Possible disqualification of Dublin Marathon Champ

Runfaster

Anyone hear bout Maria McCambridge Dublin Marathon winner being investigated for having her husband pace her in the Marathon and may be disqualified ...splits/pic/video evidence are being considered.

"Pacing or assistance of competitors in any form is not permitted and may lead to disqualification.
Pacing is defined as someone running, cycling or use of any technical device alongside another competitor, and is not allowed.
Pacing by persons not participating in the race shall be considered assistance.
Dublin Marathon & Athletics Ireland has appointed referees and a number of judges (clearly identified) to enforce the rules of competition. The judges will report any infringements to the referees who have the power and may disqualify any athletes found in contrary of the rules.
Although men and women often run together, technically speaking they are running separate races. A man who is entered in the men’s race but then obviously and intentionally runs with a woman, in order to give her an advantage, is therefore guilty of contravening the pacing rule.
Pacing of an athlete by a runner in a different category (e.g. pacing of a competitor in the female or veteran category by an entrant in the open male category) is deemed to be assistance and may render both the paced and pacing runner liable to disqualification
A decision on whether an athlete was excessively helped or whether assistance given altered the result of the race, rests initially with the referee who can disqualify an athlete. The outcome of which can be appealed to the Jury of Appeal, which is made up of the Race Director, Deputy Race Director and nominated AAI Official. They may at their discretion, reverse or alter positions or uphold the disqualification of an athlete. Such action will usually follow an objection or a report from appointed judges."


Anyone hear anything on this??

RacoonQueen

Gary was participating in the race. It would mean Sean and Joe would also be DQ'd.

Sounds like someone is either sh*t stirring or someone who finished behind Maria is being bitter.

Edit: Gary and Maria run together all the time in races. Do they just run at the same pace?

nerraw1111

Sounds like BS/**** stirring given the two men had pacers.

RacoonQueen

nerraw1111 wrote: »

Sounds like BS/**** stirring given the two men had pacers.

Thought that too myself, but then realised it's the woman being paced by a man think. Men can be pace by men but women being paced by men is a whole different story (bullsh*t considering she beat thousands of them...) remember Paula Radcliffe in similar situation few years ago when men were pacing women in big marathons?

Krusty_Clown

Self-motivated, damaging grip'ism, by a three-post warrior.
Well done Runfaster. Sniping from anonymity.

secman

Are there rules on pacing in Dublin City marathon ?

Killerz

I paced a number of ladies in the Dublin Marathon.... Will they be DQ'd too? :P

Kurt Godel

Killerz wrote: »

I paced a number of ladies in the Dublin Marathon.... Will they be DQ'd too? :P

Pacing anyone running for fun or recreation isn't an issue.

Pacing someone who is racing in the National Championships is an issue- it's considered outside assistance. See this AI directive for details.

Killerz

Ah I had my tongue planted firmly within my cheek.

ASIMON0V

I was delighted to see Maria win; but I did wonder about it a little at the time. I would hate to see anything happen to the result though - it would really ruin what was a very good marathon from a PR point of view.

RacoonQueen

I've no affiliation to Maria, but seriously, is he not like the same pace as her anyway? A while since he's run a 2:2x marathon. His last DCM in 2008 was a 2:31 (wee bit slower than his PB) so would be perfectly safe to assume that the time he ran in DCM this year was the limit of his current abilites. They do a lot of training and racing together and did pretty similar times in Eco run this year (and last year) so probably pretty similar pace wise?

Lots of women out there getting 'paced' by men. I see no issue and would hope if I finished 2nd/3rd/4th because of her win I would have the same attitude.

Lots of men out there were getting paced by the top women... :P

Krusty_Clown

Firstly, why is the focus on Maria, when the same argument could be raised in relation to the top male field? The two runners completed the race and as such were full and complete participants. I'm not sure if the same can be said of the leading male field (vested interest of the original poster).

Secondly, I ran the first 18 miles of the race with another runner and we were most certainly not pacing each other. As RQ pointed out, similarly paced runners run in groups.

Thirdly, those rules relate to the national marathon championships, not the Dublin marathon. The national marathon championships are run as a 'race within a race', and as such rules are irrelevant to the standings of the Dublin marathon. Doesn't affect the original poster's point - just clarifying.

Finally, if you are going to scrutinize one, you must scrutinize all. Unless the ladies race is started as a separate race, there is not a single female participant in the race who did not at some point run with a male. Disqualify them all. That gets my vote.

RayCun

McCambridge stopped to use a toilet at mile 18, didn't she?
If Crossan waited outside for her and ran on with her, that would be pacing her. Otherwise they're just two runners of a similar standard running near each other.

Kurt Godel

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Firstly, why is the focus on Maria, when the same argument could be raised in relation to the top male field? The two runners completed the race and as such were full and complete participants. I'm not sure if the same can be said of the leading male field (vested interest of the original poster).

Secondly, I ran the first 18 miles of the race with another runner and we were most certainly not pacing each other. As RQ pointed out, similarly paced runners run in groups.

Thirdly, those rules relate to the national marathon championships, not the Dublin marathon. The national marathon championships are run as a 'race within a race', and as such rules are irrelevant to the standings of the Dublin marathon. Doesn't affect the original poster's point - just clarifying.

Finally, if you are going to scrutinize one, you must scrutinize all. Unless the ladies race is started as a separate race, there is not a single female participant in the race who did not at some point run with a male. Disqualify them all. That gets my vote.

"A man who is entered in the men’s race but then obviously and intentionally runs with a woman, in order to give her an advantage, is therefore guilty of contravening the pacing rule." Thats pretty clear, and any would-be contenders in the WC, would have been made aware of that ruling. If you are a man, being paced by another man, that's fine. If you are a woman, who happens to be running alongside a man, that's fine. If there is a prior intent for a woman to be paced by a man, that's where the ruling applies.

Krusty_Clown

Kurt Godel wrote: »

"A man who is entered in the men’s race but then obviously and intentionally runs with a woman, in order to give her an advantage, is therefore guilty of contravening the pacing rule." Thats pretty clear, and any would-be contenders in the WC, would have been made aware of that ruling. If you are a man, being paced by another man, that's fine. If you are a woman, who happens to be running alongside a man, that's fine. If there is a prior intent for a woman to be paced by a man, that's where the ruling applies.

Those are certainly the words strung together in a sentence, written on a page. But why delineate between males pacing females, females pacing males, and same gender pacing? How is this different to Killerz pacing a group of women? How does one prove prior intent? How does one prove that other females in the same competition were not paced by males?

Kurt Godel

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Those are certainly the words strung together in a sentence, written on a page. But why delineate between males pacing females, females pacing males, and same gender pacing? How is this different to Killerz pacing a group of women? How does one prove prior intent? How does one prove that other females in the same competition were not paced by males?

I've no axe to grind one way or the other, I'm just pointing out the rules as highlighted by athletics Ireland (others asked for clarity on pacing rules). You're welcome to your point of view, but its a bit facetious to dismiss what I posted as "words strung together in a sentence". All the elite (male and female) athletes would have been made aware of the rules of the race they entered, and agreed to abide by them.

*Edit* This RW article is a very good read on the difference between what is acceptable in pacing marathons (same-race males pacing same-race males), and what is not (males pacing different-race females)

likestosmile

The Dublin city marathon legitimately provide pacers for 3hr,3.15,3.30,4hrs etc. If a female runner uses lets say the 3hr pacer and places in the top 10 in the national championship, are you saying this female would be disq? If so, the aai need to seriously look either A. It's pacing rule or b. Consider not incorporating the national marathon within the Dublin city marathon. Personally I would not like to see the later happen. Maria has and conitinues to be a great ambassador for Irish middle-long distance athletics. I am a female middle-long distance athlete who would unquestionable boycott any further aai events if Maria was disq for reasons outlined here as I too would be guilty of using a legitimate male pacer provided by the race organisers.

Kurt Godel

likestosmile wrote: »

The Dublin city marathon legitimately provide pacers for 3hr,3.15,3.30,4hrs etc. If a female runner uses lets say the 3hr pacer and places in the top 10 in the national championship, are you saying this female would be disq? If so, the aai need to seriously look either A. It's pacing rule or b. Consider not incorporating the national marathon within the Dublin city marathon. Personally I would not like to see the later happen. Maria has and conitinues to be a great ambassador for Irish middle-long distance athletics. I am a female middle-long distance athlete who would unquestionable boycott any further aai events if Maria was disq for reasons outlined here as I too would be guilty of using a legitimate male pacer provided by the race organisers.

I'm not saying a female placing top 10 in the marathon NC, using a 3:00 hour pacer, would be disqualified (its got bugger all to do with me, I'm just linking to rules). IMO I'd imagine at that stage (using a 3:00 hour pacer) its a moot point (although if you want you can point to AG'ers, or club championships, at that sort of time). Ditto top 20, or top 100, or top 1000. But there are clear rules when it comes to the NC's, and rules matter more when medals are being determined (again, I'm only linking to posted AI rules, and its just my layman's opinion, which is worth as much as anyone else's on this open internet forum).

eliwallach

Me too I am delighted for MMcC, but leaving personalities aside, Kurt there is making valid points.

average_runner

RayCun wrote: »

McCambridge stopped to use a toilet at mile 18, didn't she?
If Crossan waited outside for her and ran on with her, that would be pacing her. Otherwise they're just two runners of a similar standard running near each other.

Depends also if he slowed down for her and then ran the remaining of the race at a faster pace that his slow down pace.

Krusty_Clown

For me, the uncertainty is whether pacing in the national championships is taboo for all (which would be my interpretation of the posted rules) or just for females paced my males, which is Kurt's position. Given that it's the AAI, I reckon we're unlikely to ever get an official ruling. It would be nice if we all knew the official position by the time we entered the national champs next year.

theboyblunder

There are some interesting points being made on this thread. However, id love to see it closed and deleted because the way it was started doesnt sit well with me.

Where is the OP? Why isnt (s)he participating? As KC says, 3 post wonder since 2010. It stinks.

Ive no connection to MMcC, and dont get the pacing rule. How is it an advantage relative to men-men? Was going to type more, but ive just realised thats the objective of the rather distasteful cowardly first post, to get us talking and cast doubt on the victory (at best).

To the OP: for shame!

Chivito550

This is stupid. What about the rake of women inside the top 20 overall, at the 2:50 to 3:10 level who were no doubt running with men for most, if not all of the way? If MMC gets DQ'ed then the others who have done the exact same thing move up one place in the elite standings. How is this fair? DQ her then you must DQ the rest!

TRR

There was a pacing issue in the womens national champs 3-4 years ago and the course referee sorted it out during the race. If it was an issue course referee would have DQd by now. This is just someone stirring.

RacoonQueen

Would it be legal for Maria to pace run at sub 2:50 or sub 3 pace alongside a male? She'd be jogging but would be 'pacing' someone of the opposite sex.

Or is it only the other way around when it's against the rules?

TRR

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Would it be legal for Maria to pace run at sub 2:50 or sub 3 pace alongside a male? She'd be jogging but would be 'pacing' someone of the opposite sex.

Or is it only the other way around when it's against the rules?

Not sure but the way the rules are written it is assumed men would be pacing women. It's the reason Paula Radcliffes 2.15 isn't recognised as a world record but her 2.17 is.

ger664

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Would it be legal for Maria to pace run at sub 2:50 or sub 3 pace alongside a male? She'd be jogging but would be 'pacing' someone of the opposite sex.

Or is it only the other way around when it's against the rules?

This really hits the nail on the head. Its alright for the men to get paced but wrong when a female paces herself of a male runner.

belcarra

Does anyone actually know if they ran together for much of the race?
I was watching them complete their 1st lap in the EcoRun 20 miler and Gary was about 30m ahead of Maria. Similar gap for remainder of race whenever I met them on the course. So, they are close to each others pace but you could not say he was pacing her. He was with other guys and she was generally on her own.

Mountain out of a molehill!

RayCun

The rules quoted above say
"Pacing of an athlete by a runner in a different category"
So it's not just women paced by men, if McCambridge or Hehir paced me around that would also be against the rules.

robinph

<mod>It's an interesting discussion on what is and what isn't pacing, but unless the OP can answer their own question of "Anyone hear anything on this??" and tell us what they have heard then we don't have anything to talk about here. </mod>

PM me with a link to something relevant if you want the thread re-opening.