (ref pressure of 10bar) set to 8 bar, will give an input of 28.73kw (98026BTU) at 90% efficiency outputs 25.85kw (88200BTU)

I would have to double check the older manuals, just to be sure on the reference pressure used for the calculations, as somewhere back in time the reference pressure changed from 7bar to 10bar, which alters the calculation as throughput changed.


But trust me, in practice with 0.65 you will get correct performance in my humble opinion.

John T Carroll

DGOBS wrote: »

0.65 us/gal H or S (ref pressure of 10bar) set to 8 bar, will give an input of 28.73kw (98026BTU) at 90% efficiency outputs 25.85kw (88200BTU)

I would have to double check the older manuals, just to be sure on the reference pressure used for the calculations, as somewhere back in time the reference pressure changed from 7bar to 10bar, which alters the calculation as throughput changed.


But trust me, in practice with 0.65 you will get correct performance in my humble opinion.

I found the info, finally, re (original) nozzle fitted to my May 2005 Firebird 70/90 Heat Pac Boiler. The Boiler is and always was Kerosene fired.

Danfoss.
0.6 USGPH
80H
6VA
EN 90 IV
2.37 kgs/hr

Could you please tell me from the above info, what the Burner input is, I assume, at 8.0 Bar pressure.
I also read somewhere that a Danfoss EH nozzle should be fitted when burning Kerosene and not a EN type.

Thanks.

Wearb

John T Carroll wrote: »

I found the info, finally, re (original) nozzle fitted to my May 2005 Firebird 70/90 Heat Pac Boiler. The Boiler is and always was Kerosene fired.

Danfoss.
0.6 USGPH
80H
6VA
EN 90 IV
2.37 kgs/hr

Could you please tell me from the above info, what the Burner input is, I assume, at 8.0 Bar pressure.
I also read somewhere that a Danfoss EH nozzle should be fitted when burning Kerosene and not a EN type.

Thanks.

I am not sure if this is what you mean, but the above configuration would give you a burner output of 70,000btu, at 8 bar.

Wearb

Meant to add that when going by the manual, you need to know what type if nozzle it refers to. For example if it uses a "regular" .6 nozzle (referenced at 7bar) and you replace it with a .6 eh nozzle (referenced at 8bar) you need to take the pump pressure into account when calculating the output. Even more important when using an en nozzle (referenced at 10bar). All confusing and keeps us on our toes when stepping outside the manual.

John T Carroll

Wearb wrote: »

Meant to add that when going by the manual, you need to know what type if nozzle it refers to. For example if it uses a "regular" .6 nozzle (referenced at 7bar) and you replace it with a .6 eh nozzle (referenced at 8bar) you need to take the pump pressure into account when calculating the output. Even more important when using an en nozzle (referenced at 10bar). All confusing and keeps us on our toes when stepping outside the manual.

Thanks, have a look at the attachment to see what would be the compatible EH nozzle, assuming I cant get the exact same replacement nozzle which has given faultess service over 9 years, never having had to press the reset button even once.

DGOBS

As with all nozzles there is a tolerance of +/-5% so each has to be correctly setup using flue gas analysis (CO2%) to ensure correct operation, just exchanging like for like does not work!

John T Carroll

DGOBS wrote: »

As with all nozzles there is a tolerance of +/-5% so each has to be correctly setup using flue gas analysis (CO2%) to ensure correct operation, just exchanging like for like does not work!

I understand that and I wouldn't dream of renewing a nozzle without getting a flue gas analysis, thanks for pointing it out anyhow.

Wearb

John T Carroll wrote: »

Thanks, have a look at the attachment to see what would be the compatible EH nozzle, assuming I cant get the exact same replacement nozzle which has given faultess service over 9 years, never having had to press the reset button even once.

I am not certain, but I think that your original nozzle posted a few posts back may be referenced at 10 bar and if, as you assumed set to 8 bar, then this configuration would be ok for a 70,000 btu output from your boiler. I am assuming about 84% efficiency for your boiler.
Then from the xls chart you provided, a .65 EH at 8.5 bar would be nearest. All of this needs to be understood in conjunction with what Dgobs said and my assumptions above.

John T Carroll

Wearb wrote: »

I am not certain, but I think that your original nozzle posted a few posts back may be referenced at 10 bar and if, as you assumed set to 8 bar, then this configuration would be ok for a 70,000 btu output from your boiler. I am assuming about 84% efficiency for your boiler.
Then from the xls chart you provided, a .65 EH at 8.5 bar would be nearest. All of this needs to be understood in conjunction with what Dgobs said and my assumptions above.

Thanks for that, I will try and get one exactly like my own....from actual consumption figures taken over the years (see previous posts on the method) it would appear that my present nozzle is outputting about 2.65 LPM but that could possibly be nozzle wear? or the pump pressure being higher than 8.0 Bar. At any rate, + or - 5% to 10% should probably be ok as long as the analysis/damper adjustments are done.

Wearb

John T Carroll wrote: »

Thanks for that, I will try and get one exactly like my own....from actual consumption figures taken over the years (see previous posts on the method) it would appear that my present nozzle is outputting about 2.65 LPM but that could possibly be nozzle wear? or the pump pressure being higher than 8.0 Bar. At any rate, + or - 5% to 10% should probably be ok as long as the analysis/damper adjustments are done.

2.65 lpm. I know you meant lph. A good service has a lot to do with a good cleaning, good deals. Not under or over firing no soot on smoke paper, and above all understanding what ALL the different analyser readings mean. I often talk to service guys that try to shove it down my neck that all that matters is Co2 readings. Ok that's my Sunday eant over.

Dtp1979

Wearb wrote: »

2.65 lpm. I know you meant lph. A good service has a lot to do with a good cleaning, good deals. Not under or over firing no soot on smoke paper, and above all understanding what ALL the different analyser readings mean. I often talk to service guys that try to shove it down my neck that all that matters is Co2 readings. Ok that's my Sunday eant over.

But when co2 is correct all the other numbers are usually right?? :pac:

Wearb

Dtp1979 wrote: »

But when co2 is correct all the other numbers are usually right?? :pac:

YEAH! Right

Wearb

Dtp1979 wrote: »

But when co2 is correct all the other numbers are usually right?? :pac:

Watched a plumber (we didn't know each other) stick his analyser probe in and press save and pull the probe out as soon as he got the reading he wanted. Never waited for readings to stabilise. I held my tongue as I didn't want to get involved. He is related by marriage to the people he was doing the job for.

Btw. My spellchecker turned SEALS into DEALS in one of the above posts.

Dtp1979

Wearb wrote: »

YEAH! Right

Ha I know what you mean but when done right, clean boiler, clean fuel, and correct pump pressure, as soon as the co2 is correct and stabilised, all the other figures always line up right

Wearb

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Ha I know what you mean but when done right, clean boiler, clean fuel, and correct pump pressure, as soon as the co2 is correct and stabilised, all the other figures always line up right

Have you never had correct co2 with incorrect fg temps ?

jimf

Wearb wrote: »

Have you never had correct co2 with incorrect fg temps ?

yes and mainly on old firebird boilers because of the poor baffle arrangement

co2 can be spot on at 11.5 but have often found fg temp in excess of 300dg with nozzle as per spec and pump pressure ditto with no flue restrictions and no dropped baffles somebody has suggested metal fatigue can be a cause I don't know maybe one of the senior guys might be able to elaborate

Dtp1979

Wearb wrote: »

Have you never had correct co2 with incorrect fg temps ?

Only on the oven side of a cooker. Often up to 500 deg/C.
Have you? And what caused it?

scudo2

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Only on the oven side of a cooker. Often up to 500 deg/C.
Have you? And what caused it?

Faulty nozzle giving too much oil also give high temp's even though you have adjusted for correct O2 + Co2

Another question for ye.
Do you go by the smoke pump first before useing FGA
I do
As I know a loft of RGII's who have damaged their FGA on oil because they didn't check for smoke first as their use to nice clean gas.

Honestly it breaks my heart to see it happen on my territory.

jimf

scudo2 wrote: »

Faulty nozzle giving too much oil also give high temp's even though you have adjusted for correct O2 + Co2

Another question for ye.
Do you go by the smoke pump first before useing FGA
I do
As I know a loft of RGII's who have damaged their FGA on oil because they didn't check for smoke first as their use to nice clean gas.

Honestly it breaks my heart to see it happen on my territory.

pump first fga second unless you want to be contributing to charlies
feckin new merc
you being a little sarky with last comment scudo :eek: