Loftbox and CCTV

deadl0ck

Hi all,

I have an 8-way loftbox and one of the newer Sky+ HD boxes (it has no RF out) and as a result I have the IO-Link (one of these) in order to get an RFOutput to my Loftbox

I am using the loftbox in a very simple way in that the Sky+ box is in the same room as the Loftbox so I run the 2 LNB direct to the Sky+ and not via the Loftbox

All this works fine, but I want to add a CCTV DVR feed to my TVs.

I have used an RF modulator to create an RF signal that I bring via Coax down to where the loftbox is, and I have connected it to the "CCTV AUX I/P" port on the loftbox but I can't get it on my TV.

I have connected the Coax from the Modulator/DVR directly to a test TV downstairs and I can tune it in (a little grainy but still fine) so I know the signal is there.

Is there something wrong with my setup as ? I'm guessing it could be to do with the fact I am not bringing the LNB signal via the loftbox in conjunction with a special wall plate ?
Or is it something much simpler ?

Here's a diagram of my setup to further explain :

Also- I have plugged the CCTV feed into the RF Out on the IO-Link and I can get the picture on my TVs, but it causes a lot of interference on the Sky Picture then

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated !

(I have also tried different channels on the RF modulator to no avail - currently Sky+ RF out is on channel 68 and CCTV Modulator is on channel 39)

Peter Rhea

Presume you mean you had the CCTV feed connected to the IO link RF-in? That should work.

What's the make & model of the 'loftbox'? Presume it's one of the Labgear or Triax models, as opposed to the device that is actually branded 'LoftBox'?

deadl0ck

Presume you mean you had the CCTV feed connected to the IO link RF-in? That should work.

Yep - sorry - meant the IO Link RF-In. That works but causes a degradation of the sky reception via RF (makes it grainy)

What's the make & model of the 'loftbox'? Presume it's one of the Labgear or Triax models, as opposed to the device that is actually branded 'LoftBox'?

It is the actual banded "LoftBox" : this one

Peter Rhea

For some reason I had it in my head that the LoftBox didn't have an aux. input.

It would seem the CCTV modulator is causing problems: can you post a link or some info on make & model? How long is the cable between modulator & LoftBox?

deadl0ck

It's one I got on eBay a few years back (yes - high quality stuff I'm sure)

Anyhow - here's one that looks identical : Clicky

Am I missing something obvious in my setup? Does the LoftBox just combine the RF out from sky with the other inputs and send them off to the other TVs ? Or does it need some power for this (I'm thinking of the fact that power goes to the LNB from the Sky box, but I'm not actually running this through the loftbox and it may have needed this somehow - of course I could be way off ! And anyhow the LoftBox has it's own power supply.....)

Peter Rhea

You can see here what the loftbox does re. combining & routing signals: http://www.satcure.com/tech/lofthelp.htm. It doesn't matter that the LNB feed bypasses the loftbox.

The way you have things set up, there is no point in connecting the CCTV feed to the loftbox either.

Could be worth trying attenuation of the CCTV modulator output. If it has no gain control, you could add a variable attenuator. Just as a matter of course, I would switch the Sky box RF output to a lower channel too, as this will mean less signal loss in cables.

deadl0ck

Hi Peter,

Thanks for the info, but I'm afraid I don't follow you.

You can see here what the loftbox does re. combining & routing signals: http://www.satcure.com/tech/lofthelp.htm. It doesn't matter that the LNB feed bypasses the loftbox.

The way you have things set up, there is no point in connecting the CCTV feed to the loftbox either.

Looking at the diagram..... does the loftbox output only distribute the Sky+ signal ?
So is that why you say there is no point in connecting the CCTV - if that's the case what's the point in the CCTV input in the first place ?

Could be worth trying attenuation of the CCTV modulator output. If it has no gain control, you could add a variable attenuator.

If my above setup would never work why this ? (Sorry if this is obvious)

Just as a matter of course, I would switch the Sky box RF output to a lower channel too, as this will mean less signal loss in cables.

Didn't realise the channel number had anything to do with signal loss !

Peter Rhea

There is a point in the CCTV input if the loftbox is used in the way its name would suggest: installed in a loft or somewhere else remote from the Sky box, with the living room output (carrying LNB, TV & radio aerial signals & CCTV) actually going to a room with a Sky box in it & the Sky box RF2 (carrying all UHF signals: Sky box modulator, CCTV & TV aerial) returning to the loftbox for distribution to other TVs. A HD box is wasted if none of the TVs have an actual HD signal feed from it.

The way you have it, with the Sky box & loftbox in the same room, there is no need to route the LNB signal through the loftbox & since there is no TV aerial, the CCTV feed can just be combined with the Sky RF via the IO link RF-in, no need to route it through the loftbox for combining with the TV aerial signal.

TVs other than that served by the living room output, take their feed from the UHF return, with only the VHF radio signals going direct from inputs to TV1, TV2 etc. outputs. Thought the satcure diagram made it pretty clear.

deadl0ck

A HD box is wasted if none of the TVs have an actual HD signal feed from it.

Yep - I wanted it for the On Demand box sets, not the HD - I had a very old Sky+ box that prevented me from getting the On Demand (or the usb add on for it). I got sky to give my the box for free and not charge for the HD for the first year (and I'll cancel the HD then before I get charged)

The way you have it, with the Sky box & loftbox in the same room, there is no need to route the LNB signal through the loftbox & since there is no TV aerial, the CCTV feed can just be combined with the Sky RF via the IO link RF-in, no need to route it through the loftbox for combining with the TV aerial signal.

I would be happy if the signal quality of Sky TV was OK when I add the CCTV feed, but it's not acceptable - that's why I though if I could combine earlier in the process it might help. Also - I'm hoping to add SaorView antenna signal to the house distribution (in addition to the CCTV) once I get the CCTV sorted.

TVs other than that served by the living room output, take their feed from the UHF return, with only the VHF radio signals going direct from inputs to TV1, TV2 etc. outputs. Thought the satcure diagram made it pretty clear.

OK- It's not that clear to me - I'm unclear about the UHF return - does it carry the CCTV and Sky channel signal (and potentially the saorview if I add it) or just the Sky channels ?
Ah....OK - So I see looking at the old sky box rear there was an "Aerial In" on the box where the UHF would have went - but it's not on the new Sky+HD box - so I must use the IO-Link - is that correct ?

So if I want Saorview I'm going to have to combine it somehow with CCTV before it goes into the "RF In" on the IO-Box - correct ?

Again I'm in no way proficient in this particular area and am just looking to fully understand the problem and how I might solve it

Peter Rhea

deadl0ck wrote: »

I'm unclear about the UHF return - does it carry the CCTV and Sky channel signal (and potentially the saorview if I add it) or just the Sky channels ?

It's intended to carry signals that pass through the Sky box RF in/out, which would be all the UHF signals: Sky RF, CCTV & TV aerial.

deadl0ck wrote: »

]So I see looking at the old sky box rear there was an "Aerial In" on the box where the UHF would have went - but it's not on the new Sky+HD box - so I must use the IO-Link - is that correct ?

Yes, the IO link replaces the missing RF parts.

deadl0ck wrote: »

So if I want Saorview I'm going to have to combine it somehow with CCTV before it goes into the "RF In" on the IO-Box

Somehow? Use the loftbox.

deadl0ck

Somehow? Use the loftbox.

This is the bit I'm unclear on

In the picture you linked to, if I run through the loftbox it will combine SaorView, CCTV and LNB.
Then at the wall plate it splits theses out again and the LNB goes direct to sky "LNB In 1"
In the old Sky box setup I believe the split out UHF signal (with Saorview and CCTV) then went to the "Aerial in" on the Sky box, which I'm guessing recombined them with the Sky RF out that has the Sky Channels and then this return feed goes to loftbox and around the house. Is that correct ?

In the new HD box there is no "Aerial In" - so how does this UHF signal (with CCTV and SaorView) get combined back in ?

Or can I run the combined feed from loftbox directly (without the wall plate splitter) to the "LNB in 1" on the new sky box and it will pull out what it needs and recombine them all on the output port (and then distribute via IO Link and loftbox) ?

Sorry if this is obvious (it's not to me !)

Peter Rhea

The IO link has an RF-in: you've already used it to combine CCTV & Sky. The problems you are having would seem to be down to the CCTV modulator.

If you get an aerial, connect it to TV ANT. input on loftbox, connect the CCTV to CCTV input & connect the living room output to the IO link RF-in.

deadl0ck

Thanks.

So currently I could connect the CCTV to the CCTV input on the loftbox, and the loftbox living room output to the IO-Link RF In ?
I guess that won't change anything but at least I would be then set up for the SaorView signal also.

The Variable attenuator - would I put that on the CCTV feed from the RF Modulator before it goes into the loftbox (or the IO-Link RF In) to help filter noise?
Also - can you recommend one or are they simple enough and an eBay one would be fine ?

Thanks for all your help so far !!

Peter Rhea

An attenuator like this one would do the job. Try it 1st without the CCTV routed through the loftbox, as the loftbox amplifies the CCTV signal.

The attenuator doesn't filter anything & might not be any help: it's just that an overly strong signal from the CCTV modulator might overload the IO link circuitry, so it's worth trying. Running the signal through a splitter, if you happen to have 1 lying around, would also provide some attenuation.

deadl0ck

I have a pretty long run downstairs via the attic etc to the loftbox so I would have thought the CCTV signal would not be as strong - also - it's a tad grainy if I plug it directly to the Tuner in my test TV.
Seems strange that it's causing interference with the Sky Signal when combined...but I'll try all the options you suggest (starting with lowering my Sky RF channel)

Peter Rhea

Without knowing the signal level where the CCTV feed connects to the IO link, & without knowing the max. signal the RF-in can handle, it's just guesswork.

It's possible your modulator is just no good & you'd be better off putting the cost of the attenuator towards a replacement, maybe 1 of these: http://www.vision-products.co.uk/catalogue/product/V40-104, which has built-in level adjustment.

deadl0ck

you'd be better off putting the cost of the attenuator towards a replacement, maybe 1 of these: http://www.vision-products.co.uk/cat...roduct/V40-104, which has built-in level adjustment.

Fair point - just got one on eBay for £25.
Thanks for all the help - I'll report back when I get it !

deadl0ck

OK- got the new modulator and it doesn't make any difference

Here are some pics (the picture is not as bad as it looks in the photo but you get the idea)

Here's the sky picture before I add the CCTV to the RF-In on the IOLink :
http://imageshack.us/a/img30/5681/ugqp.jpg

Here it is with the CCTV plugged in to the RF-In:
http://imageshack.us/a/img545/4672/w6pj.jpg

But here's the interesting thing - i decided to just plug in a piece of coax that doesn't connect to anything into the RF-In and it's makes the picture grainy too
Here's what I used :
http://imageshack.us/a/img577/7146/kzzk.jpg

So is it a problem with the IOLink when it combines 2 signals ?

As a workaround could I plug the CCTV into the CCTV input on the loftbox, plug the output of the RF link into the "Antenna" input on the loftbox and then plug the "Living Room" signal on the loftbox (which would be the IOLInk and CCTV combined) into the UHF2 input on the loftbox so it then gets distributed to the other TVs ?
Essentially using the loftbox to do the combine of the 2 signals.
Would this work ? I know I couldn't add a saorview but I could buy a combiner at a later date to do the same job, but this would essentially test the theory that the IOLink combiner is the problem....

Peter Rhea

Maybe your cables are picking up interference: could be from Saorview transmissions. You're in Westmeath? What channel was the Sky RF tuned to when you took your photos?

deadl0ck

Maybe your cables are picking up interference: could be from Saorview transmissions.

Not sure what you mean - it doesn't seem to be an issue if there is nothing plugged into the RF-In - if it was saorview transmissions interfering would they not interfere with the Sky signal from the IOLink on it's own ?

You're in Westmeath? What channel was the Sky RF tuned to when you took your photos?

I tried channel 69 and it's on 21 now I think (or maybe 23 - wife and kids looking at TV right now so I'll get attacked if I start trying to check it right now !)

Peter Rhea

It's just when you mentioned the short length of cable causing problems: thought it could have been acting as an aerial.

Presumably you still have the CCTV modulator tuned well away from the Sky RF?

deadl0ck

It's just when you mentioned the short length of cable causing problems: thought it could have been acting as an aerial.

Ah, ok.

Presumably you still have the CCTV modulator tuned well away from the Sky RF?

Channel 39

Peter Rhea

Hmmm . . . suppose another thing I don't know is what kind of cable connects the CCTV modulator to the comms. room. Any branding or 'RG' nos.?

deadl0ck

Zeus RG6 75 ohm coaxial cable

Peter Rhea

Just continue the process of elimination I suppose: you already suspect the IO link. (It looks like something you'd get with an early 90s game console.)

deadl0ck

(It looks like something you'd get with an early 90s game console.)

LOL. It's very like the old Sega Megadrive RF connector actually : http://www.the-liberator.net/site-files/retro-games/hardware/SEGA-Mega-Drive-II-Genesis-2/Sega-Mega-Drive-Genesis-II-2/Sega-Mega-Drive-II-Genesis-2-020.JPG