Getting lean before weight lifting

Mr.Fun

Hey guys,

I have some excess belly fat, chest fat, and leg fat at the moment, I want to get muscular as soon as possible and was wondering would I be better off losing this excess fat and getting lean first before I start weight lifting?

Any feedback is greatly appreciated. Cheers

runawaybishop

You can probably do both, it depends how much is "some excess" and what your level of fitness is really.

mdwexford

Use weight lifting to help you burn the excess fat.

Start lifting now.

Mr.Fun

mdwexford wrote: »

Use weight lifting to help you burn the excess fat.

Start lifting now.

But how would I be able to balance eating so much to build muscle along with trying to eat correctly for burning fat?

runawaybishop

Mr.Fun wrote: »

But how would I be able to balance eating so much to build muscle along with trying to eat correctly for burning fat?

simplesciencefitness.com <- have a read of that

Mr.Fun

runawaybishop wrote: »

You can probably do both, it depends how much is "some excess" and what your level of fitness is really.

Thanks for your reply, Its not alot of excess fat like i have never been called fat or anything its enough to kind of jiggle if you know what i mean. My fitness is poor at the moment aswell

runawaybishop

Mr.Fun wrote: »

Thanks for your reply, Its not alot of excess fat like i have never been called fat or anything its enough to kind of jiggle if you know what i mean. My fitness is poor at the moment aswell

Start lifting so. Body recomposition is slow but doable. Your alternative is to bulk to build muscle and cut, or cut and then bulk. Personally i would just start lifting and eat sensibly. That site i linked you should give you good pointers towards your diet.

MickieD

Maintain or preferably increase protein consumption...minimise carbohydrate consumption. Moneywise...chkn fillets @€;25 for 25 from the food centre is as good a source of protein as you'll get. Don't do what so many do and start living on tuna or you'll end up mercury poisoning yourself. 3-4 cardio sets of 25 minutes walking a week should gently increase your fitness and speed up the fatloss process..trust me on this one thing though...it's diet that determines fatloss. If you're diet is good...you'll lose fat easily and quickly. Minimising carbs starts the body burning fat for energy...the excess protein is to spare and or build muscles while in a carb deficit. This seems too simple to work, but believe me, it's what actually has been proven without fail to work for people, particularly bodybuilders who are real experts on dieting and muscle growth/retention. Good luck

generic2012

Dont minimise carbs. You need them for maximal exertion during weight lifting. If all you're doing is walking you can lower them but not if you're doing anything remotely taxing. Find out what your resting metabolic rate is and try and eat that amount of calories. If you're new to the whole thing you'll build muscle and lose fat. If anyone tells you to restrict part of your diet, worry. The reason people lose weight with no carb/no fat/no gluten/no dairy/no meat/no whatever's in fashion is because they cut such a large chunk of their diet out, don't develop that negative association with food, learn about nutrition and use it to your advantage.

kevpants

In a perfect world I would have liked to have been as lean as possible before starting to lift seriously. Of course you can still lift weights while losing fat initially but I believe you won't really do a great job of either.

Depends what you mean by "lift weights", are you going to work towards something or do you just want to lift weights from time to time.

generic2012

If you look around youtube at some of the older, more experienced physique models, they say they wished they hadn't spent as much time at the start of their careers trying to get lean because not only does building muscle take longer when you have more experience but it also takes longer as you get older. Their argument is to build as much muscle as you can when you start off because it always gets harder with time which is not (as much) the case with weight loss. This, off course, is only an issue if you're goals are long term, which in most cases, unfortunately, is not the usual scenario. So perhaps bare that in mind.

rubadub

Mr.Fun wrote: »

But how would I be able to balance eating so much to build muscle along with trying to eat correctly for burning fat?

If you are on a low calorie diet then you risk losing muscle along with the fat. By lifting weights you minimise this muscle loss happening, and as you are a beginner it is perfectly possible to put on muscle too.

I remained a fairly stable 12 stone for about a year, building muscle and losing fat at the same rate, I remember some girl in work warning my "not to lose any more weight", when I had actually lost no weight, but had been putting new holes in my belt for months, both a girl and guy took me aside in work on different occasions asking me what my "secret" was.

Also if you are anyway overweight you are probably carrying more muscle than you would otherwise have, it would be a shame to possibly lose this extra muscle you have already put on which could be easily kept.

kevpants

rubadub wrote: »

both a girl and guy took me aside in work on different occasions asking me what my "secret" was.

Do personal trainers hate you?

MickieD

generic2012 wrote: »

Dont minimise carbs. You need them for maximal exertion during weight lifting. If all you're doing is walking you can lower them but not if you're doing anything remotely taxing. Find out what your resting metabolic rate is and try and eat that amount of calories. If you're new to the whole thing you'll build muscle and lose fat. If anyone tells you to restrict part of your diet, worry. The reason people lose weight with no carb/no fat/no gluten/no dairy/no meat/no whatever's in fashion is because they cut such a large chunk of their diet out, don't develop that negative association with food, learn about nutrition and use it to your advantage.

''Don't minimise carbs''. If he goes by his BMR that's exactly what he will be doing. That's how it works buddy, sorry. It's that simple.
Noone mentioned anything about gluten or dairy, meat etc.
''Learn about nutrition and use it to your advantage''? Is that not exactly what he's trying to do here?
''The reason people lose weight with no carb/no fat/no gluten/no dairy/no meat/no whatever's in fashion is because they cut such a large chunk of their diet out''. Well d'uh, that's how weightloss is achieved.

You haven't really said a lot with this have you?

MickieD

generic2012 wrote: »

If you look around youtube at some of the older, more experienced physique models, they say they wished they hadn't spent as much time at the start of their careers trying to get lean because not only does building muscle take longer when you have more experience but it also takes longer as you get older. Their argument is to build as much muscle as you can when you start off because it always gets harder with time which is not (as much) the case with weight loss. This, off course, is only an issue if you're goals are long term, which in most cases, unfortunately, is not the usual scenario. So perhaps bare that in mind.

Which of the older more experienced physique models for example?
I don't think OP mentioned anything about physique modelling.
Not only does building muscle take longer when you have more experience but it also takes longer as you get older....building muscle takes longer when you have more experience? I'm stumped by this one.

generic2012

Whoa, easy there, Mick, pull the neck in for a second.
“''Don't minimise carbs''. If he goes by his BMR that's exactly what he will be doing. That's how it works buddy, sorry. It's that simple.” Actually it’s not that simple, BMR is basal metabolic rate, a measurement of energy, the unit for which is the calorie. Adjusting your calories can be down by increasing/decreasing carbs/fat/protein. That’s 6 different ways, therefore, minimising carbs isn’t the only way of achieving this, buddy.
“''The reason people lose weight with no carb/no fat/no gluten/no dairy/no meat/no whatever's in fashion is because they cut such a large chunk of their diet out''. Well d'uh, that's how weightloss is achieved.” This shows that maybe you’re the one who should be learning a bit more about nutrition? It’s not how weightloss is achieved, it’s a method to achieve weightloss, and a method that is stupid to implement, and stupid, as well as irresponsible, to suggest some else implement.

It does not surprise me that you're stumped would you believe? Muscle gains are not linear. So for example Lyle McDonald say that in your first year of training you can gain 20-25 pounds, 2nd year - 10-12 pounds, 3rd - 5-6 pounds, 4th+ - 2-3 pounds. I dont think he mentioned anything about the price of chicken either?

I don’t want to give your first post the ‘analysis’ you gave mine. Read more. Lyle McDonald would be a good place to start.

MickieD

Lyle McDnald is laughed about in America. I don't need to read more, I've been weightlifting for over 20 years and I've learned enough about muscle gain and weight loss that I don't need to read Lyle McDonald. He makes money from writing books so he'll print anything you're willing to buy, would you believe?

generic2012

Actually, no, I wouldn't believe that. Congratulations on knowing more than Lyle McDonald (and therefore other published authors and qualified physiologists), perhaps you should write some books explaining some of your novel approaches and how you came to those conclusions? I would be particularly interested in;

how you can determine that someone should 'Maintain or preferably increase protein consumption...minimise carbohydrate consumption' without knowing anything about the persons diet;

how 'Moneywise...chkn fillets @€;25 for 25 from the food centre is as good a source of protein as you'll get' seeing as whey protein is cheaper per gram of protein (and some would argue, including myself, from the standpoint of protein quality alone, whey protein is superior, but I'll leave that to opinion)

how you know that 'Minimising carbs starts the body burning fat for energy...the excess protein is to spare and or build muscles while in a carb deficit' when the scientific consensus is that a caloric deficit and low intensity aerobic work is what encourages using fat for energy (apart from Medium Chain Triglyceride which, to the best of my knowledge, is the only fat that has a preference to be immediately used for energy) and that excess protein is primarily excreted through the urine and breath and in extreme cases stored as fat;

and the bodybuilders it 'has been proven without fail to work for'

I will be the first of the millions who will buy your books.

MickieD

Look dude...I'm serious when I say about Lyle McDonald. Lyle McDonald type gurus and experts and fellas like him are ten a penny in America...all of them 100% credible and every single one of them disagreeing with each other in a business that is completely cutthroat for the amount of money involved. They can't all be right can they?
Also...go onto a few dedicated bodybuilding/weightlifting/powerlifting and strength forums and, for the hell of it...post what you just wrote about whey protein being nutritionally superior to chicken to see what kind of reaction you get.
FWIW I was referring to chicken pricewise...and most people who use a lot of protein will say exactly the same thing. In fact, upper level strength athletes don't really use much whey if any at all...you just buy into it like everyone else does. The OP was just looking for simple advice which I gave him in my experience as a competing bodybuilder who can gain or lose 30-40 lbs. in 10-12 weeks by the methods I mentioned.
Yes there might be 6 different ways to lose or gain weight by adjusting your macros, but in fairness did OP strike you as being ready for that level of knowledge just yet...or did he in some way ask that in a fashion I didn't spot myself?
Write books?? I'm not trying to gyp people out of their money mate. You've just proven to me that you are the gullible type who does buy these books and believes the nonsense in them.
There's a great line in bodybuilding mate...''keep it simple stupid'' or simpler still K.I.S.S. That's what you ought to do.

generic2012

They don't disagree with each other at all, they distribute facts, you cant argue with facts, so they can all be right. You can however argue with opinions, such as your own. It's not cut throat either, perhaps the bro science end of the spectrum is, but the real scientists can tolerate each other perfectly from what I've seen. Because they bring forward facts and don't start meaningless arguments about unsubstantiated personal opinions. Because they bring forward facts and don't start meaningless arguments about unsubstantiated personal opinions.

I never said whey was nutritionally better than chicken, I said from a protein standpoint alone it could be superior (has the highest leucine content, highest Biological Value (BV) ,Protein Efficiency Ratio (PER) and Net Protein Utilisation (NPU), and depending on processing, is full of micronutrients) but I stated that as an opinion, not fact which is the important part. And I wouldn't be particularly tempted to 'go onto a few dedicated bodybuilding/weightlifting/powerlifting and strength forums' as they are often full of hot headed folk spouting non-sense in favour of fact, not always by any means though.

In reference to chicken being cheaper, again, Ill say whey protein powder is cheaper per serving. average chicken breast is 120-180 grams, we'll say 150 grams even though at your price 25 for €25, I would imagine they're lighter, at 21% protein that's (roughly) 30 grams of total protein in your chicken breast which cost you €1. So we'll say 100g of protein from chicken costs €3.33. A 5kg bag of myprotein impact whey costs €54.79, at 82% protein thats 4.1kg of total protein. So 100g of protein from whey protein powder costs €1.67.

Your advice certainly was 'simple', I think you've chosen a very apt term for it in fact. I still think real, honest advice is a better choice for him though.

How do you know 'I buy in to it'? I actually have to eat whole food protein because of my appetite, I'd say I take about three scoops of protein powder a week.

I don't buy these books, all the raw data is available for free on online, just use google scholar.

I don't think it's very responsible of you to label scientific fact as 'nonsense' as less experienced lifters who haven't been indoctrinated into the way of the bro, like some, will benefit from real science and not counter productive dogmatism.

K.I.S., 'mate'.

MickieD

I've spent enough time in America to know for a fact that for every argument by one fella theres a sound counter argument by another fella. I take it you have as well?

'Indoctrinated into the way of the bro'. Where on earth did you pluck that line out of? It sounds impressive though, I'll give you that. I'm starting to get the feeling you're in advertising.

I'm glad you do eat whole food protein, if you're in any kind of shape at all you can thank the whole food for it, personally I don't use whey or shakes at all. If it is indeed as good and cheap as you say it is, why don't fellas use it exclusively?

Very true...forums often are frequented by hot heads, but theyre also used and advised by doctors and nutritionists too who also laugh at the use of whey and protein and the type of long windedness you're coming out with.

Real honest advice, I never said you were a liar mate, I just felt you were bigging things up to sound all-knowing and informed when in fact you didn't give the OP any advice whatsoever.

It was simple advice mate, mock it/me if you like...but that's what works.

generic2012

I don't really understand how your time in America puts you in a better position to understand argument but how and ever. If someone has to argue to get a point across, you should be worried. Debate with the goal of coming to a mutual agreement is how it should be done, argueing is a verbal fight with a winner and a loser, not a great vehicle to give advice with.

'Indoctrinated into the way of the bro' - came up with that line myself, just for you. I think it sums up my views on misinformation in the fitness community quite well.

'If it is indeed as good and cheap as you say it is, why don't fellas use it exclusively?' - many people use it almost exclusively but as I said people like me with big appetites need the advantage of satiating whole foods, while younger lads or people with generally smaller appetites would do well to stock up on whey because it will allow them to eat more food. Half a kilo of mince suits my goals (and my farts aren't lethal) but not some one who finds it difficult to eat a lot. This whole things about enjoyment so not much point in having to force feed yourself whole food just because you think it has some magic advantage over whey protein.

'Very true...forums often are frequented by hot heads, but theyre also used and advised by doctors and nutritionists too who also laugh at the use of whey and protein and the type of long windedness you're coming out with' - well then why not get their advice directly from their sites/books. (Some advice, nutritionists do not always have a qualification while dieticians generally do, it's a legally protected title)

'Real honest advice, I never said you were a liar mate, I just felt you were bigging things up to sound all-knowing and informed when in fact you didn't give the OP any advice whatsoever.' - everyone else gave sound advice and he was even given a source to do his own research, all perfectly good advice for a beginner, there was no need to add anything. Teach a man to fish and all that. Discouraging him from taken bad advice was just as helpful input on my part I believe.

MickieD

I love your ''indoctrinated in the way of the bro'' phrase. I know full well you came up with it just for me, like all salesmen and the finest of B.S.'ers you have a lovely way with words. If in doubt, churn out the old bro-science accusation is it? What is this bro-science I offered the OP anyway?

I know a few lads and a few fellas on forums who have tried the whole whey protein only approach diet...it normally lasts for about 4 days and ends with a digestive horror story. I sincerely doubt you know people who use it exclusively or almost so.

I still maintain you didn't offer the OP advice at all except an obvious advertisers slogan of **''learn about nutrition and use it to you advantage''. Seriously, I hope you did not come up with that cheesy nugget yourself and read it on a Lyle McDonald blog or similar. Teach a man to fish and all that...yeah, you've got all the phrases of the B.S'.er alright.

I'm well aware of the professionally licensed difference between a dietician and a nutritionist. Why did you bother pointing this out to me? Did you assume I would not know the difference?

Edwardius

Lads, knock it off or you're both taking a break

generic2012

Time to call it quits when some one resorts to ad hominems

beaverfever

Losing fat: In my opinion I think you should work on dropping excess body fat first. Limit carbs to as low as 1 serving per day, eat healthy fats (nuts,avocados,olive oil) , lots of lean protein and green veggies. 2 pieces of fruit per day. 3 litres of water. In terms of exercise forget about walking/jogging on the treadmill for an hour if you want to effectively shed fat. You need to be doing short high intensity bouts of cardio like tabata's or hill sprints (do your own research into these, not enough time to give a proper explanation here). I can guarantee that within a fortnight the weight will be falling off of you. I would advise to not spend longer than a couple of months on the low carb diet but by this time you will probably have slimmed down enough to start lifting.

Gaining muscle: Now here comes the real fun part. Whereas before you were eating at a calorific deficit you will now be eating all around you! But the key thing is to continue getting your calories from "healthy" food sources- complex carbs, lean protein etc. While hitting the weights three times a week, concentrating on full body works with compound lifts (Squats, Deads, Bench, OHP, Barbell Bent Over Rows, Pull ups and Dips) using low rep ranges and heavy weights (again your own resarch will be needed here but I recommend looking into Mehdi Hadim's Stronglifts 5x5 or Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength).

So concentrate your efforts on cutting that unwanted fat first and then you can make some monster gains in the gym Have fun transforming your body!

Mr.Fun

Cheers beaverfever would everybody agree what is said above?

thegreatiam

Mr.Fun wrote: »

Cheers beaverfever would everybody agree what is said above?

beaverfever wrote: »

Losing fat: In my opinion I think you should work on dropping excess body fat first. Limit carbs to as low as 1 serving per day, eat healthy fats (nuts,avocados,olive oil) , lots of lean protein and green veggies. 2 pieces of fruit per day. 3 litres of water. In terms of exercise forget about walking/jogging on the treadmill for an hour if you want to effectively shed fat. You need to be doing short high intensity bouts of cardio like tabata's or hill sprints (do your own research into these, not enough time to give a proper explanation here). I can guarantee that within a fortnight the weight will be falling off of you. I would advise to not spend longer than a couple of months on the low carb diet but by this time you will probably have slimmed down enough to start lifting.

Gaining muscle: Now here comes the real fun part. Whereas before you were eating at a calorific deficit you will now be eating all around you! But the key thing is to continue getting your calories from "healthy" food sources- complex carbs, lean protein etc. While hitting the weights three times a week, concentrating on full body works with compound lifts (Squats, Deads, Bench, OHP, Barbell Bent Over Rows, Pull ups and Dips) using low rep ranges and heavy weights (again your own resarch will be needed here but I recommend looking into Mehdi Hadim's Stronglifts 5x5 or Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength).

So concentrate your efforts on cutting that unwanted fat first and then you can make some monster gains in the gym Have fun transforming your body!

no, start lifting now.
dont' wait til youve lost weight.

eat protein, eat carbs, (more on lifting days) and eat fats.

work out your tdee and eat slightly less.

Aim to slowly lose weight by building your muscles.

Feel free to do cardio if you wish, the high intensity variety that beaverfever mentions is a good idea.

If you cut, then bulk in that manner (eating everything in sight) you will just put the fat back on, do it controlled. Eat the correct amount of macros and eat a a slight deficit. No need to go low carb, firstly it is emotionally hard to do, you will go through a change as your body will crave carbs. and you will also need the carbs to help you do the exercise.

Everything else is decent enough advice:

Eat the correct amount of macros at a slight deficit, get started lifting weights with one of those programs and, if you wish do some high intensity cardio

Losing weight before lifting is fine, but its wiser to do use your time to do both, build the muscle while slowly dropping fat, then when you are at a decent target youll find it easier to slightly adjust your diet and program to cut down the last few % of BF, which will be easier as you ll have more muscle mass.