ATH Knockout match: KanKan14 vs Machismo fan

Bounty Hunter

Liz & TSC are taking their time with their point counter point part of their match up and games 1 & 2 have essentially dropped off page 1 so why not start the next match already.

This is the first time this tournie that im using a submitted question too (remember folks you can pm me more suggestions) so cheers D.Q for you submission below

Simplified version of the rules:

I will post a topic and you have to post your response including why you made that choice within a given time limit (before the next match is scheduled to begin), take care while making your responses however as the other contestant can counter your arguement i.e pointing out possible flaws in what youve said.

*you can only counter an arguement two times so make sure your point is worth making. If someone's defense of their arguement isnt good it will count against them.

*You can use the same answer as your opponent if you wish i.e you agree with their choice however its hard to win a debate when your making the same points someone has already made

see the OP of the main thread for further details or if any examples are needed check out previous years competitions.

If you could go back in time and change one pivotal moment in Pro wrestling history, what would it be, why would you change it and what would you do differently. (were talking creatively here, nobody can change what Benoit did unfortunately for example)


after your first post: why would your choice be better than your oponents?

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so have at it and g'luck lads!

Kankan14

Machismo fan

I've found this question a real toughie.
Here's about all I could come up with.

The pivotal moment in history I would go back and change is the forming of The Corporate Ministry.

At a time when WWF was at a peak it might sound like a silly thing to change but bear with me.

The ministry of Darkness and the Corporation feuded for not long enough and there was tons of potential as two seperate factions for me.

The ministry on their own were such a good idea and massive draw to me. While Vince revealing himself as the higher power to Austin et al was good it wasn’t needed at all. For two years at that stage we had watched Austin break rules and go against Vince's authority so it was to me a short needless spectacle.

The ministry on there own really could have been an awesome force. Taker leading a faction single handed(with a lil Paul Bearer guidance) was money.
Test Bossman and Shamrock were all lost in a sea of superstars to me,if they were corporate members feuding with Ministry members amongst others it could have produced countless good angles and matches.

I would have had The Rock as the Corporate number one in a 4 way feud with Austin,Mankind and the Ministry leader Undertaker. Fatal four ways and triple threats at PPVs a must and several screwy spots with Corporation and Ministry getting involved in matches and leading to all out brawls between the two groups. With Mankind and Austin one upping each other and Taker/Rock at every opportunity.

Now this frees up the accolytes to feud with Test and Bossman who really could have worked as a tag team. Throw in the new age outlaws and a quality battle for tag team gold can be had.

Edge and Christian were early in their careers at this point but they already showed huge potential so you could involve Christian with X-Pac and Shano Mac in the European title feud, that have got me interested in it some more.
Edge could be a real contender for Interconinental gold in competition with Shamrock,Goldust,Val Venus etc.

Add to this a clash of super-heavyweights when Viscera battles with Big Show. Something which might have got Big Daddy V over just the pure spectacle of it.

Mideon always had the potential to be an Al Snow type to me. Wrestling with wreckless abandonment in the hardcore division with Snow and Hardcore Holly and the rest.
Also Gangrel could have gone a lot further with the Vampire look. Imagine an angle where he's going around biting people turning them into the undead, it might sound crazy but could look really cool if produced properly.

So to me its not as though Vince didn’t do something excellent when combining The Corporation and Ministry but it could have been epic to leave the Ministry solely under Takers leadership,and thats why the pivotal moment I'd change is the unification of The Corporation and the Ministry of Darkness.

Machismo Fan

Went back and forth on which to change (there really are a load of options) but the event I'd change happened at Survivor Series 2001: I would have The Alliance defeat the WWF in the Winner Takes All elimination match giving WCW and ECW complete control of Raw, Smackdown and the WWF.

The main reason I chose this was I think it'd be most fun to play out. I toyed with stuff like Goldberg not losing to Nash, Nexus winning at Summerslam 2010, Russo never coming to TNA and Joe winning the title at BFG 2006 (my runner up), and doing the Punk 2011 stuff properly (a little too straightforward) but in terms of an angle which if played out properly could have had resulted in a real difference in the state of the industry, keeping the Invasion storyline going would've opened a world of possibilities for really good TV.

With The Alliance winning that would've turned the Invasion dynamic on it's head. Shane, Steph and Heyman are now in control and it's the WWF guys left out in the cold. You'd have a few weeks of ECW and WCW guys mostly dominating TV with the likes of Rock, 'Taker and Kane etc. doing big run ins and causing chaos. Eventually you'd build to the WWF guys regaining regular access by doing another big team vs. team match to put both sides on level pegging.

After that the possibilities are endless. Anybody that debuts can pick a side and immediately be established with the audience, you could have the likes of Brock Lesnar debut with no allegiance and after establishing himself both sides could begin to recruit him, not too mention some fun with defections and inter-promotional matches.

What makes the angle most interesting is that people would constantly be debuting to re-inject life into the angle. Flair would debut the next night, the nWo in February, Bischoff in July, Steiner in November and Goldberg in April the next year. Each time you have a big star coming in giving the angle new life and create a new batch of dream matches. Also a power struggle within The Alliance between Bischoff, Heyman, Shane and Steph would've been great fun (though you would have to be wary of fragmenting the group ala the nWo).

Obviously in real life the angle would never happen because too many egos would get in the way, but in terms of changing a pivotal moment in wrestling history in a way that would create a tonne of big matches, big moments, and plenty of room for fun and creativity I don't think you could do much better than this.

Bounty Hunter

The poll will be added to this later today so hopefully you get a chance to get some rebuttals in, but atleast you have your OP down as stands

Kankan14

Machismo fan

Yours is definitely a good idea in a way. However I think the Invasion angle was pretty much awesome as it was and would have been dragged out too much with a longer feud between companies.

Essentially Vince wanted to integrate WCW/ECW stars as quick as possible. He knows WWF fans are smart enough that he can't just chuck in 20 or so new performers.So he has to integrate them as soon as by the invasion angle.
I would have been about 15 years old when the invasion was in action and I for one would have found it way too dragged out should it not culminate in a WWf win at the time it did.

Really what I'm saying is Vince wanted to WCW and ECW brand(as they stood then ) dead in a way that further embellished his own product and without doubt it satisfied his ego no end also.
So I think your idea while good is just not feasible.

That's pretty much why I think my choice is better.

Machismo Fan

Oh I freely admit in the real world it'd never work (I mention that at the end of my answer) but I think that's the fun of this particular question, being able to take something that was messed up or mishandled and with the benefit of hindsight suggesting how it could have been done so much better.

There was clear interest in the Invasion angle as illustrated by just how well the Invasion PPV did until WWE treated the WCW/ECW guys as inferior jokes and that was without much of the star power. Well handled, treating the Alliance and WWF guys as equals and with the staggered entry of the nWo, Bischoff, Mysterio, Steiner, Flair and Goldberg I don't see how the angle, well handled, has any less than two years legs in it. There are just too many possible ways to take it and big matches to do for it to lose steam.

I think my choice would've helped in a large way to stem the decline of WWE post the purchase of WCW and opens the door to so many potential opportunities for great matches and moments.

Kankan14

Machismo fan

Well played sir, good game!

Bounty Hunter

Hope more can vote in the next few but sometimes in hard to call ones people abstain from voting either way congrats and commiserations folks, the MFer moves on