Taking up a Language in 6th Year

2creator

So I already do HL French but am woeful at it. I know it's poor form to blame this on my teacher but in this case it's at least partially the fault. Any motivation or enjoyment I might have had for learning the language has been sucked right out of it as she just blabbers on for classes at a time and buries us in sheets she expects us to go through ourselves. Contrast this to Irish where the change in a teacher has made me significantly better at the language and I'm improving more each day which shows that being a poor student isn't exactly my fault entirely, it can (and does) also depend on the teacher. I try studying for French but every time I think I've gotten better I end up being unable to replicate what I've learned. I feel this is partially due to the hatred she has incited in me for the language in teaching it in such a methodical dry way. I've had 4 years of this and I'm fed up with it.

Now I took German and French together up until Junior Cert where I got an A in German and a B in French (Don't ask me why I took French at LC Level, I don't know). I know junior cert results don't really mean anything for LC but I think it shows I do have a background in the language to build on. Basically I'm wondering if it's too late to switch to German having missed the fifth year course. As German was a language I thoroughly enjoyed learning and speaking at junior cert I'd be more than willing to put in the work to catch up and hopefully do well in it. Anybody here in a similar situation or with a background in German want to tell me how to proceed?

spurious

I'd be asking the German class and teacher did they want someone who had missed half the course arriving into their class, or did you mean studying German outside school?

Canard

It's no harm to try, you're obviously good at German and languages in general - but that said, I'd advise you to keep up French too! Why not find someone to teach you the LC German course in 1 year, but maybe who also knows French? That way you could sort of synchronize your notes. I don't know if that would be helpful, but I've always found making French/Spanish notes combined is useful. Listening to music in the languages can really help with learning it, and it also makes it seem like less of a school-related thing, it becomes more real.

Have a look in the useful links thread at the top of this forum, I added in a lot for French and a few for German a while ago. It's a pity that you're not enjoying French, a bad teacher really can ruin it, but it's a great language/subject.

2creator

spurious wrote: »

I'd be asking the German class and teacher did they want someone who had missed half the course arriving into their class, or did you mean studying German outside school?

Inside school preferably. I've asked people in the class and they said that if I put the work in catching up would be very achievable. One of them is going to mention it to her on Monday or I will if I see her.

feargale

spurious wrote: »

I'd be asking the German class and teacher did they want someone who had missed half the course arriving into their class, or did you mean studying German outside school?

You'd need to be sure you're going to like the German teacher. You'll be rightly snookered if not.

2creator

feargale wrote: »

You'd need to be sure you're going to like the German teacher. You'll be rightly snookered if not.

She's quite polarising so I don't know.

spurious

Will you be needing the language for points or do you just need to pass it?

If the teacher is prepared to take you and you have a flair for languages go for it, but don't be giving yourself extra unnecessary stress.

2creator

spurious wrote: »

Will you be needing the language for points or do you just need to pass it?

If the teacher is prepared to take you and you have a flair for languages go for it, but don't be giving yourself extra unnecessary stress.

To be honest it depends how well I take to it. At this point French won't be but there's no telling if German will suit me until I try it

Canard

Just an addition to my last post, this site could help you out a bit. If you're not bad at self-learning (presumably you're not if you want to catch up on a year of German) you should give it a look. There are separate parts too for French and German if the mixing isn't your thing.

2creator

Canard wrote: »

Just an addition to my last post, this site could help you out a bit. If you're not bad at self-learning (presumably you're not if you want to catch up on a year of German) you should give it a look. There are separate parts too for French and German if the mixing isn't your thing.

Thanks a million. Just what I'm looking for.

HansHolzel

With LC languages, the key comparison the student should make is between English & Irish (courses with literature content, meaning more work) and French, German etc (courses with NO literature, meaning less work).

Given your past results in French and German, I agree with Canard that you could do both but I can't see how combined notes would work, unlike with French/Spanish, because French and German are from different language families.

Anyway, in your particular case, your phrase about your French teacher who "buries us in sheets" is the tell-tale sign of the kind of lazy crap that too many students have to endure. The average mountain of sh*t like that leaves the student intimidated and bewildered about what he/she actually needs to know for the exam.

So let me ask you a question or two about what you really do need to know.

In French do you know all the tenses of être, avoir, aller and faire? If you do, that's a good start, you cannot be woeful. (I wouldn't worry too much for now about not knowing something like, say, the word for supermarket trolley (le chariot). If you're stuck for the word for an object, say le truc, like the Irish say 'the yoke' :-)

In German, the key verb list is longer but I'd similarly recommend that you know (inside-out) the six modals, the three auxiliaries (sein, haben, werden) and gehen and machen and sagen for a start.

Concerning the oral exam, even though the French oral consists more of free conversation while the German is more structured, no student needs notes (for either) longer than 5-6 typed A4 pages (14 pt font). This may be the most typical occasion for a teacher to throw a mountain of irrelevant bumph on your desk. I can post oral templates for both for you as attachments on this thread, so you'll know what you should be thinking about.

As for the aural, go over the past exam years until you know them well (the marking schemes on examinations.ie will help you figure them out) because the same words and phrases keep coming up.

Furthermore, to help you develop your ear for each language, you NEED to SEE (i.e. lip-read) people speaking them so go on Youtube and look up, say, Bradley Cooper speaking French and Sandra Bullock speaking German. Music videos (though NOT those with slangy lyrics) can similarly help a lot too, as Canard advised.

Canard

Oh, I should probably clarify a bit about the combined notes. Of course it's easier when the languages are similar, but what I meant was if you learn a new topic it might be helpful to learn it in the other language to not leave yourself short, since your French teacher is bad. I've also found it's helpful when it comes to phrases like, say, "it depends on", because in both French and German that (and many other verbs) don't translate as it + depends + on. It builds up eventually.

I think there was a thread a while ago for foreign music too, which would be worth looking at.

This youtube channel has a few languages on it, but the majority of it is German. It's great for learning, hearing and reading it. This is good for the more technical side of it.

finisher489

Try duolingo.com for German, French. It is amazing.... like some sort of French learning video-game

JDOC1996

You could probably do it, but I really doubt you'd achieve a high grade. There's a lot of work in German.

HansHolzel

All else being equal, an A in Junior Cert German would suggest a good grade in the Leaving is well within the poster's capability, given the limited demands of the Leaving exam, even at higher level. As we all know, no literature is involved.

spurious

HansHolzel wrote: »

All else being equal, an A in Junior Cert German would suggest a good grade in the Leaving is well within the poster's capability, given the limited demands of the Leaving exam, even at higher level. As we all know, no literature is involved.

God be with the days of 'Der Verdacht' - what an experience that was. I read it later in English. The person who selected it for LC must have had some sort of sick tendencies.

HansHolzel

That's a bit ironic. I haven't read it but my favourite play is Der Besuch der Alten Dame and I have read another Bärlach one - Der Richter und sein Henker (OK but somewhat implausible).

Have you ever seen this? Smoke On The Water for intellectuals. Dürrenmatt (the arsonist) likens it to discussing Nero while Rome burns.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJslb1_3p4I

2creator

OK thanks everyone for your input. The amount of motivation I had last night for studying German really surprised me and I'm going to see if I can transfer that energy to French. I've got to retake a test in it coming up and I've got parent teacher meetings next week and I'll see if I put enough work in to make a difference in grades. If still no difference I'm going to reconsider switching to German

vamos!

The German oral is incredibly learning intensive and would be stressful to take up at this stage. The format of the paper is also very different to French-there are still comprehensions and written pieces but the written pieces are totally different. You might pick up Ordinary Level in 1 year with a flair for languages but Higher Level is a different story. French has a higher percentage of higher grades than German. I would stick with French and practice, practice, practice. Use a website to get some French pronunciation into your ear. Get an oral book, prepare answers that suit you and learn them off. If your teacher would correct them it would obviously be best, but if you stick fairly closely to to structures in the book you should be fine to do the work alone. Bien Dit is clear. Accent Francais is nice but of a higher standard. There is also a book called Exprimez- Vous which has lovely French but very little of it is translated. For aural work (don't forget it's 20%) learn lists of vocab. You could print out the answers (marking scheme) for the 2013 and 2012 exams and listen to them over and over again until you can hear the answers. The script is at the end of the marking scheme. The try 2011 and the rest should be easier. For written work learn the phrases from the book- focus on the opinion phrases, phrases for the diary etc and use them to structure everything you write. Keep it simple. Grammar is done nicely on www.francais.ie. You teacher might not mind correcting the worksheets. I teach languages and I don't mind correcting extra work for students who are struggling. If you don't want to ask for extra help get a grammar book that has the answers in the back. Schaums French Grammar can be difficult and there are parts of it that aren't needed for the Leaving Cert but if you see what you need using your own textbook you can just do the appropriate sections in Schaums.

Of course you can do all of this for German too but there isn't as large a selection of books to help, the preparation for the oral is extensive and it is incredibly difficult to understand cases and adjective endings if they have not been explained to you. Because they are so time consuming and there is a grammar section on the exam paper I do them in 5th year. I presume most classes do so you might have missed them putting you at a serious disadvantage. I would stick with French.

HansHolzel

vamos! wrote: »

For aural work (don't forget it's 20%) learn lists of vocab.

Enough said

vamos!

HansHolzel wrote: »

Enough said

Enough said? It's an exam the student will be taking. Quite a lot of the aural is predictable (weather, accidents, crime, statistics). Why would you not learn lists of vocab? It is also a fairly easy way for a student who is struggling to improve their grade. It is easier to learn vocab for the aural than the reading. Many students fail to think of this and cost themselves valuable marks. Sadly, the LC is a form of assessment and some or quite a lot of learning off is required, especially if French is not your best subject. Of course in an ideal world we would all read novels and plays, spend time in the country, use only fun internet programs and interact with native speakers until our language skills improve. This is not very realistic and the OP has 6 months to improve on a subject they son't like or find easy. Learning lists isn't fun but it really will help.

Canard

Yeah, as not ideal as learning vocabulary is, at second level it's kind of the only way to go about it for most people. It's not as bad as learning off sentences or verbs without understanding anyway! It's always best to learn them in some kind of context though (that's why I suggested songs in the language, they're not time-consuming and they're fun), and this site actually does that excellently for German.

HansHolzel

OK, vocab lists (incl. phrases) are not a bad idea at all, though they should be carefully finessed to match typical exam content

BUT

without a sound knowledge of the key verbs in the languages, in tandem with the pronouns, the subject-verb-object sense will often be lost and, even if the student gets the gist what is happening, he/she often won't know who/what is doing it or to whom/what it's being done.

It never ceases to surprise me, just how many teachers don't make sure their students know their key verbs and pronouns like they (should) know their multiplication tables but, lacking familiarity with grammatical terms, even in English, the student is not helped by the curriculum either.

Otherwise, another simple tip for the aural test, unfortunately lost on many teachers, is to make sure students have a sound basic knowledge of the geography of France and Germany, given that place names and natural features come up so much. If the student automatically recognizes a location, it's one less utterance to translate and put in its context.