Sold a write off

tSeacha

Just wondering where I stand with this one.
Bought a car 3 years ago off a main dealer. Unfortunately, I crashed it a few weeks back and it was written off by the insurance company. When the company gave me a valuation I queried it as it was very low. They informed me that it was valued low as it was written off twice in the UK (cat D). I reluctantly accepted the valuation and would like to know where I stand as regards the main dealer. I have approached the dealer and he has offered some discount on a replacement but the discount seems to be minimal (€13000 for a car with a dashboard price €15500. It would seem that I could get the same car elsewhere for €13500. Is there more that that the main dealer should be doing?

Chimaera

It depends on whether or not you can prove the dealer knew it was a write-off before they sold it to you, and whether the price they sold the car to you at was representative of this fact.

A category D write-off in the UK would be a pretty minimally damaged car. The main reason for the write-off would be that it wasn't economical for the insurer to repair it. Typically these cars get sold off in the trade and repaired for resale at a reduced value. Once the repair work is done properly and the paperwork properly done, it's fine.

If the dealer knew at the time of sale to you that it had been written off in the UK, and sold it to you on the basis that it had no write-off history, then you might have a case against them for misrepresenting goods. You'd have to prove though that they knew it was a write-off to begin with. You would probably also end up in a position of having to show that the price they sold it to you at was at the market level for a similar car without a write-off history (basically if they discounted the car heavily against the going market rate for that make/model you've already been compensated for the car's history and your case is weakened).

_Kaiser_

Chimaera wrote: »

If the dealer knew at the time of sale to you that it had been written off in the UK, and sold it to you on the basis that it had no write-off history, then you might have a case against them for misrepresenting goods. You'd have to prove though that they knew it was a write-off to begin with. You would probably also end up in a position of having to show that the price they sold it to you at was at the market level for a similar car without a write-off history (basically if they discounted the car heavily against the going market rate for that make/model you've already been compensated for the car's history and your case is weakened).

From reading the OP I'd take it that the dealer DID know by virtue of the fact that they have already offered a discount on a replacement. All depends on the detail of that conversation though and at what point the offer was made and in what context.

bazz26

The question is do you really want to buy another car from him if he knowingly sold you a Cat D write off without telling you, irrespective of what discount he offers you?

tSeacha

I'd have to say that I originally paid the market value price for a straight car. As to whether or not he knew it was written off, I suppose we will never know.
My reason for going back to him for another car was in the hope of a decent discount which would allow me to draw a line in the sand and move on without wondering if I should take a case against the dealer some time in the future.
From my interpretation of the previous posts it would seem that from a legal perspective it's not black and white although I'd assume that a main dealer would not be comfortable with being in front of the courts and his name in the paper etc..

Anan1

bazz26 wrote: »

The question is do you really want to buy another car from him if he knowingly sold you a Cat D write off without telling you, irrespective of what discount he offers you?

In principle the answer would have to be yes, IMO at least.

yop

Rock and hard place with this one. AS the lads said I think he did know. Can you tell him that you need a full carcheck report and see if that scares him. IF it does, then walk away. If he does and you see its another UK import, then ask him for the UK reports also.

Anan1

yop wrote: »

Rock and hard place with this one. AS the lads said I think he did know. Can you tell him that you need a full carcheck report and see if that scares him. IF it does, then walk away. If he does and you see its another UK import, then ask him for the UK reports also.

OP might be better advised to run their own check this time.

yop

Anan1 wrote: »

OP might be better advised to run their own check this time.

For sure, but check the reaction of the dealer also. If they have nothing to hide then let them run it (and pay for it!).

A discount is great to get but if it costs the OP in the long run then I wouldn't go near them.

biko

It'd be a pretty stupid dealer that didn't run a check on a car they pay good money for when importing from UK.
Then again anything is possible.

As said Cat D is minimal damage and it's not unheard off that a UK insurance company writes a car off as Cat D and has the fault fixed - then sells the car on in UK 2nd hand market. It's money saving thing and it's perfectly legal.
Then one day it finds its way to ol' Ireland for a new life.
Here an insurance company finds out that it was written off as CatD and use that as an excuse to wriggle out of paying money out.

The vehicle is economically repairable but other factors are involved that cause the insurer to declare the vehicle a write off.

djimi

When it comes to a dealer, does it matter whether they knew about the write off or not? Is it not up to them to know what they are selling you, and if they fail to disclose information like this (be it intentionally or otherwise) then they are responsible?

eisenberg1

In the event of a write off, where the insurance company tell you your car is worth only 10,000, despite being insured for 12k. They then agree to pay you 10k, minus the salvage of say, 3K (their rate), which you leaves you 7K, and a write off to dispose of. Is the onus on you to sell for salvage? I would have thought the insurance company would give you the full 10k, and take the car and they get the salvage value.....what happens if you cant sell for the 3k....?

tSeacha

My own experience is that no matter how high you value the car you will only receive the open market selling value of the car. As regards the scrap value, my insurance company sold the car for scrap themselves and gave me the open market value of the car. They did however indicate a scrap value for the car and said if I wanted to try and sell it for scrap myself then they would omit the scrap value from my settlement.
In other words they gave me the option to sell my car as scrap. I declined as it was not something I wanted to be dealing with while trying to sort out replacement cars etc.

bazz26

You can insure a €500 banger for €1m if you want and the insurance company will happily take your money to do so but they will only pay out based on it's current market value.

yop

tSeacha wrote: »

My own experience is that no matter how high you value the car you will only receive the open market selling value of the car. As regards the scrap value, my insurance company sold the car for scrap themselves and gave me the open market value of the car. They did however indicate a scrap value for the car and said if I wanted to try and sell it for scrap myself then they would omit the scrap value from my settlement.
In other words they gave me the option to sell my car as scrap. I declined as it was not something I wanted to be dealing with while trying to sort out replacement cars etc.

I bought the crashed car off them after I rang around selling it to the scrap yards. I got about 1500 euro more for mine than what the insurance offered me.

djimi

bazz26 wrote: »

You can insure a €500 banger for €1m if you want and the insurance company will happily take your money to do so but they will only pay out based on it's current market value.

Ive often wondered about this; how are they allowed to base a premium on a value that you put on the car, if they are not going to pay out based on that valuation? Surely if they are going to pay out based on what they think the car is worth, then they should not be allowed to charge more based on a higher valuation?

eisenberg1

tSeacha wrote: »

My own experience is that no matter how high you value the car you will only receive the open market selling value of the car. As regards the scrap value, my insurance company sold the car for scrap themselves and gave me the open market value of the car. They did however indicate a scrap value for the car and said if I wanted to try and sell it for scrap myself then they would omit the scrap value from my settlement.
In other words they gave me the option to sell my car as scrap. I declined as it was not something I wanted to be dealing with while trying to sort out replacement cars etc.

Cheers for that, re the market value I accept, but its a bit lower than market. I am the same, wont have the time of the inclination to go looking for salvage buyers, so I will see if they will give me full amount and take the salvage themselves. Thanks

yop

djimi wrote: »

Ive often wondered about this; how are they allowed to base a premium on a value that you put on the car, if they are not going to pay out based on that valuation? Surely if they are going to pay out based on what they think the car is worth, then they should not be allowed to charge more based on a higher valuation?

Thats what I only realized when I was in that situation and I THINK most people think that if they insure it for say 8k euro and pay the premium that they will get 8k into their hand.
Its been a good few years now but roughly what happened what that I had it insured for say 9k. They came back and reckoned the car was worth 5k. It was probably worth 7.5.
I then went and sent in about 5 adverts where the same car was for sale and i managed to get them to give me 7k or so for the car.
So you won't get what its insured for but you need to fight.

eisenberg1

yop wrote: »

I bought the crashed car off them after I rang around selling it to the scrap yards. I got about 1500 euro more for mine than what the insurance offered me.

Food for thought.......not asking specifics, but approx. over all value?

yop

eisenberg1 wrote: »

Food for thought.......not asking specifics, but approx. over all value?

Ok
I had to do a bit of rooting for the emails as it was 2009.

Cars i found similar were 11k euro, but to be honest the car was probably worth closer to 10-10500.

They offered me 8500 euro initially. I rejected it.
They then valued the car at 9500 and told me the scrap of the car was worth 500 euro.
The lad in the insurance was as sound as you can get and he told me, which I didn't know at the time, to buy the car off them and to ring around and sell it myself.
So I agreed to take 9000 euro.
I sold the car to Traynors for 1650.

Hope that helps. Sorry about the previous figures but its been 4 years

eisenberg1

Cheers for that, will let you know how it pans out when the dust settles.......

yop

eisenberg1 wrote: »

Cheers for that, will let you know how it pans out when the dust settles.......

Don't be put off by the scrap yards. I got all the pictures of the car and listed everything in the car worth selling so that they could get me a quote. Emailed them all then with the pics.
Got 3 offers and Traynors were the best.

vinnie13

Sorry to say but suck it up and move in,sadly there's not much you can do now once you accepted the offer.
The dealer is not really giving you a great deal probably what he would sell it to anyone for
You could try to tackle the dealer legally but that could lead to lots of costs and trying to prove you were sold a lemon could be tricky..
I would try asking this question on the legal discussion here on boards.ie it might be more help

mathepac

Chimaera wrote: »

It depends on whether or not you can prove the dealer knew it was a write-off before they sold it to you, and whether the price they sold the car to you at was representative of this fact.....

As a professional the motor-trader is obliged to know, because selling a dangerous car is an offence. As the OP's insurance company can now point to the data from years ago detailing the car's history. the motor trader cannot deny knowledge - he is legally obligated to establish the car's condition before selling on to the public.

Bigcheeze

Have a lightly damaged car, probably worth 3.5k undamaged with a repair quote of 2k to fix. Are insurance company likely to scrap it with those numbers?

djimi

Bigcheeze wrote: »

Have a lightly damaged car, probably worth 3.5k undamaged with a repair quote of 2k to fix. Are insurance company likely to scrap it with those numbers?

I think write off is usually upwards of 60% of the cars value, so Id say you would be okay.

I had a Civic that was worth about that, and the insurer was happy to pay out €2200 in repairs with no mention of a write off.