Ireland exits bailout without a parachute

mike65

News broken on Pat Kennys show a little earlier and now confirmed in the Dail.

20 bn in the reserves, coverage for the next 12 months says Taoiseach.

Idbatterim

I can see a number of advantages to this, just posted the below in after hours!

from rte.ie

Quote:

He described the move as a “significant step” towards economic recovery.
“Never again will our country’s fortunes be sacrificed through greed and short-term gain,” he said.

I wouldnt count on that Enda, we will see if FF ever get back into power!

Quote:

Fianna Fáil leader Micheál Martin said a case should be presented by the Government on why Ireland does not need a precautionary credit line.
He said there was no need for a “stage managed” announcement.

Ba ha ha, this coming from a FF minister! LOL! LOL!

Red_Dwarf

Will the Kids run a muck while the baby sitter nipped out i wonder

micosoft

Red_Dwarf wrote: »

Will the Kids run a muck while the baby sitter nipped out i wonder

Possibly but that's really up to the Irish Electorate who still haven't quite accepted that the reason they "lost sovereignty" (a meaningless construct anyway unless you are North Korea) was their willing to vote for populist but unsustainable policies.

What I'd like to know is where all the doom-mongers are who predicted endless financial on boards as if we'd never recover as we had done from worse recessions in the past. We are not out of the woods by a long distance, but things are slowly getting better.

listermint

micosoft wrote: »

Possibly but that's really up to the Irish Electorate who still haven't quite accepted that the reason they "lost sovereignty" (a meaningless construct anyway unless you are North Korea) was their willing to vote for populist but unsustainable policies.

What I'd like to know is where all the doom-mongers are who predicted endless financial on boards as if we'd never recover as we had done from worse recessions in the past. We are not out of the woods by a long distance, but things are slowly getting better.

For whom?

Its not getting better for most. Its only staying the same for those whom it has least impacted. That includes a sizeable portion of 'the middle class' and the upper middle class.

I think the worst hit here and still continue to be is any of the so called working class. And there is no sign of improvement there. Massaging of jobs figures, no ability to send their kids to college, no jobs to speak of, stuck in a massive personal debt crisis. Emigration.

Did i miss the part where we have dealt with the personal debt problem? or is that still under the carpet.

Max Powers

micosoft wrote: »

Possibly but that's really up to the Irish Electorate who still haven't quite accepted that the reason they "lost sovereignty" (a meaningless construct anyway unless you are North Korea) was their willing to vote for populist but unsustainable policies.

What I'd like to know is where all the doom-mongers are who predicted endless financial on boards as if we'd never recover as we had done from worse recessions in the past. We are not out of the woods by a long distance, but things are slowly getting better.

slowly getting better from some areas of the country but i guess yes on a macroeconomic level slowly getting better but is the debt we have sustainable without a significant amount of growth and probably keeping up the austerity for years to come?
Outside of Dublin, Cork and Galway where there are a lot of high paying tech/chem/pharm jobs is where people need to go to see how Ireland is suffering, towns and cities being decimated as no one has a bean in their pocket to spend in the shops thru lack of employment and those with jobs are taxed so much that the average joe can barely afford a cup of coffee. I do not want to see one bit of self-congratulation from any minister or the media.

Idbatterim

Possibly but that's really up to the Irish Electorate who still haven't quite accepted that the reason they "lost sovereignty" (a meaningless construct anyway unless you are North Korea) was their willing to vote for populist but unsustainable policies.

I agree with that ultimately, but on the other hand, a lot of the electorate would say they wouldnt know very much about economics and policies etc, but the politicians should. Your average Joe, knows very little about economics, trade etc. Id consider myself to have a way better knowledge on this stuff than pretty much anyone else I'd know, I would have a good fundamental grasp of the basics etc, but I'd hardly be some Scofflaw or Permabear...

I honestly think FG are the best chance we have of just maintaining a steady ship and hopefully avoiding the bloody economic roller-coaster as much as possible... Avoiding rampant inflation, eroding our competitiveness...

I do not want to see one bit of self-congratulation from any minister or the media.

I see where you are coming from, but if this was FF who had delivered this, I'm sure there would be a televised address to the nation, bunting out etc! The solutions are simple IF you arent in government...

listermint

Idbatterim wrote: »

I agree with that ultimately, but on the other hand, a lot of the electorate would say they wouldnt know very much about economics and policies etc, but the politicians should. Your average Joe, knows very little about economics, trade etc. Id consider myself to have a way better knowledge on this stuff than pretty much anyone else I'd know, I would have a good fundamental grasp of the basics etc, but I'd hardly be some Scofflaw or Permabear...

I honestly think FG are the best chance we have of just maintaining a steady ship and hopefully avoiding the bloody economic roller-coaster as much as possible... Avoiding rampant inflation, eroding our competitiveness...

I see where you are coming from, but if this was FF who had delivered this, I'm sure there would be a televised address to the nation, bunting out etc! The solutions are simple IF you arent in government...

I think the train of blame has passed. No one cares for that crap anymore we all just want solutions not political one up man ship and nonsense.

There have been plenty of uturns and uuturns with the existing elected government. Your continued diatribe about FF does not alleviate how bad alot of FG policies are. More of the same, none of the difference.

Idbatterim

There have been plenty of uturns and uuturns with the existing elected government. Your continued diatribe about FF does not alleviate how bad alot of FG policies are. More of the same, none of the difference.

Right we will agree to differ on this, FF ruin our reputation, our finances, a lot of our futures and it should just be forgotten about? Of course we should be focusing on the here and now and the future BUT the damage they have inflicted, the lives they have ruined, the scandalous debt they put on the back of the taxpayer, they actually get away too lightly in my opinion...

Which poor FG policies are you referring to?

I have posted it here before, I'm not some FG fanboi, I think they are the best of a poor lot!

touts

Max Powers wrote: »

I do not want to see one bit of self-congratulation from any minister or the media.

Well this must be the 4th or 5th time they have announced that we will exit the bailout and that the day of the announcement is a "momentus day" in Irish history. There is still a month to go so I'd expect another 4 or 5 "momentus days" of the announcement that we plan to exit the bailout. Every FG minister will get his/her chance to announce the good news and every Lab minister will get his/her chance to blame it all on Fianna Fail.

listermint

Idbatterim wrote: »

Right we will agree to differ on this, FF ruin our reputation, our finances, a lot of our futures and it should just be forgotten about? Of course we should be focusing on the here and now and the future BUT the damage they have inflicted, the lives they have ruined, the scandalous debt they put on the back of the taxpayer, they actually get away too lightly in my opinion...

Which poor FG policies are you referring to?

I have posted it here before, I'm not some FG fanboi, I think they are the best best of a poor lot!

Em let me see, going against pretty much their entire manifesto.

Education, Property Tax, Water Charges, Stimulation packages. It would appear you are coming across as a FG apologist rather than the real elephant in the room. They are ALL the same. FG just stood around while all that FF'ering was going on cheering from the side lines rather than being true opposition and exposing the flaws.

Anyway thats off topic to the current thread.

Max Powers

the real shame about the countries handling of the crisis is that we had a real chance to shake up the country for the better, make sweeping for the better changes to the education system, politics, healthcare, financial system safeguards etc. Nothing was really done to the way we do our business so expect another catastrophic mess-up in the future. A whole new approach could have been taken to actually make this the best, most adaptable, efficient little country in the world. What has happened is that the country has become a more expensive place to live with higher taxes and reduced services with little to no efficiencies.

_Kaiser_

listermint wrote: »

I think the train of blame has passed. No one cares for that crap anymore we all just want solutions not political one up man ship and nonsense.

Partly disagree with this. While most of the rest of us may have moved on, Enda trots out the line about how they inherited the mess from FF and uses it for childish point-scoring during the "debates" in the Dail all the time.

There have been plenty of uturns and uuturns with the existing elected government. Your continued diatribe about FF does not alleviate how bad alot of FG policies are. More of the same, none of the difference.

Exactly. FG were elected on a platform of reform and transparency - a new approach to politics if you will.

What we got was the likes of Reilly, Hogan and Shatter to name the most notorious of our current "leaders" - not forgetting Enda himself who no doubt sees this move as step closer to the EU presidency he's been positioning himself for in recent months.

Sheldons Brain

Max Powers wrote: »

the real shame about the countries handling of the crisis is that we had a real chance to shake up the country for the better, make sweeping for the better changes to the education system, politics, healthcare, financial system safeguards etc. Nothing was really done to the way we do our business so expect another catastrophic mess-up in the future. A whole new approach could have been taken to actually make this the best, most adaptable, efficient little country in the world. What has happened is that the country has become a more expensive place to live with higher taxes and reduced services with little to no efficiencies.

Exactly. Expediency all the way, no interest in efficiency as such from the government or the people who elect them.

Idbatterim

I agree with the above, but they are in coalition with the party of waste and wasters, probably the biggest impediment to change! I haven't forgotten why either, I remember it clear as day! in the opinion polls and commentary at the time, people said they would vote Labour to balance things out and keep FG in check! And people are surprised at the situation?!

Floppybits

Max Powers wrote: »

the real shame about the countries handling of the crisis is that we had a real chance to shake up the country for the better, make sweeping for the better changes to the education system, politics, healthcare, financial system safeguards etc. Nothing was really done to the way we do our business so expect another catastrophic mess-up in the future. A whole new approach could have been taken to actually make this the best, most adaptable, efficient little country in the world. What has happened is that the country has become a more expensive place to live with higher taxes and reduced services with little to no efficiencies.

Agree 100% with this. This crisis presented the country with a great chance to change the way we do things and our politicians missed the chance. All that does for me is how incompetent most our politicians are no matter their party or beliefs. Such a shame.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

token56

The reality of the situation is after all the spending cuts that have been made and the increased taxes, not to mention the bailing out of the banks, we are now able to just about balance our books within the guidelines we have been set.

But not a whole lot has changed in my opinion. Future budgets will still be difficult and still be scrutinized by our European partners. Areas of the public sector which needed the biggest levels of reform are still the most troubled, health, social welfare and education. Unemployment is still unacceptably high and i really cant see that changing. The government simply doesn't have the funds needed to help create the level of jobs that are required in this country. We are left depending on mostly foreign investment to create jobs which at present is also not enough. The major reforms that were required in so many other parts of the country have also not taken place, i.e. The financial sector.

Don't get me wrong things have improved from a purely fiscal point of view for the government but this does not mean a fiscal improvement for the average person, quite the opposite. So yes its easy and true for the government to say they are in a better position than they were but we as citizens are not in my opinion and I don't see that changing any time soon.

Idbatterim

just listening to the six one now! Micheal Martin just said "my fundamental view is that the government has put political strategy over what is right for the country" ha ha yeah, where have we seen that before :rolleyes: Listening to FF lecture about responsibility and posturing would be akin to listen Hitler lecturing about human rights!

Sand

Idbatterim wrote: »

Quote:

"Fianna Fáil leader Micheál Martin said a case should be presented by the Government on why Ireland does not need a precautionary credit line.
He said there was no need for a “stage managed” announcement."

Ba ha ha, this coming from a FF minister! LOL! LOL!

In fairness, the message is valid - just a shame about the messenger. The government ought to be able to present a case where it demonstrates how it evaluated the various options, and settled on the chosen policy as the best one. That our policymaking is still made on the hoof with no real explanation beyond a press release shows how little Ireland has changed since the disastrous night of the guarantee where policymaking was again made on the hoof, and still with no real explanation of what the options were and how they were evaluated.

There has been practically no improvement in how we make policy, (indeed FG has proven even worse than Greena Fail in abusing the weakness of the Dail) so we cant expect much improvement in the policies made regardless of who is in power.

The_Honeybadger

Idbatterim wrote: »

Right we will agree to differ on this, FF ruin our reputation, our finances, a lot of our futures and it should just be forgotten about? Of course we should be focusing on the here and now and the future BUT the damage they have inflicted, the lives they have ruined, the scandalous debt they put on the back of the taxpayer, they actually get away too lightly in my opinion...

Which poor FG policies are you referring to?

I have posted it here before, I'm not some FG fanboi, I think they are the best of a poor lot!

Fine Gael's main criticism of ff throughout the boom was that Bertie was not spending enough. If they had been in power we would have had the exact same result, timing and a leader that was not viewed as a credible Taoiseach kept them in opposition. That was the difference between the parties at the time.

I think since they have gotten in they have done a reasonable job, probably as good as anybody could have done. Whoever got in was going to be unpopular due to our circumstances. I don't agree with all their policies and would like to have seen more reform in the big spending departments but they inherited a holy mess that was always going to take time to sort out.

Silentcorner

Who would we prefer to govern our finances? The troika or Fg/Ff/Lab?

I'd take the troika...in fact I'd give them more power over us if it was possible... I'd even pay them the same money we pay our ministers (which would be a massive pay increase for the troika officials I'd imagine)...I'd even tolerate some expenses abuse although I suspect it wouldn't be an issue...

We don't have a democracy, at least the one we have is completely dysfunctional...they know it but they ain't changing it...patriots they ain't...

ardmacha

Did you actually expect efficiencies and better services? Heh. Maybe you thought we would get something in return for the Croke Park Agreement, just like we got so much in return for the seven social partnership agreements dating back to 1987.

Croke Park did lead to efficiencies, as services has been maintained with significantly less staff. The usual ranting about unions is misplaced in this context as many individuals in the front line have worked hard to keep the show on the road and unions have not been an obstacle to this. This real problem is management, who have proved unable to reimagine services to be more efficient rather than just doing more of the same (badly organised) thing. At a time when unions would have been willing to go along with change, management/government hasn't had the competance to propose any.

mickeyk wrote:

I think since they have gotten in they have done a reasonable job, probably as good as anybody could have done. Whoever got in was going to be unpopular due to our circumstances. I don't agree with all their policies and would like to have seen more reform in the big spending departments but they inherited a holy mess that was always going to take time to sort out

This is being too easily pleased. Of course changes may have taken some time, but if the present shower were competant they would at least have proposed a road map for this. No model of how the country should operate in the long term has emerged. What can we afford and what can we not afford in a long term stable situation?

Sand wrote:

That our policymaking is still made on the hoof with no real explanation beyond a press release shows how little Ireland has changed since the disastrous night of the guarantee where policymaking was again made on the hoof, and still with no real explanation of what the options were and how they were evaluated.

Exactly. If newer policy evaluation policies had been introduced then the present lot would have done the state some service. Instead there is a complete refusal to accept any need for evaluation, and the mob doesn't see anything wrong with this.

lucky john

Fg/lab were given a mandate by the voters to be everything they believed ff were not. They had the opportunity of a lifetime to be what they promised as the day to day running the country was been handled by the imf/eu . They promised openness, honesty, reform and most of all a change from normal politics. While no one can be happy where the country is financially itwill over time improve. However, the way politics is done hasn't changed one bit, if anything its worse, to the point of the government trying to gag the media and opposition(who ever they would be) from accessing information that should be public knowledge.

For the last almost 3 years the present government has (daily) blamed ff for all our woes and the troika for all their decision. Apart from the broken promises I mentioned already we actually don't really know what fg/lab policy really is. So from next January it will be a case of "will the real fg/lab please stant up".

jonsnow

Seems a bit reckless to me. Noonans main arguments seems to be that now is a good time to go to the money markets while they are relatively stable and that this might not be the case in November 2015. However taking that logic you could also argue that given the strong hand we currently hold (compared to our previous position) that this would be an ideal time to negotiate a good deal for the stop gap money. Not having this parachute means that if there is some more upset we are once again in a terrible negotiating position and will have to accept whatever terms are on offer from the troika at that time (again). At least now we could negotiate with the credible option of turning it down.

I believe that the real reason for this reckless decision is threefold. Firstly the government knows that its popularity is fraying badly and that it has achieved few little tangible results since being elected. Of all its aims getting out from under the troika has always been its primary goal and once they could achieve this they did even if it is slightly premature. They see this as a genuine achievement to crow about and to some extent it is . But regaining sovereignty has always held more allure for our political class than for the man on the street who ultimately isn't all that bothered by the loss of it on the first place. I for one wish the troika could stick around for another while.

Secondly the government are glad to have the troika out from over them with their annoying targets, efficiencies and reforms. Even with all the so called troika pressure we are only today getting round to looking at whether people deserve a medical card or not based on their income. This sort of austerity drive doesn't go down well with an irish electorate however rational and necessary it may be and this government (especially labour) is about done with austerity and reform.

Thirdly on a basic ego level I am sure that they are sick of having to meet with all these foreign bureaucrats who check their homework and demand explanations when its not done. They want to go back to a situation where there is no real accountability or results expected Irish style.

jonsnow

Max Powers wrote: »

the real shame about the countries handling of the crisis is that we had a real chance to shake up the country for the better, make sweeping for the better changes to the education system, politics, healthcare, financial system safeguards etc. Nothing was really done to the way we do our business so expect another catastrophic mess-up in the future. A whole new approach could have been taken to actually make this the best, most adaptable, efficient little country in the world. What has happened is that the country has become a more expensive place to live with higher taxes and reduced services with little to no efficiencies.

We never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity or waste a crisis. Every irish crisis is really just about maintaining the status quo of the majority and the connected by jettisoning the most vulnerable. Is there any meaningful difference in how we run the country now or how it was run in the 1970s, 1980s, 00s. I don't think we ever change our approach to how we run our countries institutions (even the senate for gods sake). Canada used its economic crisis of the early 1990s to streamline and improve its healthcare system. Finland used its economic crisis to streamline and improve its education system.

What area of irish life have we modernised or improved in the half a decade since the crisis erupted.Our legal systems capacity to deal with white collar crime, our financial regulatory system, our political system, our health system, our education system. In some cases their have been minor incremental improvements (which probably would have happened anyway) and in others they have actually got worse. We will make a similar policy balls up in the next 20 or so years which will result in another national emergency beause we have't changed the way we approach any major policy decisions.

Rightwing

Max Powers wrote: »

the real shame about the countries handling of the crisis is that we had a real chance to shake up the country for the better, make sweeping for the better changes to the education system, politics, healthcare, financial system safeguards etc. Nothing was really done to the way we do our business so expect another catastrophic mess-up in the future. A whole new approach could have been taken to actually make this the best, most adaptable, efficient little country in the world. What has happened is that the country has become a more expensive place to live with higher taxes and reduced services with little to no efficiencies.

We hadn't

It couldn't.

You won't find any silver bullet solutions in Greece/Portugal/Spain either.

If it takes years to create a mess, it will take years to fix it.

Rightwing

Sand wrote: »

In fairness, the message is valid - just a shame about the messenger. The government ought to be able to present a case where it demonstrates how it evaluated the various options, and settled on the chosen policy as the best one. That our policymaking is still made on the hoof with no real explanation beyond a press release shows how little Ireland has changed since the disastrous night of the guarantee where policymaking was again made on the hoof, and still with no real explanation of what the options were and how they were evaluated.

There has been practically no improvement in how we make policy, (indeed FG has proven even worse than Greena Fail in abusing the weakness of the Dail) so we cant expect much improvement in the policies made regardless of who is in power.

I think the Govt have got this absolutely spot on. We need to reduce our deficit and need for borrowing asap. Martin the idiot would probably like access to €100bln which he'd blow in a year.

This is also a good dvelopment:

SMALL businesses are to get access to loans from Germany at half the rate of interest being charged in Ireland under a plan approved by Angela Merkel.
The German chancellor has instructed her state investment bank to work closely with the Irish authorities to improve funding for the economy, including access to finance for small and medium businesses.
But loans may also be made available for investment, infrastructure and larger companies.
The development is intended to result in Irish companies borrowing money at a cheaper interest rate than the rate offered them by Irish banks.

micosoft

ardmacha wrote: »

This is being too easily pleased. Of course changes may have taken some time, but if the present shower were competant they would at least have proposed a road map for this. No model of how the country should operate in the long term has emerged. What can we afford and what can we not afford in a long term stable situation?

But here's the problem in thinking that of many of the posters here have. This idea that what we are in the midst of for policy makers is a straightforward set of choices and there's your roadmap. Most of the problems that Government grapple with are not simplex Yes/No decisions or even Better/Worse decisions. They are dozens of interrelated decisions whose impact which might be better today but worse tomorrow and variables that the Government has very little influence on (such as the markets). These are called wicked problems because that's what they are - extremely complex problems whose variables are changing all the time. Anybody saying they have a clear roadmap is disingenuous or does not have the capacity to grasp the problem set. Broad strokes perhaps (we want to get out of the troika) but not this straightforward roadmap prosperity.

Not specific to you Ardmacha but the number of posters who think that having a decisive single plan is the sign of a good politician (or their own wisdom). It's not - it shows that they clearly don't understand the problem.

Sheldons Brain

These are called wicked problems because that's what they are - extremely complex problems whose variables are changing all the time.

There are aspects of the problem that are changing all the time. However, the definition of a wicked problem linked above suggests that every wicked problem is essentially novel and unique. This is not the case, many of Ireland's problems are those faced by other countries currently or in the past, yet we persist in ignoring these examples and treating everything as "unique". Even tough problems like the health service can be informed by other countries who run a superior health service on similar resources.

micosoft

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

There are aspects of the problem that are changing all the time. However, the definition of a wicked problem linked above suggests that every wicked problem is essentially novel and unique. This is not the case, many of Ireland's problems are those faced by other countries currently or in the past, yet we persist in ignoring these examples and treating everything as "unique". Even tough problems like the health service can be informed by other countries who run a superior health service on similar resources.

Firstly that's one element of a wicked problem. And I think you'll find all of these countries face different challenges to Ireland and I find it hard to believe you think that in totality we have the same or even close to the same problems as Spain, Italy or indeed any other country in the world that faces issues from the current crisis. They have different demographics, industries, resources, politics etc etc etc. If you accept that the problems are different you have to accept the solution may well be different as well. Again, only one aspect of wicked problems.

Second there are the other elements of wicked problems - other examples may work in their time and context but are not applicable because the variables have changed.

As Keynes once said - when the facts change I change my opinion, what do you do sir? when asked why he'd changed his approach to economic development.

I'm not excusing obvious policy failures but too many people jump on the bandwagon (especially the opposition) of expecting perfect knowledge and foresight by any government. The reality is that the best policy for out state is to "muddle" it's way of the situation we are in. Anyone claiming the quick fix is telling either doesn't understand the problem.

Sheldons Brain

I accept that the totality of the present crisis is a tough problem, but parts of it can be dealt with leaving a smaller core challenge. But the reality is that the Irish State has "muddled through" on routine problems that should be the subject of systematic planning. There are few examples of evaluation criteria being established and only then looking at the range of options involved, instead all stages of decision making are conflated together and surrounded by irrelevancies, making what are structured problems in other places wicked problems here. This has to change, but there is no sign of the present government aspiring to higher standards in this regard.

Good loser

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

I accept that the totality of the present crisis is a tough problem, but parts of it can be dealt with leaving a smaller core challenge. But the reality is that the Irish State has "muddled through" on routine problems that should be the subject of systematic planning. There are few examples of evaluation criteria being established and only then looking at the range of options involved, instead all stages of decision making are conflated together and surrounded by irrelevancies, making what are structured problems in other places wicked problems here. This has to change, but there is no sign of the present government aspiring to higher standards in this regard.

For instance it seems to me all the recommendations of the Fiscal Council have been ignored to date by the present Govt.

ezra_pound

Good loser wrote: »

For instance it seems to me all the recommendations of the Fiscal Council have been ignored to date by the present Govt.

What recommendations? Where are they contained. The fiscal council seems happy with the government in reports I have seen and has essentially backtracked on recommendations previously made which the government essentially made the right call on.

jonsnow

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

I accept that the totality of the present crisis is a tough problem, but parts of it can be dealt with leaving a smaller core challenge. But the reality is that the Irish State has "muddled through" on routine problems that should be the subject of systematic planning. There are few examples of evaluation criteria being established and only then looking at the range of options involved, instead all stages of decision making are conflated together and surrounded by irrelevancies, making what are structured problems in other places wicked problems here. This has to change, but there is no sign of the present government aspiring to higher standards in this regard.

Indeed. I was listening to Pat Kenny when they said that rumours were going around that a decision was being made in relation to Ireland exiting the bailout as Simon Coveney had just told a Dail Committee that he had to leave early for an emergency cabinet meeting. I remember thinking "I bet they (the EMC) just told him 30 mins ago about this". It was in this weekends SINDO that this was indeed the case. It reminded me of the ludicrous nature of lenihan and cowen ringing the rest of the cabinet to get their sleepy bewildered approval to nationalise the banks. Adhering to the letter of the law in relation to cabinet approval but in any practical sense making it a complete joke.

Nationalising the banks was a decision which was made by a tiny cabal of politicians, senior civil servants and a lawyer. We have now decided to exit the bailout on the sayso of a four man EMC which has bypassed the cabinet. It is this secretive concentrating of power in a tiny elites hands which seems ingrained in the irish political system and which has historically led to catastrophic and reckless results as the decision makers are locked into an exclusive feedback loop with no outside perspective or views intruding. It appears that we have learned nothing.

gaius c

Max Powers wrote: »

the real shame about the countries handling of the crisis is that we had a real chance to shake up the country for the better, make sweeping for the better changes to the education system, politics, healthcare, financial system safeguards etc. Nothing was really done to the way we do our business so expect another catastrophic mess-up in the future. A whole new approach could have been taken to actually make this the best, most adaptable, efficient little country in the world. What has happened is that the country has become a more expensive place to live with higher taxes and reduced services with little to no efficiencies.

And it's going to bite us on the bum as we witness the slow death of FDI in Ireland. I'm in pharma and already, companies are struggling to get top quality expats to move here because they get so little for their money. We've kept everything that was wrong with this country and made our expensive/poor value reputation even worse.

[Jackass]

Max Powers wrote: »

the real shame about the countries handling of the crisis is that we had a real chance to shake up the country for the better, make sweeping for the better changes to the education system, politics, healthcare, financial system safeguards etc. Nothing was really done to the way we do our business so expect another catastrophic mess-up in the future. A whole new approach could have been taken to actually make this the best, most adaptable, efficient little country in the world. What has happened is that the country has become a more expensive place to live with higher taxes and reduced services with little to no efficiencies.

This!

Making the best of a bad situation, this was the best opportunity to stream line a public service that is over unionized (Well done to Jim Larkin on the great progress he helped achieve, but would he support a monopolistic bus service hemerging hundreds of millions a year with a fleet that has increased 30%+ in the last 6 or 7 years, 10 times the increase in passenger numbers and having drivers walk out and unwilling to take pay cuts?). We needed to drastically cut employment numbers in the public sector with the economic realities being the perfect foil.

We also had the opportunity to correct service that is over paid (thanks to Berties vote purchasing policies - Here public administrators, have the same pay as the banking administrators who are on unsustainable wages as it is as they are being funded by an overcooked economy waiting to explode) and those same workers now unwilling to come back to reality with the rest of the country - getting the same when "times are good" but unwilling to get the same when times are bad.

We had the opportunity for great infrastructure growth with the backing of the EU. See the United States after the great depression. They invested in infrastructure creating employment in the short term and projects with long term benefits - an example being the Hoover dam. It came in ahead of schedule, under budget, employed tens of thousands of people, it has since been one of the biggest energy resources of the state of California for almost 100 years and given its remote location and the magnitude of workers, it turned a small town of a few thousand residents (called Las Vegas) into one of the largest tourist attractions in the country as a direct impact of the project. Expansionary measures work, if only we could conceive of a project like this.

We also had the opportunity to completely reform corporate legislation in this country. My biggest disappointment with this Government is their complete lack of interest in fixing the legislative flaws that have allowed so many walk away with millions and massive pensions for their greed and incompetence. Not least the seeming disinterest in pursuing those same people with any existing laws.

We have missed the opportunity to reform the welfare system also, through our inability to tackle job creation and to cut benefits for those who don't work. Our benefit costs are through the roof and were the first thing along with civil service wages and employment numbers that the IMF insisted we must address. Neither have been though. But the people who's jobs have been saved by not willing to do this are the same people who are complaining about the extra taxes they have to pay which were the alternative measure to putting them in the dole queue.

I think a massive barrier to change has been the public perception though. An unwillingness to accept reality. Those with jobs are unwilling to take pay cuts and unwilling to pay tax. Particularly public funded jobs, just a complete disgust and militant resistance to any sort of adjustment to reality.

Also with welfare and health systems, all and any cuts have been treated as scandalous. Front line service jobs such as Gadai, nursing, teachers, fire fighters, doctors etc. have suffered disproportionately compared to public admin workers. These types of work should be separated as "essential" and "non-essential" and there should be a lot less "non-essential" employees and much better pay conditions for "essential".

But everybody demands the economy be fixed but nobody was willing to accept any of the measures to do so.

I always maintained and will continue to maintain that the Irish electorate are particularly stupid, more so than most countries when it comes to picking a Government, as the vast majority of voters base their decision on a treaty dispute from almost 100 years ago on who should be in Government today.

Also history has helped romanticize the FF stance of "No surrender, don't give up the 6 counties", lest we forget that the Irish people of the day who were living under British rule and were sick of the occupation and living standards voted to accept it as a way to where we are now. It's very easy to have a different opinion when you didn't live it.

But whilst this Government have done a mediocre job, I have full faith in the electorate to return to their tribal routes and elect FF back to Government now that we have returned to a position where growth is possible and let FF enjoy the delay in benefits from policies set out at this time which wont realise benefit for a few years, credit them with that success, then wait for the delay of their mismanagement of the economy to kick in after 6 or 7 years, then call on FG / Labour to fix it again and blame them for all the cuts and taxes required to do so and on and on the cycle goes, which we have gone through this cycle for at least the last 30 or 40 years, before that was the neo-catholic FF dictatorship without the consideration of having any opposition or another party to come in and fix the economy.

Rightwing

[Jackass] wrote: »

This!

Making the best of a bad situation, this was the best opportunity to stream line a public service that is over unionized (Well done to Jim Larkin on the great progress he helped achieve, but would he support a monopolistic bus service hemerging hundreds of millions a year with a fleet that has increased 30%+ in the last 6 or 7 years, 10 times the increase in passenger numbers and having drivers walk out and unwilling to take pay cuts?). We needed to drastically cut employment numbers in the public sector with the economic realities being the perfect foil.

We also had the opportunity to correct service that is over paid (thanks to Berties vote purchasing policies - Here public administrators, have the same pay as the banking administrators who are on unsustainable wages as it is as they are being funded by an overcooked economy waiting to explode) and those same workers now unwilling to come back to reality with the rest of the country - getting the same when "times are good" but unwilling to get the same when times are bad.

We had the opportunity for great infrastructure growth with the backing of the EU. See the United States after the great depression. They invested in infrastructure creating employment in the short term and projects with long term benefits - an example being the Hoover dam. It came in ahead of schedule, under budget, employed tens of thousands of people, it has since been one of the biggest energy resources of the state of California for almost 100 years and given its remote location and the magnitude of workers, it turned a small town of a few thousand residents (called Las Vegas) into one of the largest tourist attractions in the country as a direct impact of the project. Expansionary measures work, if only we could conceive of a project like this.

We also had the opportunity to completely reform corporate legislation in this country. My biggest disappointment with this Government is their complete lack of interest in fixing the legislative flaws that have allowed so many walk away with millions and massive pensions for their greed and incompetence. Not least the seeming disinterest in pursuing those same people with any existing laws.

We have missed the opportunity to reform the welfare system also, through our inability to tackle job creation and to cut benefits for those who don't work. Our benefit costs are through the roof and were the first thing along with civil service wages and employment numbers that the IMF insisted we must address. Neither have been though. But the people who's jobs have been saved by not willing to do this are the same people who are complaining about the extra taxes they have to pay which were the alternative measure to putting them in the dole queue.

I think a massive barrier to change has been the public perception though. An unwillingness to accept reality. Those with jobs are unwilling to take pay cuts and unwilling to pay tax. Particularly public funded jobs, just a complete disgust and militant resistance to any sort of adjustment to reality.

Also with welfare and health systems, all and any cuts have been treated as scandalous. Front line service jobs such as Gadai, nursing, teachers, fire fighters, doctors etc. have suffered disproportionately compared to public admin workers. These types of work should be separated as "essential" and "non-essential" and there should be a lot less "non-essential" employees and much better pay conditions for "essential".

But everybody demands the economy be fixed but nobody was willing to accept any of the measures to do so.

I always maintained and will continue to maintain that the Irish electorate are particularly stupid, more so than most countries when it comes to picking a Government, as the vast majority of voters base their decision on a treaty dispute from almost 100 years ago on who should be in Government today.

Also history has helped romanticize the FF stance of "No surrender, don't give up the 6 counties", lest we forget that the Irish people of the day who were living under British rule and were sick of the occupation and living standards voted to accept it as a way to where we are now. It's very easy to have a different opinion when you didn't live it.

But whilst this Government have done a mediocre job, I have full faith in the electorate to return to their tribal routes and elect FF back to Government now that we have returned to a position where growth is possible and let FF enjoy the delay in benefits from policies set out at this time which wont realise benefit for a few years, credit them with that success, then wait for the delay of their mismanagement of the economy to kick in after 6 or 7 years, then call on FG / Labour to fix it again and blame them for all the cuts and taxes required to do so and on and on the cycle goes, which we have gone through this cycle for at least the last 30 or 40 years, before that was the neo-catholic FF dictatorship without the consideration of having any opposition or another party to come in and fix the economy.

Those opportunities existed only on paper. No Government could implement those changes....unfortunately.

Good loser

ezra_pound wrote: »

What recommendations? Where are they contained. The fiscal council seems happy with the government in reports I have seen and has essentially backtracked on recommendations previously made which the government essentially made the right call on.

The Fiscal Council advocated a €3.1 bn adjustment for this year's budget. Did you not know that?

[Jackass]

Rightwing wrote: »

Those opportunities existed only on paper. No Government could implement those changes....unfortunately.

It's true, it would be absolute political suicide to do what's needed to be done, but in theory it could be done within a term but unfortunately the next people in would reverse much of the good work.

It makes you wonder if perhaps a new political model is required. The whole capitalist democracy doesn't seem to. Not that a revolution in the morning would be much good, as I have no idea about a system that could be better.