Another right of way Question.

CiniO

So here's the junction. It's a T junction, but for a change main road doesn't go straight which seems to be indicated by yield sign.
There is no road markings at all.

Which car has right of way in such situation and why?

ron jambo

Red car has right of way over blue car. Blue car has right of way over trafic comming from left.

djimi

Red car has right of way as the blue car must give way to traffic coming from right.

Stheno

Just rethought this (deleted last post) and there is a junction just like this between Portlaoise and Portarlingon, red car has rights as blue is crossing road and must yield to traffic on right but not left.

djimi

Then again, another way to look at it is that the "main" road is the one which the blue car is following (from bottom to right as we look at the diagram) as the left hand road has been marked as secondary by virtue of the yield sign, so that being the case then the red car would have to give right of way to the blue car as they would be effectively crossing over the main road.

Im not sure how true this is though; does a yield sign signify that the road is of lesser importance?

cruizer101

No road markings at all? can you link to the junction on google maps or is this just a hypothetical junction?

CiniO

djimi wrote: »

Then again, another way to look at it is that the "main" road is the one which the blue car is following (from bottom to right as we look at the diagram) as the left hand road has been marked as secondary by virtue of the yield sign, so that being the case then the red car would have to give right of way to the blue car as they would be effectively crossing over the main road.

Im not sure how true this is though; does a yield sign signify that the road is of lesser importance?

That's exactly why I started this thread.
As it doesn't seem to be clear, and there is two ways to look at it, like you presented.

If you assume, except from road with yield sign, this is junction of equal importance, then indeed red has right of way.
But if you assume the path that blue is going is the main road, then blue has the right of way.
Surely road markings would help here, but they are just not there.

Stheno

djimi wrote: »

Then again, another way to look at it is that the "main" road is the one which the blue car is following (from bottom to right as we look at the diagram) as the left hand road has been marked as secondary by virtue of the yield sign, so that being the case then the red car would have to give right of way to the blue car as they would be effectively crossing over the main road.

Im not sure how true this is though; does a yield sign signify that the road is of lesser importance?

In the case I'm thinking of the road the red car is on is marked as a secondary road, and the one the blue car is on is a primary road, so the yield is to allow the blue car to move unimpeded, but at the same time giving way to traffic on the same side on the secondary road if that makes any sense?

CiniO

cruizer101 wrote: »

No road markings at all? can you link to the junction on google maps or is this just a hypothetical junction?

That's real.
Here's a link from point of view of blue car.

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=louisburgh&hl=en&ll=53.712384,-9.882977&spn=0.001346,0.003484&sll=53.116902,-8.689842&sspn=0.174736,0.445976&t=h&hnear=Louisburgh,+County+Mayo,+Ireland&z=19&layer=c&cbll=53.71235,-9.883154&panoid=N7sNUAs85A6cKcEZeRBE_w&cbp=12,240.39,,0,10.18

djimi

cruizer101 wrote: »

No road markings at all? can you link to the junction on google maps or is this just a hypothetical junction?

I cant link to it right now, but off the top of my head I can think of at least two such junctions (on the same stretch of road) just like the one described above, with no road markings whatsoever (one might have a stop sign instead of a yield sign). On smaller country roads/lanes its not that uncommon at all.

Stheno

CiniO wrote: »

That's real.
Here's a link from point of view of blue car.

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=louisburgh&hl=en&ll=53.712384,-9.882977&spn=0.001346,0.003484&sll=53.116902,-8.689842&sspn=0.174736,0.445976&t=h&hnear=Louisburgh,+County+Mayo,+Ireland&z=19&layer=c&cbll=53.71235,-9.883154&panoid=N7sNUAs85A6cKcEZeRBE_w&cbp=12,240.39,,0,10.18

Ah. That looks a lot more ambiguous than the junction I am thinking of.

The "main" road your person is on in the link looks to be a secondary road, what are the road names? R/N, both R's?

CiniO

Stheno wrote: »

Ah. That looks a lot more ambiguous than the junction I am thinking of.

The "main" road your person is on in the link looks to be a secondary road, what are the road names? R/N, both R's?

Looking at google maps looks like path of blue car seems to be R road.
The road ending at yield sign is L road.

But there's no way of knowing it when driving there, except if you checked the maps beforehand.

Also this is just an example.
I can think of few more examples of such junctions.

djimi

CiniO wrote: »

That's real.
Here's a link from point of view of blue car.

Is there a yield sign on that road?

In that instance, from the point of view of the blue car I would approach that junction assuming that the main road was the road running left to right. Common sense would tell me that I am approaching a T junction and to yield to traffic coming from either side.

CComPtr

Without road markings, how does blue know he has right of way over traffic coming from his left?

locohobo

How can it be assumed its a junction of equal importance when road from LHS has yield sign. Blue car is following course of priority road so if red car wants to take right turn onto minor road he must first yield to oncoming traffic, Blue car

CiniO

djimi wrote: »

Is there a yield sign on that road?

There is a yield sign as on the picture. It might be about 20 metres before the junction, but it's definitely there.

In that instance, from the point of view of the blue car I would approach that junction assuming that the main road was the road running left to right. Common sense would tell me that I am approaching a T junction and to yield to traffic coming from either side.

That's true. Blue car can't really know that he is on main road, as there was no road signs indicating for him that he is on main road which turns right.
But by that logic, he would need to give way to car coming from his left (if there was one) as well, if he assumed he is coming at T junction from the bottom of T letter to main road. And then we would have two cars standing both yielding to each other, as imaginary car coming from the left, would has yield sign.

djimi

CComPtr wrote: »

Without road markings, how does blue know he has right of way over traffic coming from his left?

It doesnt (unless it can see the yield/stop sign), which is why in reality anyone with sense would just treat it as a T junction and stop/yield rather than just plough on through!

Ded_Zebra

The blue car has right of way IMO as they are continuing straight on the main road. The red is turning right onto a minor road.

Proceed with caution though as both will probably think they have right of way.

another crappy Irish road :rolleyes:

CiniO

locohobo wrote: »

How can it be assumed its a junction of equal importance when road from LHS has yield sign. Blue car is following course of priority road so if red car wants to take right turn onto minor road he must first yield to oncoming traffic, Blue car

But how do blue and red car drivers know that main road goes over the bend (not straight) ?

djimi

CiniO wrote: »

There is a yield sign as on the picture. It might be about 20 metres before the junction, but it's definitely there.

Sorry, youre right. Its quite a way back from the junction so I didnt see it initially.

CiniO wrote: »

That's true. Blue car can't really know that he is on main road, as there was no road signs indicating for him that he is on main road which turns right.
But by that logic, he would need to give way to car coming from his left (if there was one) as well, if he assumed he is coming at T junction from the bottom of T letter to main road. And then we would have two cars standing both yielding to each other, as imaginary car coming from the left, would has yield sign.

Yes, if it was me (in the absence of prior knowledge of the road) I would give way to traffic from both the left and the right. That yield sign is too far back down the left hand road for a car coming from the bottom to see.

locohobo

CiniO wrote: »

But how do blue and red car drivers know that main road goes over the bend (not straight) ?

If blue car was on minor road there would be a yield/stop sign on said road...Absence of sign indicates he is on priority road and has right of way

flazio

Perfect example of the type of road you are referring to.
To be honest, if I was the red car, I'd approach with caution and be prepared to stop, the roads are not of equal importance, for red car the natural course of the road is a sharp left turn, for the blue car natural course of the road is a sharp right, If Blue car t boned Red then it can be argued in court that red crossed blues natural path without care due and consideration.

CiniO

djimi wrote: »

Yes, if it was me (in the absence of prior knowledge of the road) I would give way to traffic from both the left and the right. That yield sign is too far back down the left hand road for a car coming from the bottom to see.

That's if you were driving blue car.


But if you were driving red car - then most likely you would assume that you have right of way over blue car - as you can't see any other signage, and blue car is coming from side road from the left.
Then again, if blue car driver was local, and knew the main road turns, there could have been a little fender bender between blue and red.
Whose fault would that be?

djimi

locohobo wrote: »

If blue car was on minor road there would be a yield/stop sign on said road...Absence of sign indicates he is on priority road and has right of way

Take nothing for granted in this country. I can think of plenty of junctions with no road markings and no signs; just because you dont have a sign doesnt mean one of the other roads does!

CiniO

locohobo wrote: »

If blue car was on minor road there would be a yield/stop sign on said road...Absence of sign indicates he is on priority road and has right of way

AFAIR, rules of the road say that if you approach the T junction from the bottom of T letter, you have to give way to vehicles going straight on the staight road in front of you. There doesn't need to be any yield sign there.

djimi

CiniO wrote: »

That's if you were driving blue car.


But if you were driving red car - then most likely you would assume that you have right of way over blue car - as you can't see any other signage, and blue car is coming from side road from the left.
Then again, if blue car driver was local, and knew the main road turns, there could have been a little fender bender between blue and red.
Whose fault would that be?

Thats where I am not certain. If the yield sign signifies that road as a secondary road, and the main road in fact is the at a 90 degree angle, then the car coming from the right would be crossing the main road to get to the secondary road and would be at fault if they collided with another car on the main road.

Its one of those horrible messy situations that are too common on rural roads. Its why its best to adopt the motto that if in doubt just stop!

Stheno

djimi wrote: »

Its one of those horrible messy situations that are too common on rural roads. Its why its best to adopt the motto that if in doubt just stop!

That's what I do with reference to the road I was talking about. TBH most of the locals have decided that road is the main road, and the fact that it's secondary to the main road is irrelevant to them.

I suspect from an insurance perspective taking your rights and ending in a prang would mean you were liable.

CiniO

djimi wrote: »

Thats where I am not certain. If the yield sign signifies that road as a secondary road, and the main road in fact is the at a 90 degree angle, then the car coming from the right would be crossing the main road to get to the secondary road and would be at fault if they collided with another car on the main road.

Yes. Red car would be crossing the main road, but how is red car driver supposed to know that? That's the tricky part.

Its one of those horrible messy situations that are too common on rural roads. Its why its best to adopt the motto that if in doubt just stop!

My example from my link it's still allright as visibility there is good.
Example which flazio provided seems crazy, as it's completely blind bend there as well.

locohobo

CiniO wrote: »

AFAIR, rules of the road say that if you approach the T junction from the bottom of T letter, you have to give way to vehicles going straight on the staight road in front of you. There doesn't need to be any yield sign there.

On straight road in front of you if your coming off a minor road...
That been said on such roads I doubt anyone would be mad enough to be doing such excessive speed so as not be able to stop if a car is seen to be in the wrong and impinging on right of way.
Resulting in..
Quote...
Perfect example of the type of road you are referring to.
To be honest, if I was the red car, I'd approach with caution and be prepared to stop, the roads are not of equal importance, for red car the natural course of the road is a sharp left turn, for the blue car natural course of the road is a sharp right, If Blue car t boned Red then it can be argued in court that red crossed blues natural path without care due and consideration.

CComPtr

CiniO wrote: »

Yes. Red car would be crossing the main road, but how is red car driver supposed to know that? That's the tricky part.

This is what convinces me a single yield sign can't be enough for the left road to become a minor road; there surely has to be something to indicate it to the other roads too.

djimi

CiniO wrote: »

Yes. Red car would be crossing the main road, but how is red car driver supposed to know that? That's the tricky part.

In the absence of a white line down the middle of the road, or any road markings on the secondary road, there isnt really any way to know I guess.

Im not sure how it would work when it comes to insurance tbh; given the conditions could a case be made for the situation not being clear? Could you also claim that the other driver was also in the same boat and did not yield to what would have looked to them to be a T junction? I doubt it, but Id be interested to see how they would rule all the same.

CiniO

locohobo wrote: »

Quote...
Perfect example of the type of road you are referring to.
To be honest, if I was the red car, I'd approach with caution and be prepared to stop, the roads are not of equal importance, for red car the natural course of the road is a sharp left turn, for the blue car natural course of the road is a sharp right, If Blue car t boned Red then it can be argued in court that red crossed blues natural path without care due and consideration.

See.
But even in that example you can see by the surface that main road turns by 90 degrees.
But if there was a junction where you can't see it by surface, or f.e. surface is covered in snow or sth, then red car has no really any way of knowing that main road turns left for him.