Why did my dog growl at a child?

awanderer

I decided to start this thread because of another recent thread about a child being attacked by a dog

My partner and I adopted a 2 year old labrador more than 2 months ago. Our dog generally loves people and dogs alike. At the very beginning we thought that he had been a bit agressive toward a dog we used to doggysit in the past, but looking back, we probably misinterpreted their interaction.
2 weeks ago, while on the lead, our dog was bitten on the face by another dog that was not on the lead (the owner immediatly disappeared on his bike and the other dog followed). Our dog thankfully, despite bleeding after the incident, didn't seem traumatised and seemed to forget about the incident within seconds.
Our dog has since spent 2 half days in a doggy day care centre and the staff is adamant that he has a very healthy way of interacting with all other dogs and is not aggressive at all (I suspect that our dog is happy to be at last allowed to interact freely with his owns).

My problem is one specific incident that happened 3 weeks ago and has been on my mind since.
We were walking with the dog on the lead in a local wood/park. We met several adults (sometimes with dogs on lead) and children. Sometimes our dog didn't show any interest in the people/dogs, sometimes he pulled on the lead as if he wanted to greet them but always in a friendly manner.
Towards the end of the walk however, a little girl, who was part of a group of adults and chidren playing nearby, came towards us wanting to pet the dog. When the little girl was about 10 feet from us, our dog started growling in what sounded like a threatening way. We immediatly grabbed our dog by the collar and little girl, obviously worried, moved away. The girl hadn't been running towards us and as far as we could see, didn't do anything that could cause the dog to feel threatened.
Before, and since this incident, our dog has been in contact with several children and has always been friendly but I am always anxious about it as I still haven't found out what made our dog behave that way on that day.

How far is there between a dog growling and a dog attacking? What could explain his behaviour on that day? and is there anything we should do (beside of course keeping our dog on the lead and away from children) to ensure that children are safe around our dog?

TheBoffin

Was it the same park where the dog was bitten?

inocybe

A growl isn't a totally bad thing, it's a warning that the dog is uncomfortable. The dangerous dogs are the ones that give no warning. Punishing your dog for growling will teach him to suppress his signals, while increasing his fear. It sounds like rather than avoiding children, you need to meet more children, at a safe distance. Extra special treats whenever kids are about, could progress to kids tossing treats to him, so that he associates children with good things happening to him.

awanderer

TheBoffin wrote: »

Was it the same park where the dog was bitten?

No, it was the first time we went to that park. Our dog is usually walked by the sea.

Our dog being bitten seems to have been more traumatic for me than for him. He yelped and I stupidly just grabbed him by the collar to stop him from attacking the other dog (which was smaller). I only realised 2 minutes later that my dog had really been bitten and was bleeding near the eye, by then he seemed to have forgotten everything about it and wanted to play fetch.

It just made me wonder if our dog was bad at reading other dogs' body language (surely he should have guessed, even if I didn't, that the other dog wasn't friendly) which is why we decided to bring him to doggy day care so he could interact with other dogs while supervised by people more knowledgeable than me.

awanderer

inocybe wrote: »

A growl isn't a totally bad thing, it's a warning that the dog is uncomfortable. The dangerous dogs are the ones that give no warning. Punishing your dog for growling will teach him to suppress his signals, while increasing his fear. It sounds like rather than avoiding children, you need to meet more children, at a safe distance. Extra special treats whenever kids are about, could progress to kids tossing treats to him, so that he associates children with good things happening to him.

So, do you think a dog that growls is not more susceptible to be aggressive than a dog that doesn't?

A friend of mine, who knew my dog and to whom I had spoken about the incident, insisted that I let my dog interact with her 3 year old son (under very close supervision of course). Our dog seemed just excited and happy to meet somebody new and was his usual friendly self but that didn't reassure me as I see it as meaning that the dog is unpredictable rather than just allergic to children:(.

TheBoffin

So, do you think a dog that growls is not more susceptible to be aggressive than a dog that doesn't?

A growl is a good thing and not always associated with aggression. A Growl is a warning. My dog growls at plastic bags and takes off like a rocket when the bag moves.

tk123

TBH there could be a million reasons why the dog growled - you can beat yourself up over it or just forget it and move on. I'd be inclined to walk near playgrounds at a distance to guage how the dog reacts - watch his body language - eg when my dog is on alert he stands tall sniffing and his tail flicks quickly
My dog barks at anything he's not sure of - eg a cardboard box in the park were it doesn't belong and silly stuff like that. Sometimes it's people - they could be wearing a hat, stooped over, carrying a bag or for no reason that I can see but whatever he senses he doesn't want them near us. I've learnt to spot the signs that he's going to bark and distract him from whatever it is - sometimes it works and sometimes he'll get a couple of barks in for good measure and come back paying attention to me instead.

A growl isn't always a warning either - my pup growls and woowoos to greet people!

awanderer

TheBoffin wrote: »

A growl is a good thing and not always associated with aggression. A Growl is a warning. My dog growls at plastic bags and takes off like a rocket when the bag moves.

tk123 wrote: »

TBH there could be a million reasons why the dog growled - you can beat yourself up over it or just forget it and move on. I'd be inclined to walk near playgrounds at a distance to guage how the dog reacts - watch his body language - eg when my dog is on alert he stands tall sniffing and his tail flicks quickly
My dog barks at anything he's not sure of - eg a cardboard box in the park were it doesn't belong and silly stuff like that. Sometimes it's people - they could be wearing a hat, stooped over, carrying a bag or for no reason that I can see but whatever he senses he doesn't want them near us. I've learnt to spot the signs that he's going to bark and distract him from whatever it is - sometimes it works and sometimes he'll get a couple of barks in for good measure and come back paying attention to me instead.

A growl isn't always a warning either - my pup growls and woowoos to greet people!

My dog had barked at men twice and I also worried about that until a friend asked me if they were wearing hats (they were:D). It is so much easier when a dog behaviour can be explained rationally (if barking because of a hat can be called rational:p).

The growling at the little girl sounded much more threatening though and was probably all the more worrying because of the size of the child. I could not forgive myself if a child was hurt because I didn't understand my dog's behaviour/warning signs.

tk123

I'd err on the side of caution with any child approaching a dog, have the dog sit etc and loads of praise - kids can come in guns blazing and freak the dog out. I'm taking it that you don't know what happened to the dog before you got him - he could have had a bad experience with a child and was reminded of it? EG I know somebody who has a dog who's leg was broken by the toddler in the family so is terrified of kids - dog was brought to the vet to be pts because they wouldn't be able to show him so no point having the leg fixed :mad: - the vet refused and the agreed to let him take the dog to be rehomed. The dog is a dalmation so they have kids coming up all the time pet "Pongo" (thats not his name lol) so a nightmare for the owners.
I had kids a while back screaming and shouting at my dog trying to grab his tail - he ran and hid behind my friend's husband! Mammy was on the phone not even paying attention

awanderer

tk123 wrote: »

I'd err on the side of caution with any child approaching a dog, have the dog sit etc and loads of praise - kids can come in guns blazing and freak the dog out. I'm taking it that you don't know what happened to the dog before you got him - he could have had a bad experience with a child and was reminded of it? EG I know somebody who has a dog who's leg was broken by the toddler in the family so is terrified of kids - dog was brought to the vet to be pts because they wouldn't be able to show him so no point having the leg fixed :mad: - the vet refused and the agreed to let him take the dog to be rehomed. The dog is a dalmation so they have kids coming up all the time pet "Pongo" (thats not his name lol) so a nightmare for the owners.
I had kids a while back screaming and shouting at my dog trying to grab his tail - he ran and hid behind my friend's husband! Mammy was on the phone not even paying attention

We were told that the dog belonged to an elderly woman who passed away. It is clear, from the way he behaves that he was loved. We do not however know what kind of contact he had with children. He seems to have mainly lived indoor.
Up to that incident, he hadn't shown any sign that he didn't enjoy children's company and the only reason we were wary was because he's very strong and we thought he was a bit too rough and puppy-like to be around small kids.

Outkast_IRE

Nothing wrong with a growl it lets , you and the other person know that for whatever reason the dog might be uncomfortable and to back off.

I would be more concerned with a real aggressive sign such as snarling etc.

DBB

I'm worried here that growling is being glossed over as nothing to worry about. Nobody here is in a position to say so!
Lads, we're always telling people when their dog escalates in aggression that the owner must have missed the early warning signs, which include growling!
To dismiss it is a mistake, the op is right to be trying to figure out what's going on, because growling IS (often) a warning, a warning that this low level of aggression will escalate if necessary.

That said, there are different types of growls, but as a general rule, all growls are indicative of emotional arousal (not necessarily leading to aggression). But how can any of us here tell which it is? Is it fear? Anger? Excitement? Frustration?
Until we know the answer, nobody should be writing off the significance of the growl.
I would consider it important for the op to dig deeper to try to reveal what was the likely underlying emotion behind the growl at the child.

OP, is your daycare run by people with behavioural expertise? If not, perhaps a call to a properly qualified behaviourist will allow you describe that growl, and the circumstances, better than anyone can in writing.
If you let us know where you are, hopefully we can recommend a qualified behaviourist near you, who can visit you if you feel that's necessary :-)

barbiegirl

From what you said the child was approaching the dog, the dog said nope I'm not comfortable and told you so. This allowed you to take control of the situation. I think good dog.
Our Sindy is the sweetest most pleasant dog I've ever met, but on 3 occasions she has shown fright at people we meet, once an old lady on a walker who very nicely came forward and gave her a treat to calm her down, once a little boy who was standing up the hill from us and once a child who came to play with my nephew who kept following her when told not to and she had removed herself 3 times from his company. She let the person in charge each time now she was scared and the situation was dealt with. Does it colour our view of her, yep, we know she will let us know when she is unhappy before it escalates.

inocybe

awanderer wrote: »

We were told that the dog belonged to an elderly woman who passed away. It is clear, from the way he behaves that he was loved. We do not however know what kind of contact he had with children. He seems to have mainly lived indoor.
Up to that incident, he hadn't shown any sign that he didn't enjoy children's company and the only reason we were wary was because he's very strong and we thought he was a bit too rough and puppy-like to be around small kids.

It sounds likely he wasn't socialized around children, it's good that you know this now and can keep an eye on him. Be aware that when a dog is on lead stress can be much higher as the dog can feel trapped. When you say aggressive growling, was he pulling towards the child or hanging back? If you feel there was real aggression there it's probably best to find an expert to help you assess him.

awanderer

DBB wrote: »

I'm worried here that growling is being glossed over as nothing to worry about. Nobody here is in a position to say so!
Lads, we're always telling people when their dog escalates in aggression that the owner must have missed the early warning signs, which include growling!
To dismiss it is a mistake, the op is right to be trying to figure out what's going on, because growling IS (often) a warning, a warning that this low level of aggression will escalate if necessary.

That said, there are different types of growls, but as a general rule, all growls are indicative of emotional arousal (not necessarily leading to aggression). But how can any of us here tell which it is? Is it fear? Anger? Excitement? Frustration?
Until we know the answer, nobody should be writing off the significance of the growl.
I would consider it important for the op to dig deeper to try to reveal what was the likely underlying emotion behind the growl at the child.

OP, is your daycare run by people with behavioural expertise? If not, perhaps a call to a properly qualified behaviourist will allow you describe that growl, and the circumstances, better than anyone can in writing.
If you let us know where you are, hopefully we can recommend a qualified behaviourist near you, who can visit you if you feel that's necessary :-)

The daycare staff I spoke to are not, as far as I know, qualified behaviourists. The owner said he was "registered Dog Trainer with DTAIL (Dog Trainers Association of Ireland) and has his degree in Canine Behaviour (Coap in the UK)" but I didn't speak to him. I didn't ask the staff any advice about that incident though. I mentionned it during my dog's assessment but they didn't seem concerned. I brought the dog to the day care mainly for 2 reasons: 1) he doesn't do well with being left alone and I'll soon work full time (my partner works from home but there might be times were he has to go away for a few hours/days). 2) I wanted to know if he was able to interact safely with other dogs and thought that a daycare was a good way to learn that in a controlled environment.

Soon, we will enroll our dog in another daycare, this one in Galway. Does Galway have day cares ran by qualified behaviourists? I found 2 day cares there and both would be convenient as they are either on my way to or close to work so any advise on which is the best would also be more that welcome.

I would also welcome any info about a behaviourist around Galway.

barbiegirl wrote: »

From what you said the child was approaching the dog, the dog said nope I'm not comfortable and told you so. This allowed you to take control of the situation. I think good dog.
Our Sindy is the sweetest most pleasant dog I've ever met, but on 3 occasions she has shown fright at people we meet, once an old lady on a walker who very nicely came forward and gave her a treat to calm her down, once a little boy who was standing up the hill from us and once a child who came to play with my nephew who kept following her when told not to and she had removed herself 3 times from his company. She let the person in charge each time now she was scared and the situation was dealt with. Does it colour our view of her, yep, we know she will let us know when she is unhappy before it escalates.

I do hope that this is the case. I am always torn between wanting to be cautious and not depriving our dog from enjoying normal dog life.
It is strange how I doggysat and walked friends dogs for years without any worry or problem but now I seem to lack confidence when caring for my own dog.

DBB

Hmm. I'll pm you on this op, but there's something not adding up about what you've said about the behaviour guy associated with your daycare. COAPE don't do degrees, but that's not the only anomaly I can spot!

There is a super girl in Galway who trained in the US with the San Francisco SPCA Dog Training Academy, under the guidance of tutors who have a serious reputation in the industry. Her name is Tara Nic Dhiarmada, I'll try to find you a contact number for her. I think she may have connections with a daycare service over that way!

Edited to add: contact details for Tara:
http://www.petnetwork.ie/viewlisting.php?view=331

awanderer

inocybe wrote: »

It sounds likely he wasn't socialized around children, it's good that you know this now and can keep an eye on him. Be aware that when a dog is on lead stress can be much higher as the dog can feel trapped. When you say aggressive growling, was he pulling towards the child or hanging back? If you feel there was real aggression there it's probably best to find an expert to help you assess him.

He was on short lead. My partner, unfortunately, always shortened the lead when any new situation arouse. He was a believer in the alpha male and pack leader theory and thought that if he relaxed, the dog would immediatly take advantage. Luckily, he seems to have changed his attitude a lot and is becoming softer. He probably realised that the dog was listening to and obeying me despite me not being an alpha anything so maybe the info I had gathered for months on the internet was not only silly modern softy theories.
I do not believe the dog was pulling in any direction when he growled (I will check with my partner).

awanderer

DBB wrote: »

Hmm. I'll pm you on this op, but there's something not adding up about what you've said about the behaviour guy associated with your daycare. COAPE don't do degrees, but that's not the only anomaly I can spot!

There is a super girl in Galway who trained in the US with the San Francisco SPCA Dog Training Academy, under the guidance of tutors who have a serious reputation in the industry. Her name is Tara Nic Dhiarmada, I'll try to find you a contact number for her. I think she may have connections with a daycare service over that way!

Edited to add: contact details for Tara:
http://www.petnetwork.ie/viewlisting.php?view=331

I more or less copy-pasted the answer the daycare owner gave me when I asked, among other things, about his qualifications! The website mentionned training classes but did not mention any qualifications so I asked for precision.