Sheep Breed - bad points

AnFeirmeoir

Every breed society claims their sheep have great feet, good mothering, good milk, good kill out and are prolific. - Check their websites.- amazing !
We all know their is no one perfect breed. So how about a bit of honesty about the bad bits of the breed you have.

I've got some Belclare coming through for the past few years and while i stand over their prolific nature, their medium size and resistance to parasites, I'm not convinced on their milking (which is touted as one of their main benefits) and i would not say they have good feet. I was at a Belclare ram sale and a good 50% of rams there feet were terrible.
The ewes are still a bit young and it was a tough year so maybe milk will improve.

Suffolks scour more than anything else. This is a fact - from 20 years experience.

Cran

AnFeirmeoir wrote: »

Every breed society claims their sheep have great feet, good mothering, good milk, good kill out and are prolific. - Check their websites.- amazing !
We all know their is no one perfect breed. So how about a bit of honesty about the bad bits of the breed you have.

I've got some Belclare coming through for the past few years and while i stand over their prolific nature, their medium size and resistance to parasites, I'm not convinced on their milking (which is touted as one of their main benefits) and i would not say they have good feet. I was at a Belclare ram sale and a good 50% of rams there feet were terrible.
The ewes are still a bit young and it was a tough year so maybe milk will improve.

Suffolks scour more than anything else. This is a fact - from 20 years experience.

Breed Charollais, bad points not a maternal breed. I love the conversation that starts have some Charollais cross ewes, always know where its going. I think there's only one Charollais cross ewe on my farm and she was an accidental pregnacy 2 years ago. They're just too nuts and tend to get to fat for commercial ewes. Be careful of their mouths when buying rams seems to be historic fault in some strains of the breed being overshot (duckbill).
But good points far out weigh bad points with the Charollais, easy lambed, quick to get up, hardy when born and grow like lead

I think feet is a problem across all breeds just need to know what to look for. When buying sheep I always look from the feet up.

rancher

Cran wrote: »

Breed Charollais, bad points not a maternal breed. I love the conversation that starts have some Charollais cross ewes, always know where its going. I think there's only one Charollais cross ewe on my farm and she was an accidental pregnacy 2 years ago. They're just too nuts and tend to get to fat for commercial ewes. Be careful of their mouths when buying rams seems to be historic fault in some strains of the breed being overshot (duckbill).
But good points far out weigh bad points with the Charollais, easy lambed, quick to get up, hardy when born and grow like lead

I think feet is a problem across all breeds just need to know what to look for. When buying sheep I always look from the feet up.

Always warn buyers not to use our vendeens to breed replacement ewes, and if you look at the website we say mainly terminal breed,
Pure they are very short of milk and very prolific.....bad combination,
But some farmers do use them as crossbreds because they are so quiet and tame

jomoloney

agree in general with all comments

I suppose the breed I was most disappointed with, was the belclare, 'cos of their poor milking ability & also some were poor mothers

also experimented with Ch, Vendeen, Rouge, and blue de Maine,

Nowdays we buy Mayo mule and keep suffolk X ewe lamb and in turn X these with a texel, and that's as far it goes,

This year we bought some Lleyn but they went with ch and HD so won't be keeping any first season breeders off them

we cull rigorously on feet and mothering ability, and wer'e always cautious we don't step backwards

tabby aspreme

If there was a perfect breed, lads would get out of sheep, what keeps most people farming sheep is the desire to improve what they have and have a better year next year, I think sheep farmers are the most optimistic group of people you will find.
I suppose breeds can be classified as maternal or terminal and very few are both some lads will say Suffolk are dual purpose, the nearest thing I have seen to dual purpose is Berrichon du Cher, had a ram years ago and had great ewes by him , tried to get one in the north this year but they were all sold in august , will go earlier next year

brownswiss

Happy enough with the Belclare. Delighted with Charollais. Suffolk is my greatest challenge. I feel that I need to cross suffolk in every couple of years but I can not breed nice looking suffolk X ewes like I could 10 years ago. Last suffolk ram I bought was always dirty & so are his offspring. Just gambled €500 on a new one so fingers crossed for next year. We also have some nice Texel sheep. I never heard of Belclare sheep being short of milk. My best one reared 5 lambs without any getting a bottle.

Mac Taylor

The last 2 rams we've had have been suffolk. Both bought as ram lambs, they are seriously wicked. Would turn you upside down given half a chance. (by the way they have company all year round.) anyone else find them cross or have we been unlucky?

tabby aspreme

Anyone else find that sheep with white hooves give more foot trouble than sheep with black hooves

sea12

Mac Taylor wrote: »

The last 2 rams we've had have been suffolk. Both bought as ram lambs, they are seriously wicked. Would turn you upside down given half a chance. (by the way they have company all year round.) anyone else find them cross or have we been unlucky?

Yep I have a Suffolk ram and he attacks you all year long once you step in the field. Serious wicked. As soon as he serves the ewes he is with he is for the hook. Tio dangerous for the father or the kids.

monseiur

sea12 wrote: »

Yep I have a Suffolk ram and he attacks you all year long once you step in the field. Serious wicked. As soon as he serves the ewes he is with he is for the hook. Tio dangerous for the father or the kids.

Hi,
Just wondering how many weeks after being with the ewes would a ram be fit to kill ie. taste & quality of meat etc.

M.

Username John

Historically, we would have always kept Suffolk ewes here, and put a Suffolk ram on em.
We would have had issues with keeping em clean, especially any late lambs at this time of the year.
As for feet - yeah, some have bad feet, but I am trying to get rid of the bad ones over time, and doing more foot bathing, and it seems to be working...
Bad feet seems to be in some of em tho, not all of em... A lot depends on the ram I think...

For me - cos we have Suffolk ewes, and were using a Suffolk ram - lambing was difficult, especially big single lambs, with big stupid boxy heads...

That would be the only big bad point I would have with Suffolk. But - maybe I only say that cos I don't have much experience of anything else, and dont know any better

I got a Hampshire Down ram last year, to help with the boxy head issue, and I think it seemed to help, the heads weren't as square...

(Cran will like this ) I got a few Charolais ewes, and Charolais cross ewes. I am getting rid of em now slowly. Lovely lambs, but I found the Charolais ewes poor enough for milk.
I would like to get a Charolais ram in time tho, as I like the look of the Charolais lambs - lovely tidy meaty lambs...

I'd like to get a few North County Cheviot ewes at some stage, to see what sort of lambs they throw from a Hampshire / Suffolk ram.

As someone above said, its more toying with different breeds, to see what suits the individual best rather than defining any one breed as best for all...

eire23

tabby aspreme wrote: »

Anyone else find that sheep with white hooves give more foot trouble than sheep with black hooves

Heard this before. Might be a bit of truth in it as the ewes with black hooves have hardier feet?
Tbh i think that no matter what breed you have if you foot bath regularly and trim the feet when they need it you wont have much of a problem with lame sheep

tomwaterford

eire23 wrote: »

Heard this before. Might be a bit of truth in it as the ewes with black hooves have hardier feet?
Tbh i think that no matter what breed you have if you foot bath regularly and trim the feet when they need it you wont have much of a problem with lame sheep

+1 on regular footbathing...shocking the amount who havnt a footbath,worth its weight in gold

Conmaicne Mara

Have blackface and cheviot cross here. Got no footbath and don't need one. I would question sheep that need bathing and trimming regularly, it's a time consuming operation that pays you nothing.

eire23

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Have blackface and cheviot cross here. Got no footbath and don't need one. I would question sheep that need bathing and trimming regularly, it's a time consuming operation that pays you nothing.

Majority of our flock at the moment would be blackface X cheviot.
Wouldnt agree that its a time consming operation that pays you nothing.
A ewe that has scalds and mightnt be lame enough for you to notice her wont be inclined to forage around and graze like a normal ewe, wont put on condition right if your looking to get them in shape for going to the ram, wont milk as well etc, all these have knock on effects. If your foot bathing regularly you dont have to leave them it for long, so you would have a batch done in no length.
And imo not matter what breed of sheep you have their feet will need pairing at some stage as the hoof becomes overgrown.

Conmaicne Mara

eire23 wrote: »

Majority of our flock at the moment would be blackface X cheviot.
Wouldnt agree that its a time consming operation that pays you nothing.
A ewe that has scalds and mightnt be lame enough for you to notice her wont be inclined to forage around and graze like a normal ewe, wont put on condition right if your looking to get them in shape for going to the ram, wont milk as well etc, all these have knock on effects. If your foot bathing regularly you dont have to leave them it for long, so you would have a batch done in no length.
And imo not matter what breed of sheep you have their feet will need pairing at some stage as the hoof becomes overgrown.

The only time I've ever paired a sheeps foot was when she was lame, never as a regular operation, never footbathed them. Lameness is a fault IMO, not a run of the mill job.

eire23

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

The only time I've ever paired a sheeps foot was when she was lame, never as a regular operation, never footbathed them. Lameness is a fault IMO, not a run of the mill job.

But what was the problem with them sheeps feet? was it that the hoof was overgrown causing them to be lame or something else?
At the very most at any given time there might be 2 percent of the flock lame here. Have no foot rot, codd etc here and nine times outta 10 when their lame its scald and the regular footbathing solves that.
Wont fault a ewe for scald IMO, The constant wet damp weather were having now is a big factor i think.

farawaygrass

what do ye footbath them with? and find best? used to use formalin but now bluestone and reckon its good. hard to dissolve though

Username John

farawaygrass wrote: »

what do ye footbath them with? and find best? used to use formalin but now bluestone and reckon its good. hard to dissolve though

Use formalin.

I find it's good, but it makes the hoof hard, and sometimes if the hoof has a problem inside in it, it can make things worse, but overall I think it's good.

I tried bluestone, but my facilities are poor. So they only run through the footpath, with formalin I think it's better. As with bluestone, I think they would need to be soaking in it for a while.

eire23

Use zinc sulphate here. Find it good and as rancher said it the other thread, it can be reused. No need to make up a fresh mix every time which is a big bonus.
Have the hydrometer as well for measuring the strenght of it, its very handy as ya know straight if the solution is strong enough or not.

brownswiss

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Have blackface and cheviot cross here. Got no footbath and don't need one. I would question sheep that need bathing and trimming regularly, it's a time consuming operation that pays you nothing.

I have heard plenty of people admitting to not foot bathing but never anyone who did not need to. Have you culled over the years for the problem or what do you attribute it to ?

razor8

wouldnt footbath routinely here either, when they are in the shed i find i sometimes need to. over the summer i would do lambs once max to stop or treat scalds

any problem ewes are always culled, I culled fairly hard 5 or 6 years ago and now might only have to culls one or two a year. its definitely the only way to get on top of it

Conmaicne Mara

brownswiss wrote: »

I have heard plenty of people admitting to not foot bathing but never anyone who did not need to. Have you culled over the years for the problem or what do you attribute it to ?

I haven't culled - yet. I plan to, one lady in particular already has her card marked.

I don't know if there's a secret, they're blackface sheep both in fenced land and on boggy commonage/hill. Could be something in the soil, could be the availability of stoney ground wearing the hooves.

Thinking back over the years I genuinely can see no benefit for my flock to regularly foot bathe them. I see them at least once every day. For me it would be a waste of time and effort for zero reward.

On my travels I have seen fields with ewes shuffling around on their knees :eek:

I can't call mine a closed flock much as I'd like to, as they mix with the other shareholders - and rogue graziers - on the hill. The only animal I'd buy in is the ram. The odd time an weak animal belonging to a neighbour might be thrown in over my wall on a gather to be picked up later.

Regular hoof paring of sheep is something that completely baffles me.

While I have not specifically asked other farmers, I would not have heard of farmers in my area regularly footbathing either. I am not saying it doesn't happen, but I've not once heard it in conversation.

Conmaicne Mara

razor8 wrote: »

wouldnt footbath routinely here either, when they are in the shed i find i sometimes need to. over the summer i would do lambs once max to stop or treat scalds

any problem ewes are always culled, I culled fairly hard 5 or 6 years ago and now might only have to culls one or two a year. its definitely the only way to get on top of it

I have heard there are less foot problems on mesh than on straw, never having housed sheep on mesh I can't say whether that's true or not but there you go.

Conmaicne Mara

eire23 wrote: »

But what was the problem with them sheeps feet? was it that the hoof was overgrown causing them to be lame or something else?
At the very most at any given time there might be 2 percent of the flock lame here. Have no foot rot, codd etc here and nine times outta 10 when their lame its scald and the regular footbathing solves that.
Wont fault a ewe for scald IMO, The constant wet damp weather were having now is a big factor i think.

Scald mostly, very odd case of footrot. I have started marking any and all cases of footrot to be sent on their way. I will be watching any animal with scald like a hawk and also their lambs to see if there's a problem with certain lines being more susceptible than others.

Never had a case of a sheep with an overgrown hoof that wasn't lame.

eire23

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

I haven't culled - yet. I plan to, one lady in particular already has her card marked.

I don't know if there's a secret, they're blackface sheep both in fenced land and on boggy commonage/hill. Could be something in the soil, could be the availability of stoney ground wearing the hooves.

Thinking back over the years I genuinely can see no benefit for my flock to regularly foot bathe them. I see them at least once every day. For me it would be a waste of time and effort for zero reward.

On my travels I have seen fields with ewes shuffling around on their knees :eek:

I can't call mine a closed flock much as I'd like to, as they mix with the other shareholders - and rogue graziers - on the hill. The only animal I'd buy in is the ram. The odd time an weak animal belonging to a neighbour might be thrown in over my wall on a gather to be picked up later.

Regular hoof paring of sheep is something that completely baffles me.

While I have not specifically asked other farmers, I would not have heard of farmers in my area regularly footbathing either. I am not saying it doesn't happen, but I've not once heard it in conversation.

Would the soil where you are conmaicne be slightly acidic or something, might contribute to not needing to footbath?

Regaurding the hoof paring, most of the sheep when their turned over will need nothing done with them but anyone that does will get trimmed then before they get a chance to get lame. It might seem excessive but have only one sheep lame at the moment and have neighbours with codd/footrot and have none of that here so it works for me!.

razor8

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

I have heard there are less foot problems on mesh than on straw, never having housed sheep on mesh I can't say whether that's true or not but there you go.

I have both straw bed and concrete slats, if you don’t keep the straw topped up and clean they can get a infection like a bad scald between there hooves, a piece of dung can crust on the hoof and seal it leaving an ideal situation for bacteria to accumulate.
I would say mesh is best but would be very hard to keep clean I would imagine if feeding long silage or hay

Green farmer

I use a product called sure hoof or hoof sure , made by provita in a foot bath, works well for me one bottle lasts for years. Only footbath when I see a few lame.it's organic and you can empty footbath out on grass after use. Used formalin once. Got a splash of it on my hand and it burnt me, also acted like weedkiller on nearby grass that it splashed. Vowed to never use it ever again , just too dangerous.
I keep cross breed ewes, have all kinds of everything here but like belclare crosses and have a small number of cheviot cross sheep, but couldn't tell you whether their north county , south county , or Wicklow cheviots, does anyone know which type make the best mothers ?

gazahayes

What rate is formalin used at?

Johnsey

3% gaza