Son dead after Father reports stolen vehicle; police chase

Overheal

This didn't end well for anybody.

Preface: It's a tragic loss of life, but the son had to have completely lost his mind to respond to police the way he did. I get that the father is devastated, but the facts kinda speak for themselves.

http://reason.com/blog/2013/11/07/never-call-the-cops-unless-you-want-some

James Comstock refused to buy a pack of cigarettes for his 19-year-old son, Tyler, and now he’s planning his son’s funeral.
“He took off with my truck. I call the police, and they kill him,” James Comstock told The Des Moines Register on Tuesday. “It was over a damn pack of cigarettes. I wouldn’t buy him none.
“And I lose my son for that.”
Comstock said he’s outraged police shot and killed his son Monday morning on Iowa State University’s campus.
Police began pursuing Tyler Comstock of Boone after his father reported the truck stolen. The truck belonged to a lawn care company.
Ames Police Officer Adam McPherson pursued Comstock into the heart of ISU’s campus. During the chase, Comstock rammed McPherson’s car. The truck eventually stopped, but Comstock revved the engine and refused orders to turn it off.
McPherson fired six shots into the truck. Comstock died from two gunshot wounds, according to the Iowa state medical examiner’s office.
James Comstock said his son was not carrying a weapon.

There is pretty damning dashcam video: http://www.kcci.com/news/central-iowa/dashcam-video-shows-ames-chase-shooting/-/9357080/22852990/-/3dg51cz/-/index.html

and the Dispatch audio: http://desmoinesregister.com/videonetwork/2808789798001

While the audio points out there were suggestions to back off pursuit, that suggestion comes after he's already rammed the officer and ran the red light, as the cop is trying to resume visual. The second suggestion to back off comes while the 2 vehicles are colliding the 2nd time. Whatever the chain of command, this comes as a suggestion not an order.

High speed pursuits are definitely a lethal issue in themselves. This could have ended at the 2nd traffic light, violently. Pedestrians are seen in the line of fire too, one was in the crosswalk while the SUV was blowing through, just before he pulls into the grass.

Loses the trailer, equipment flying everywhere, and by the time the shots are fired (I counted 7) the SUV is completely pounded up. The son still chooses to ram the officer's vehicle.

Whatever the rationale, it would be nice if there were better ways to prevent these types of pursuits. In this case, it would have been possible to do so given the circumstances: this was the father's son. Other circumstances, like real GTA's, or especially Amber Alerts, you wouldn't really have a safe option to let the suspect flee: the crime is gotten away with or worse, someone is killed anyway (especially in the case of the Amber alert). Some experiments are going on in a Florida police dept. I think out in Orlando/Tampa etc. where cars are going to be armed with tracking-pods - think the batmobile. Problem is these are still highly experimental and have a very low success rate of fire and attach, even on a parked test target. And that still doesn't eliminate the dangers or prevent the crime.

Hate to say it but I see a future where a cop can send a lockout code to your registered vehicle to kill the engine and clamp the brake discs - like they already can to their own bait-cars.

qaf

It is different in different localities/states but they should start by ending the fascination they have with people with military experience as a starting point. I can see where military police might have some have transferable skills and of course all military members have general fitness but why should you get put in front of other candidates because you served in the infantry or in tank? I have friends who went the college law enforcement route, working for probation/parole/etc, and they basically have no hope of getting a police job. Meanwhile the biggest jerk I know served a few years in the military and he gets on the force cause he gets extra points on the test. Then they wonder why police forces are becoming more militarized and most cops react by shooting first.

clairefontaine

Moral of the story. Don't ever call the cops without expecting someone to get shot.

StinkyMunkey

Well, the guy threw a temper trantrum and put the lives of innocent people at risk. Post natal depression i can forgive, putting peoples lives in danger because daddy said no is a different issue.

Over kill imo, but then again i wasnt being rammed by a 2/3 ton truck.

Jester252

What a biased link

Overheal

Jester252 wrote: »

What a biased link

?

Jester252

Overheal wrote: »

?

Never, never call the cops unless you are ready for the situation to end with someone shot to death
Regardless, the use of lethal force on someone for cop-defiance and traffic violations should, to put it mildly, happen less often.

Good to see him jumping to conclusion without looking a the big picture but what do you expect from a biased website

Billy86

Jester252 wrote: »

Good to see him jumping to conclusion without looking a the big picture but what do you expect from a biased website

I didn't even read the title of the link, just looked at the video. It's damning, no denying that.

Rayne Wooney

Somebody say it...


M.. Me...Mer......















...Merciless from the police.

Overheal

Jester252 wrote: »

Good to see him jumping to conclusion without looking a the big picture but what do you expect from a biased website

I'm not sure what the author's editorial comment has to do with the reporting. He offers extremely raw quotation, audio, and video of the incident. His opinion bears no relevance to the issue, or the credibility of the report. Neither does the nature of the website.

apollo8

He had no gun he shouldnt have been shot
Irish and British police deal with these situations every day without fatalities
Whats wrong with American cops

Overheal

apollo8 wrote: »

He had no gun he shouldnt have been shot
Irish and British police deal with these situations every day without fatalities
Whats wrong with American cops

Post #2 I like, above.

The rationale from the cops being he's in possession of the vehicle, which used improperly can definitely kill. And at least a couple times during that chase it nearly could have, particularly at the pedestrian crosswalk, and the intersection.

You've probably seen a lot of those "Wildest Police Videos" on youtube/discovery where in more protracted chases the cops employ vehicle takedowns/maneuvers to box in or disable the vehicle. Neither gets employed here but its hard to say if the correct opportunity was there without being an expert. Its not uncommon for drivers to be shot when they treat the vehicle like a weapon though, or otherwise refuse commands to shut it down.

Thats what happened to the lunatic Irish guy in Oregon a few years back. There was a guy in Tampa/Miami that got absolutely riddled with bullets too, but in that case I think it turned into a brutality investigation, with leaked video of cops pointing guns at bystanders who were recording on their phones.

In Japan they have that completely different philosopher where the cops have a Zero-Pursuit policy or some such, but I don't know the details or if there are caveats. For instance though if you're caught by a cop speeding they don't bother pulling you over/pursuing you you're just fined by mail or something. Anybody know the full breakdown on that?

Super-Rush

In case a few of you are wondering where your posts went to, I'll explain it in very simple terms so you can grasp what I'm saying without any difficulty.

The next time anyone comes into a thread and says something like "paging poster xyz" or "I can't wait to hear what poster xyz has to say" I will ban them permanently and recommend that they are site banned. What you are doing is bullying and I won't fcuking have it happen in After Hours.

Boneyarsebogman, StinkyMunky and Driveby Dogboy don't post in this thread again.

Augmerson

I don't think this isn't tragic but at the same time we often focus a lot on American issues in this forum and I wonder why sometimes.

EDIT: OP is American I assume, all makes sense, sorry OP.

Jester252

Overheal wrote: »

I'm not sure what the author's editorial comment has to do with the reporting. He offers extremely raw quotation, audio, and video of the incident. His opinion bears no relevance to the issue, or the credibility of the report. Neither does the nature of the website.

The report you linked to is a copy paste job from a real news site with the authors own personal biased added for extra effect. If you do belie what you posted why did you link to the biased site not the news site?

Untouchable Peasant

I'm of the opinion that when someone drives through a red light at speed and endangers countless lives in the process, the pursuit should end. Let a helicopter take over of possible but there is no way Police should continue to chase a car thief at those speeds and risk the deaths of innocent lives.

There are exceptions of course and at times there might be a need to stop someone, if they have threatened to kill people or something similar but to just catch someone who has stolen or taken a car without permission, nah, no way should Police take part in high speed pursuits to catch someone who is committing a crime of that nature. It's simply not worth it.

ringadingding

In my opinion, you ram a cop car a few times, keep trying to escape putting lives at risk, in America.
You're looking to get shot.

I can totally see why the police would shoot him.

It really was like a scene from GTA

What cheat gets you the lawn mower trailer ?

Guy:Incognito

apollo8 wrote: »

He had no gun he shouldnt have been shot
Irish and British police deal with these situations every day without fatalities
Whats wrong with American cops

What like the 2 gardai killed when they were rammed by a stolen car on the stillorgan dual carriageway a few years ago?

Axwell

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

What like the 2 gardai killed when they were rammed by a stolen car on the stillorgan dual carriageway a few years ago?

Hes referring to the fact the cops over here wouldnt have shot the suspect and would have dealt with it differently. You are talking about something completely different.

Guy:Incognito

Axwell wrote: »

Hes referring to the fact the cops over here wouldnt have shot the suspect and would have dealt with it differently. You are talking about something completely different.

Im talking about 2 unarmed gardai being rammed by a stolen car the american cops had guns and shot the guy ramming them. In america it was one dead car robber, here it was 2 dead gardai.

Axwell

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Im talking about 2 unarmed gardai being rammed by a stolen car the american cops had guns and shot the guy ramming them. In america it was one dead car robber, here it was 2 dead gardai.

You are talking about a completely different set of circumstances and trying to use it to justify shooting the guy. The guy that killed the 2 gardai in Stillorgan had 42 previous convictions, 11 for road traffic offences. The guy in America had a row with his father over cigarettes and obviously some issues. Complete overkill to fire 8 shots into the truck and kill the guy without trying to injury him or otherwise immobilise the vehicle.

Overheal

Jester252 wrote: »

The report you linked to is a copy paste job from a real news site with the authors own personal biased added for extra effect. If you do belie what you posted why did you link to the biased site not the news site?

This is the article someone shared on social media, and thats how I came across the story. I fortunately am cognizant of my abilities to think for myself. A brief introduction to the subject matter, and the raw audio and video, were plenty for me to establish my own understanding of the issue. The blogger's commentary really has no weight on how I feel about the issue, and I did not quote the blogger's words in my OP. Incidentally, I only quoted what was already quoted from the source article. Apologies for not using MLA standard citation.

Axwell wrote: »

You are talking about a completely different set of circumstances and trying to use it to justify shooting the guy. The guy that killed the 2 gardai in Stillorgan had 42 previous convictions, 11 for road traffic offences. The guy in America had a row with his father over cigarettes and obviously some issues. Complete overkill to fire 8 shots into the truck and kill the guy without trying to injury him or otherwise immobilise the vehicle.

Actually the background of the 2 drivers is irrelevant to the There and Now of both situations isn't it? First I heard of any Stillorgan incident, but the fact would be surely that you have 2 drivers using their vehicles in a way intended to harm, maim, or kill?

Explain how you injure a driver inside of a moving vehicle, aware of the fact that only his chest, shoulders, and head are within the line of fire. Explain how you would immobilize the vehicle in the given situation. Police have several tactics for vehicle immobilization, none of which were applicable in this short lived pursuit. Those takedowns usually involve stalling the engine or causing a vehicle to spin-out, neither of which there was room to do here.

Oranage2

Tragic story but it is America and they have different laws, it's far too dangerous for cops there not to use a gun. Hind sight we could say the cops should have pulled him out of the car, but they don't know if the kid was armed, could easily end up with a dead cop just doing his job.

I think the cop did the right thing.

Jester252

Axwell wrote: »

You are talking about a completely different set of circumstances and trying to use it to justify shooting the guy. The guy that killed the 2 gardai in Stillorgan had 42 previous convictions, 11 for road traffic offences. The guy in America had a row with his father over cigarettes and obviously some issues. Complete overkill to fire 8 shots into the truck and kill the guy without trying to injury him or otherwise immobilise the vehicle.

Doesn't matter what the did or didn't do in the past. What matter is a guy. who is not in a logical state of mind, is sitting behind the wheel of over one ton of steel pointed at you. He revs the engine. What do you do?

Is it possible for police to shoot tyres instead while stopped? Or is that mad unreasonable marksman skillz?

Capt'n Midnight

http://rt.com/usa/us-germany-85-shots-022/

Eighty-five shots: That’s the total number of bullets German police used in all of 2011, Der Spiegel reports. But what does it say when US cops use as much ammo to bring down one man as German cops need to keep the peace nationwide?

The rate at which German police discharged their firearms is further underscored by how rarely they shot with fatal intent. Of the 85 bullets used in 2011, 49 were warnings shots, 36 were aimed at criminal suspects, 15 people were injured, and 6 were killed, the German daily continues.

The statistics prove "our police officers are not thugs in uniform,”Christian Democratic insider Lorenz Caffier said.

In the interests of balance
http://news.yahoo.com/german-police-used-only-85-bullets-against-people-155155175.html

Technically, about 9,000 more shots were fired at sick and dangerous animals.

[edit]Link to Der Spiegel
http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/polizei-schoss-2011-seltener-im-dienst-a-832037.html

fasttalkerchat

America will never recover from their society wide gun problem.

SlipperyPeople

Look how fat the second cop is in that dash cam video.

he'd never have a hope in catching anyone on foot.

Billy86

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Im talking about 2 unarmed gardai being rammed by a stolen car the american cops had guns and shot the guy ramming them. In america it was one dead car robber, here it was 2 dead gardai.

Have you watched the video? they get out -after- the ramming (in a tight space so it doesn't come over as particularly impactful) and shooting. It's not like they pull a Jason Bourne before the guy could even get to them, which your post seems to be implying.

http://www.kcci.com/news/central-iowa/dashcam-video-shows-ames-chase-shooting/-/9357080/22852990/-/3dg51cz/-/index.html
- Go to 4:00 and tell me who you think that ramming is going to kill.

MJ23

Another story about Americans and their crazy ways.

guttenberg

hungoverbunny wrote: »

Look how fat the second cop is in that dash cam video.

he'd never have a hope in catching anyone on foot.

Think you mean the third cop, the second one to appear is the skinniest.

Sofaspud

bluewolf wrote: »

Is it possible for police to shoot tyres instead while stopped? Or is that mad unreasonable marksman skillz?

Even if they could, that wouldn't slow down the truck enough to stop it being dangerous.

When I first read the headline I thought "Murica", but having seen the video I think the shooting, while still overkill, is justifiable as self defence. The cop was obviously in a state of panic.

SlipperyPeople

guttenberg wrote: »

Think you mean the third cop, the second one to appear is the skinniest.

word

NIMAN

Their logic in the US seems to be that they are always under threat, so shoot first and ask questions later. You can maybe understand this in a country where there are so many guns. They probably assume anyone who has gone off the rails is carrying a weapon.

There is also a history of police getting off with shooting people dead, so there seems to be a willingness to shoot at will, knowing you are very unlikely to be charged with anything.

"He was ramming us with a truck, I shot him dead"
"He was acting suspiciously, I shot him dead"
"He was acting erratic, I shot him dead"
"He was coming at us with a metal bar, I shot him dead".

Overheal

bluewolf wrote: »

Is it possible for police to shoot tyres instead while stopped? Or is that mad unreasonable marksman skillz?

not realistic and not always effective. the vehicle can still operate on flat tires anyway. Not as effectively, but it's still dangerous.