Diet for winter milkers

Timmaay

Ok, very basic setup here, We usually just feed the cows grass silage, and parlour fed nuts during the winter. I'm under quota at the minute, so am happy enough to try drive on production for the minute. Most the herd are spring calvers, but calving pattern is fairly spreadout so I will have about 50 cows putting out between 10 and 35L for the most of the winter. Anyways, I could keep going as I am now, however I've some cows on up to 7kg of a high spec 18%P parlour fed nut, and I think even thats pushing it, I don't want them milking their backs off. The grass silage is quite decent at 76dmd, 26dm, but protein not great at 11%.

I've afew options, which are as follows:

Maize
Beet
cheap ration
Stay as is, with the grass silage and parlour fed nuts

I think I've missed the boat on Maize, the harvest was alittle earlier than I thought it would be, and I didn't really have anywhere to store it. Washed beet can be got easy enough around here, but we have nothing to chop beet with here at the minute, and the workload isn't too appealing, then there are issues with storing it in cold weather, and the low protein of it doesn't help the fact that myown silage isn't great. I can get a cheap ration for not much over 200quid/ton, then buffer feed that to all the milkers in the middle of the day on top of their silage. My only concern here is that I might end up feeding too high a % concentrate to the higher yielding cows, who will be getting up to the 7kg of nuts in the parlour.

My final option is not to bother with any of the above, take the hit on milk yields and dry off cows alittle earlier if they lose condition at all.

Anyways any suggestions, or alternative ideas?

td5man

Timmaay wrote: »

Ok, very basic setup here, We usually just feed the cows grass silage, and parlour fed nuts during the winter. I'm under quota at the minute, so am happy enough to try drive on production for the minute. Most the herd are spring calvers, but calving pattern is fairly spreadout so I will have about 50 cows putting out between 10 and 35L for the most of the winter. Anyways, I could keep going as I am now, however I've some cows on up to 7kg of a high spec 18%P parlour fed nut, and I think even thats pushing it, I don't want them milking their backs off. The grass silage is quite decent at 76dmd, 26dm, but protein not great at 11%.

I've afew options, which are as follows:

Maize
Beet
cheap ration
Stay as is, with the grass silage and parlour fed nuts

I think I've missed the boat on Maize, the harvest was alittle earlier than I thought it would be, and I didn't really have anywhere to store it. Washed beet can be got easy enough around here, but we have nothing to chop beet with here at the minute, and the workload isn't too appealing, then there are issues with storing it in cold weather, and the low protein of it doesn't help the fact that myown silage isn't great. I can get a cheap ration for not much over 200quid/ton, then buffer feed that to all the milkers in the middle of the day on top of their silage. My only concern here is that I might end up feeding too high a % concentrate to the higher yielding cows, who will be getting up to the 7kg of nuts in the parlour.

My final option is not to bother with any of the above, take the hit on milk yields and dry off cows alittle earlier if they lose condition at all.

Anyways any suggestions, or alternative ideas?

Beet pulp nuts arent a lot dearer than fodder beet.
I'm feeding bp and soya through the diet feeder, i dont like cheap mixes because theyre cheap for a reason.

jersey101

were giving cows 4kg 16% ration in parlour 1kg in feeder also along with 1kg beet pulp in feeder. Thinking of buying a bin some time a filling it with beet pulo or citrus for the winter

delaval

jersey101 wrote: »

were giving cows 4kg 16% ration in parlour 1kg in feeder also along with 1kg beet pulp in feeder. Thinking of buying a bin some time a filling it with beet pulo or citrus for the winter

6 kg how much per kg and how they milking?

Farmer Pudsey

The question you have to ask yourself is have you enough silage to feed with that quanity of nut. These cows would need about 15kgs of DM/day. Now ration is providing 6kgs of it and silage is providing rest. They are balanced at about 15% total protein.

I think your issue is you want to replace some of the silage with another feed and increase intake. In my opinion you still need to balance around 15P at least. Maize, beet, beet pulp, Soya hulls, citrus are all low protein products of around 11P. Your best bet is to spec a specific ration and balance the total diet. No point in having two rations on hand. If you want to reduce your silage intake back to 5/6kgs.

As you will be feeding a large quanity of Nut/ration you need to include a lot of fibre. You can still feed high yielding cows in parlour large amounts and buffer feed during the day across silage.

The other option is to just buffer feed a low P mixture across silage during the day but your higher yielding cows may not benefit as much as you want. I be inclined to get an animal Nutritionist to spec a ration and price it off 2-3 mills.

jersey101

delaval wrote: »

6 kg how much per kg and how they milking?

reckon there on 22+, there bursting when they come into the parlour. Ive a good few heifers along with march calvers and there doing well. They were on 4kg in the parlour only but they were going through silage too quick. Also forage rape is half gone after 2 weeks so had to do something to slow them down a bit. Nut is costing us 315 for 16%.
Were moving to a different crowd that will give us a 18% p nut for 290. Ill cut out the nuts in the feeder when we get that.

stanflt

jersey101 wrote: »

reckon there on 22+, there bursting when they come into the parlour. Ive a good few heifers along with march calvers and there doing well. They were on 4kg in the parlour only but they were going through silage too quick. Also forage rape is half gone after 2 weeks so had to do something to slow them down a bit. Nut is costing us 315 for 16%.
Were moving to a different crowd that will give us a 18% p nut for 290. Ill cut out the nuts in the feeder when we get that.

Even at 290 a ton I hope their giving you a saddle free

whelan1

stanflt wrote: »

Even at 290 a ton I hope their giving you a saddle free

yup totally mental prices out there, shouldnt have to pay anywhere near 300 for a good one

mahoney_j

jersey101 wrote: »

reckon there on 22+, there bursting when they come into the parlour. Ive a good few heifers along with march calvers and there doing well. They were on 4kg in the parlour only but they were going through silage too quick. Also forage rape is half gone after 2 weeks so had to do something to slow them down a bit. Nut is costing us 315 for 16%.
Were moving to a different crowd that will give us a 18% p nut for 290. Ill cut out the nuts in the feeder when we get that.

315 for a 16% is fairly steep.just check the ingridents on the 18% .a few of winter boys round here are paying that and less for a high spec 18%.also ask for ufl content which should be every much of a concern as protein %.if your looking for another feed to bring in then go for maize silage.serious stuff for milkers and also get a nutritionist to balance your total diet at no more than16%.

stanflt

My diet is at 15% max never higher and I don't think I need any more milk

Sales reps love selling high protein


If your struggling for protien buy soya straight as its much cheaper than buying a fancy ration

Soya will be around 400 a ton but you will only need 1 kg as appossed to 3-4 of a nut

jersey101

Well id say use all know where im getting the 16% from? That's why im moving. The ration we will be getting has 0.96 ufl and is nearly grain, barley wheat maize soya and beet pulp and one or two others it seems a good ration.

td5man

jersey101 wrote: »

Well id say use all know where im getting the 16% from? That's why im moving. The ration we will be getting has 0.96 ufl and is nearly grain, barley wheat maize soya and beet pulp and one or two others it seems a good ration.

I prefer to use straights as you can see what youre feeding .

jersey101

td5man wrote: »

I prefer to use straights as you can see what youre feeding .

been down that road of mixing a tonne of meal a week, dont want to go back to it. It is a superior feed but i havent got tge sheds to do it.

Bactidiaryl

€315 for 16%. :eek: :eek: :eek:

whelan1

Bactidiaryl wrote: »

€315 for 16%. :eek: :eek: :eek:

It's made of gold

bob charles

stanflt wrote: »

Soya will be around 400 a ton but you will only need 1 kg as appossed to 3-4 of a nut

Im not a physical soya buyer but you wont get anything for €450 I should think, with price to drop back a shade in the coming weeks. soya would also be able to replace a kilo of barley wheat so in reality your protein is costing 250 a ton

Just looking at this thread, its easy see why some have problems getting milk out of cows during the winter. there isnt near enough quality energy being provided in the diet. I fail to see why dairy people are so hung up on protein, its important yes but not the be all and end all

case 956

whelan1 wrote: »

It's made of gold

they'd want to be milking gold

mahoney_j

bob charles wrote: »

Im not a physical soya buyer but you wont get anything for €450 I should think, with price to drop back a shade in the coming weeks. soya would also be able to replace a kilo of barley wheat so in reality your protein is costing 250 a ton

Just looking at this thread, its easy see why some have problems getting milk out of cows during the winter. there isnt near enough quality energy being provided in the diet. I fail to see why dairy people are so hung up on protein, its important yes but not the be all and end all

Agree re protein ,much more important to have hi energy than 18 or 20% protein.ufl:/energy content should be first port of call when checking a ration or nut and getting good sources of cut like maize ,wheat or barley

Timmaay

After scanning today, I guess I better get my act together with this winter diet, I wont be getting out of it anyday soon!

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

As you will be feeding a large quanity of Nut/ration you need to include a lot of fibre. You can still feed high yielding cows in parlour large amounts and buffer feed during the day across silage.

The other option is to just buffer feed a low P mixture across silage during the day but your higher yielding cows may not benefit as much as you want. I be inclined to get an animal Nutritionist to spec a ration and price it off 2-3 mills.

The 1st one of these is certainly what I'm leaning towards. I wont be cutting out the parlour nuts, even if this means having to buy two different spec concentrates. What I'd probably end up doing is feeding the lower yielding lactation cows 3kg of the 18% nut in the parlour, high yeilders up to 7kg, and then maybe buffer feed the whole lot maybe 3kg or so of a lower P cheaper ration during the day. I didn't make this too clear earlier, but I'm not hugely short on silage, I dont have enough for a 5month winter or anything, but the late grazing season has let me conserve some, and alongside afew extra bales of straw, we should get by fine if its a late spring. I'm just trying to maximize intakes, to produce as much milk as possible, and help hold condition on the cows.

Anyways, I guess I've afew questions:

1)Is it worth feeding these higher yeilding cows 7kg in the parlour (twice 3.5kg), and then 3kg at midday, our cows aren't hugely milky or anything, 35L/day is about all they will top out at, however solids from early lactation winter calvers are always poor by us, I would like to improve this.

2)If they get this 10kg in concentrates, how much silage are they lightly to eat on top of it?

3) Is 10kg of concentrates (and probably more for some of the greedy cows) too much in the diet, and likely to lead me down other problems like acidosis etc?

Farmer Pudsey

Timmaay wrote: »

After scanning today, I guess I better get my act together with this winter diet, I wont be getting out of it anyday soon!



The 1st one of these is certainly what I'm leaning towards. I wont be cutting out the parlour nuts, even if this means having to buy two different spec concentrates. What I'd probably end up doing is feeding the lower yielding lactation cows 3kg of the 18% nut in the parlour, high yeilders up to 7kg, and then maybe buffer feed the whole lot maybe 3kg or so of a lower P cheaper ration during the day. I didn't make this too clear earlier, but I'm not hugely short on silage, I dont have enough for a 5month winter or anything, but the late grazing season has let me conserve some, and alongside afew extra bales of straw, we should get by fine if its a late spring. I'm just trying to maximize intakes, to produce as much milk as possible, and help hold condition on the cows.

Anyways, I guess I've afew questions:

1)Is it worth feeding these higher yeilding cows 7kg in the parlour (twice 3.5kg), and then 3kg at midday, our cows aren't hugely milky or anything, 35L/day is about all they will top out at, however solids from early lactation winter calvers are always poor by us, I would like to improve this.

2)If they get this 10kg in concentrates, how much silage are they lightly to eat on top of it?

3) Is 10kg of concentrates (and probably more for some of the greedy cows) too much in the diet, and likely to lead me down other problems like acidosis etc?

1. If cows are eating 10kgs of ration costing on average 270/ton then they are costing 2.7 euro on ration they will eat 7kgs DM silage ([EMAIL="28kgs@25%DM"]28kgs@25%DM[/EMAIL] costing 25/ton) costing 40c/day so total diet is costing 3.10/day. These cows if averaging 30L/day are bring in 12 euro/day @40c/litre. You also have to remember as dry cows they be costing maybe 1.5 euro/day. Are they paying are they [EMAIL="F@@K"]F@@K[/EMAIL]. Even cows milking 10L with high solids may be turning over 3 euro/day profit.

2. If these cows are 650khs LW I would imagine that they are eating at least 2.5% of body weight. I am not an expert on dairy cows however I have seen Friesian bulls eat this much and Jersey bulls eat 3% of bodyweight. That means that they will eat about 16kgs of DM. Now if on 10Kgs of ration/nuts it will make up 8.5 kgs of this so they will eat about 7.5kgs silage DM equivalent to 30kgs at 25%DM.

3. I would not think so but you would want to build up gradually. No point in adding 3kgs onto silage and continuing with 7kgs/day in parlour. Would also consider a buffer like limestone flour. However I am not sure if this has repecussions in cows.

Couple of things I wonder about how do you dairy boys get minerals into cows. If in the ration a cow on 7kgs might be getting 180grams/day (too much) while a cow on 3kgs might be getting only 75grams/day(too little)

Bob is right about energy lads advocating beet plup, citrus/Soyahulls are often fooling them selves. Barley is 200 euro/ton is coming in at as cheap if not cheaper than some. However as you get up high in rations fibre is often easier to feed safely.

However I am a fan of concentrating on total diet especially on any animal that you are pushing to preform(cows milking 30/day). That is why rather than messing with two-three different products I would advacote one ration balanced to your silage and feed extra to cows milking high amounts

As a matter of interest can any of you dairy farmers tell me the the ideal P content of a dairy cows diet. This is not a trick question I do not know but would like to. Information is a dangerous thing.

Lastly Tim beware of late scanning , when you scan late in the pregnancy scanners are only guessing about calving dates. saw a lad put a lot of milk in the slurry tank because of this as cows were caught by withdrawal date on tubes.

Timmaay

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

As a matter of interest can any of you dairy farmers tell me the the ideal P content of a dairy cows diet. This is not a trick question I do not know but would like to. Information is a dangerous thing.

Lastly Tim beware of late scanning , when you scan late in the pregnancy scanners are only guessing about calving dates. saw a lad put a lot of milk in the slurry tank because of this as cows were caught by withdrawal date on tubes.

Thanks FP, very conclusive answer, its an area that I'll admit not having 1/2 enough knowledge on, and have been pulled in different directions by different salesmen/advisers.

On your question, Stan just answered it afew posts back, 15% max in his case.

And we dont run the Bull with the cows at all (too many small cows who he would flatten), so I have fairly accurate dates for most animals.

rs8

fellow i do a few days for is feeding around 70 cows with

330kg of meal (made up everything pulp,wheat etc)

1000kg of mazie/whole crop
2000kg of silage

delaval

jersey101 wrote: »

reckon there on 22+, there bursting when they come into the parlour. Ive a good few heifers along with march calvers and there doing well. They were on 4kg in the parlour only but they were going through silage too quick. Also forage rape is half gone after 2 weeks so had to do something to slow them down a bit. Nut is costing us 315 for 16%.
Were moving to a different crowd that will give us a 18% p nut for 290. Ill cut out the nuts in the feeder when we get that.

Will you be able to park feeder if not only feeding silage

jersey101

delaval wrote: »

Will you be able to park feeder if not only feeding silage

ohbid love that but the father wouldn't agree. I call it a big wheel barrow. Bit cant really we have throughs to feed the silage into and we would have to move them. Id prefere not have the feeder, waste of time IMO

delaval

jersey101 wrote: »

ohbid love that but the father wouldn't agree. I call it a big wheel barrow. Bit cant really we have throughs to feed the silage into and we would have to move them. Id prefere not have the feeder, waste of time IMO

Remove troughs if they are mobile and line up bales feed three times a week!!

jersey101

delaval wrote: »

Remove troughs if they are mobile and line up bales feed three times a week!!

well there sort of removable, there steel posts put in the ground and timber bolted to them.