Chief Inspector's Report

kensiemac

Hi,
I read with great interest the Chief Inspector's 2010-2012 report. Overall it appears that the results are generally satisfactory. Let's take a look at primary school, since this is where students acquire basic skills, and where their scholarly fate is imprinted. For incidental inspections the results are as follows:


English
Learning outcomes: 87 percent satisfied
Teaching approach: 86 percent satisfied

Mathematics
Learning outcomes: 87 percent satisfied
Teaching approach: 85 percent satisfied

Irish
Learning outcomes: 76 percent satisfied
Teaching approach: 80 percent satisfied

While it looks generally good, it is also a bit worrying. Let's crunch some numbers for maths.

Percent dissatisfied: 15 percent
Number of Lessons Sampled: 1303
Number of Dissatisfied Lessons = (.15 * 1303) = 195 lessons

Given that the inspections were carried out on a fifth of lessons (21.6 percent), we can there are approximately 975 less than satisfactory lessons during the sample teachers. For a knowledge economy this is quite worrying. Arguably there is a funding effect, but there is also a bad teacher effect.

Discuss.

evolving_doors

There's an appalling lack of 'bad teacher' threads at the moment over HERE , I'd say you'll probably find what your looking for there right now

Don't forget to mention the Summer Holidays...

EDIT: Sorry looks like you were beaten to it this time HERE ... Give it a month before it all dies down and you might get in there first.

kensiemac

I'm sorry but I posted a legitimate thread to discuss the report

This was not a teacher bashing thread...

Powerhouse

kensiemac wrote: »

This was not a teacher bashing thread...

Nonsense. That's exactly what it was. You have posted fifteen times since registering under your user-name on boards very recently, and fourteen of your posts have related to teaching, most of which were under the thread called 'teachers not up to it' (or something along those lines) on one of the malcontent forums. Your own contribution included the following gem 'Tis not the system. The system is fine. The DoE is blamed too often.'

At least you have something in common with Ruairí Quinn - he also read the report with 'great interest' as you seem at pains to tell all and sundry. 'Not a teacher bashing thread'...pull the other one, it's got bells on it! :rolleyes:

whiteandlight

You state that "arguably there is a funding effect but also a bad teacher effect".

There is nothing in your OP that in any way leads to this conclusion. This leads me to believe the thread is only going one direction.

In addition laughing at the fact that there has been no reply here on after hours when this is a relatively quiet forum does not paint you on the best light.

evolving_doors

Ok fair enough...

First of all ..if 85% of my students were satisified after one lesson then I can work on the other 15% for the subsequent lesson. Is this follow up taken into account. Don't forget they are hopping from school to school one day after another (incidental inspections). this is not a longitudinal study in one school. Is it expected that 100% of my students are supposed to be satisified with every lesson?
Have a look into the UK debate on 'Edutainment' where teachers have to be like court jesters to try and maintain students interest. Hence the recent call for a return to more formal assessment on the academic aspect of the GCSE's as opposed to the continuous assessment path RQuinn is pushing us down. he can cite China and Nordic education all he wants but he knows damn well he simply cant get these type of 'outcomes' whilst at the same time engaging in cutbacks and a destruction of the teaching profession.

Next.. have a look at how they intend to 'reform' education..."to listen to the voices of a large sample of students and parents when we conduct more
intensive inspections of schools " (Pg. 18). Is the voice of the teacher ever surveyed? I know during our Inspection the Inspector popped into my class, had a quick nod and a wink after and never actually asked me any opinion of the issues surrounding my topic/subject/class.. anything really... teachers voice never really matters in these reports. Have a listen to any media debates.. Is there ever a teacher actually on the panel, (Enda kenny, Pat Kenny or Micheal Martin only dipped their toes in about 30 years ago btw).
Have a look over on the JCert thread on an actual consultation process with science teachers (by online survey). The survey is heavily skewed to push an agenda, some of the questions push for one response.
I've scanned the report as much as I can but I'm finding it really difficult to find any real consultation process with teachers taking place here.

Finally... have a look at the introduction which attempts to gloss over the problems within the education system..again, nothing about the deterioration in the actual pay and conditions of teachers...does it not matter that there has been a mass exodus of experienced teachers ..who's full time posts have been split between 2 and 3 teachers on a part time ad-hoc basis...

Have a read of the headings again below. It reads like a party political broadcast on behalf of Ruairi Quinn

1. THE CONTEXT IN WHICH WE WORK: THE IRISH SCHOOL SYSTEM 2010-2012
1.1 Understanding the context
1.2 The number of students in schools and centres for education grew while teacher numbers
remained more or less the same
1.3 Spending on education rose slightly in the period and expenditure per student on early
childhood, primary and post-primary education was above the OECD average in 2010
1.4 Despite financial pressures, measures were taken to protect teaching and learning in schools
1.5 Financial and staffing measures impacted on schools and centres for education
1.6 Funding and supports for DEIS schools continued and were evaluated
1.7 Spending on additional resources to support students with special educational needs
represented about 15% of all education spending
1.8 Significant changes occurred in the leadership and staffing of schools
1.9 The Department continued to fund a range of support services to schools though the
spending on these services was curtailed
1.10 Substantial investment was made in expanding and improving school infrastructure
1.11 An ambitious programme of reform in education was initiated in the 2011-2012 period

15% dissatisfied for maths isn;t actually bad..Does Ireland need 100% of it's citizens to be engineers etc? Would it be really so bad that this 15% might find greater satisfaction in the arts subjects. Take a similar survey in any country and you would probably find 15% dissatisfied with the lesson too. You just can;t please all of the students all of the time.

From my reading the report hasn;t really anything to add. Who is the report aimed at? Did any teachers read it..how many parents would have read it... how many students would have read the report?

So really, I'm loathe to extrapolate any inference of Bad teaching taking place based on an inspector popping into one class then jumping into a car and popping into another. Also going on 5-12 year olds 'ratings' on a lesson doesn;t really portray the full picture... the inspectorate should have just clicked onto ratemyteachers.com and never left the office.

Discuss

dambarude

As a primary school teacher the findings in relation to the teaching of Irish align with what I would have expected. I'm glad that attention has been drawn to the lack of Irish proficiency among some members of the profession. Colleges of Education have a lot to answer for on this problem.

RealJohn

Just to echo what dambarude said, and not wanting to seem like I'm attacking primary teachers, having taught in the Gaeltacht during the summer, it's an embarrassment how many students make it out of primary school literally only knowing how to ask to go to the toilet in Irish. I rarely meet primary school teachers who are comfortable having an ordinary conversation with me in Irish. Even teaching in a Gaelcholáiste, the standard of Irish coming from some of the Gaelscoileanna just isn't good enough (which is arguably worse since those students then think that their bad Irish is actually good Irish).

People keep talking about reforming how Irish is taught but in my experience, contrary to what's generally highlighted, the standard of Irish among secondary Irish teachers isn't the real issue. It's the standard of Irish among primary teachers. If a teacher isn't comfortable and proficient in the language they will pass that discomfort on to the students and it's going to be very hard for their secondary teachers to recover their interest, not least because their parents probably have the same attitude and enable their students in their bad attitude to the subject.

There is probably a need at this point to bring in dedicated Irish teachers (and maybe maths teachers) in primary schools in order to correct this problem so as to ensure that future generations will actually have a high enough standard of Irish to actually teach it. How many people finish their schooling with greater proficiency in the European language they've learned for five or six years than in the Irish they've supposedly been learning for thirteen or fourteen? There's something seriously wrong if that's the rule rather than the exception.

Powerhouse

RealJohn wrote: »

it's an embarrassment how many students make it out of primary school literally only knowing how to ask to go to the toilet in Irish.

Indeed, yet according to this survey learning outcomes are being hit 76 per cent of the time in Primary schools. The learning outcomes clearly are not very ambitious.

dambarude

RealJohn wrote: »

People keep talking about reforming how Irish is taught but in my experience, contrary to what's generally highlighted, the standard of Irish among secondary Irish teachers isn't the real issue. It's the standard of Irish among primary teachers. If a teacher isn't comfortable and proficient in the language they will pass that discomfort on to the students and it's going to be very hard for their secondary teachers to recover their interest, not least because their parents probably have the same attitude and enable their students in their bad attitude to the subject.

I wouldn't be so quick to let secondary Irish teachers off the hook- there were problems reported there too.

This report is useful in some ways, but as highlighted above, in many sections it appears to be government spin. It makes me realise how much buy-in is expected of inspectors with government policy.

RealJohn

dambarude wrote: »

I wouldn't be so quick to let secondary Irish teachers off the hook- there were problems reported there too.

Oh I agree and I know that there are more secondary teachers who aren't up to it than there should be too but my point was more that any time there's talk of reform (and Irish is one of the few areas where there is a genuine need for reform in my opinion) it always seems to focus on secondary schools and I think that that misses the main part of the problem entirely.

kensiemac

Musicmental85 wrote: »

You state that "arguably there is a funding effect but also a bad teacher effect".

There is nothing in your OP that in any way leads to this conclusion. This leads me to believe the thread is only going one direction.

In addition laughing at the fact that there has been no reply here on after hours when this is a relatively quiet forum does not paint you on the best light.

Really not a constructive contribution

whiteandlight

Perhaps not but you laughed at us on another board for not replying so I figured it would be polite to tell you why I didnt

kensiemac

Armelodie wrote: »

Ok fair enough...

First of all ..if 85% of my students were satisified after one lesson then I can work on the other 15% for the subsequent lesson. Is this follow up taken into account. Don't forget they are hopping from school to school one day after another (incidental inspections).
this is not a longitudinal study in one school. Is it expected that 100% of my students are supposed to be satisified with every lesson?

RESPONSE: You have misinterpreted the data - it is 15 percent of lessons that are unsatisfactory - not 15 percent of students.


Have a look into the UK debate on 'Edutainment' where teachers have to be like court jesters to try and maintain students interest.

RESPONSE: The issue is engagement, I would think. I'm not familiar with the UK system, but surely the key thing is to relate the material to the students in a way that interests them.

Hence the recent call for a return to more formal assessment on the academic aspect of the GCSE's as opposed to the continuous assessment path RQuinn is pushing us down. he can cite China and Nordic education all he wants but he knows damn well he simply cant get these type of 'outcomes' whilst at the same time engaging in cutbacks and a destruction of the teaching profession.

RESPONSE: Here I fully agree. And I think it is just unrealistic to expect the CA implementation at a time resources are being cut. But why hasn't the union used this as a bargaining chip - engagement in CA in return for more resources. Honestly I think CA can be an opportunity if the unions treat it as such and organize themselves to gain resource concessions.

Next.. have a look at how they intend to 'reform' education..."to listen to the voices of a large sample of students and parents when we conduct more
intensive inspections of schools " (Pg. 18). Is the voice of the teacher ever surveyed? I know during our Inspection the Inspector popped into my class, had a quick nod and a wink after and never actually asked me any opinion of the issues surrounding my topic/subject/class.. anything really... teachers voice never really matters in these reports. Have a listen to any media debates.. Is there ever a teacher actually on the panel, (Enda kenny, Pat Kenny or Micheal Martin only dipped their toes in about 30 years ago btw).
Have a look over on the JCert thread on an actual consultation process with science teachers (by online survey). The survey is heavily skewed to push an agenda, some of the questions push for one response.

RESPONSE: I'm not sure what point you are really making. But I agree there should be an improvement in inspection process

I've scanned the report as much as I can but I'm finding it really difficult to find any real consultation process with teachers taking place here.

RESPONSE: where are the unions?

Finally... have a look at the introduction which attempts to gloss over the problems within the education system..again, nothing about the deterioration in the actual pay and conditions of teachers...does it not matter that there has been a mass exodus of experienced teachers ..who's full time posts have been split between 2 and 3 teachers on a part time ad-hoc basis...

RESPONSE: Again, I think this is where the unions need to be more organized

Have a read of the headings again below. It reads like a party political broadcast on behalf of Ruairi Quinn

1. THE CONTEXT IN WHICH WE WORK: THE IRISH SCHOOL SYSTEM 2010-2012
1.1 Understanding the context
1.2 The number of students in schools and centres for education grew while teacher numbers
remained more or less the same
1.3 Spending on education rose slightly in the period and expenditure per student on early
childhood, primary and post-primary education was above the OECD average in 2010
1.4 Despite financial pressures, measures were taken to protect teaching and learning in schools
1.5 Financial and staffing measures impacted on schools and centres for education
1.6 Funding and supports for DEIS schools continued and were evaluated
1.7 Spending on additional resources to support students with special educational needs
represented about 15% of all education spending
1.8 Significant changes occurred in the leadership and staffing of schools
1.9 The Department continued to fund a range of support services to schools though the
spending on these services was curtailed
1.10 Substantial investment was made in expanding and improving school infrastructure
1.11 An ambitious programme of reform in education was initiated in the 2011-2012 period

15% dissatisfied for maths isn;t actually bad..Does Ireland need 100% of it's citizens to be engineers etc? Would it be really so bad that this 15% might find greater satisfaction in the arts subjects. Take a similar survey in any country and you would probably find 15% dissatisfied with the lesson too. You just can;t please all of the students all of the time.

From my reading the report hasn;t really anything to add. Who is the report aimed at? Did any teachers read it..how many parents would have read it... how many students would have read the report?

So really, I'm loathe to extrapolate any inference of Bad teaching taking place based on an inspector popping into one class then jumping into a car and popping into another. Also going on 5-12 year olds 'ratings' on a lesson doesn;t really portray the full picture... the inspectorate should have just clicked onto ratemyteachers.com and never left the office.

evolving_doors

kensiemac wrote: »

Really not a constructive contribution

So what is your own contribution ...something about Unions and thats it...do you agree or disagree with any of the discussions following your bland statement of ' worry' for the knowledge economy?

Why do you care anyway...do you work in the education system? Do you have kids in the education system? Or did you go to school one time?

I think that discussion on AH is starting to run out of steam, now is your chance to get in there and relay your 'worry for the knowledge economy'.

kensiemac

Armelodie wrote: »

So what is your own contribution ...something about Unions and thats it...do you agree or disagree with any of the discussions following your bland statement of ' worry' for the knowledge economy?

Why do you care anyway...do you work in the education system? Do you have kids in the education system? Or did you go to school one time?

I think that discussion on AH is starting to run out of steam, now is your chance to get in there and relay your 'worry for the knowledge economy'.

Did you see my opening analysis? I did an analysis, which no one has commented upon, apart from implicitly calling me a troll.

Yes, I work in the education sector.

Are you not worried?

whiteandlight

The "dissatisfaction" rate gives us nothing to discuss. We don't know why they were considered unsatisfactory or what would improve them. Without that crucial information it could just as easily be "what the children at for breakfast made them hyper" as "there wasn't enough equipment/funding" or "the teacher was unprepared".

kensiemac

Musicmental85 wrote: »

The "dissatisfaction" rate gives us nothing to discuss. We don't know why they were considered unsatisfactory or what would improve them. Without that crucial information it could just as easily be "what the children at for breakfast made them hyper" as "there wasn't enough equipment/funding" or "the teacher was unprepared".

Ok. I think that is a reasoned argument. Given the lack of data, what is your own hypothesis regarding the rate of dissatisfaction?

whiteandlight

i've no interest in hypothesising when there isn't enough information. Hypothesis are usually formed when one is going off to test the hypothesis. I won't be testing it so its a pointless exercise with nothing to back it up

kensiemac

I just went back to the report, which provides a lot of information for the lack of satisfaction with certain lessons. In fact there is very useful information provided.

Woyld you like that I summarize?

seavill

kensiemac wrote: »

I just went back to the report, which provides a lot of information for the lack of satisfaction with certain lessons. In fact there is very useful information provided.

Woyld you like that I summarize?

Yes

kensiemac

Well problems in preparation, assessment, and teaching approaches seemed to be the most recurrent issues

seavill

kensiemac wrote: »

Well problems in preparation, assessment, and teaching approaches seemed to be the most recurrent issues

Any specific quotes just to give a context

Powerhouse

kensiemac wrote: »

Did you see my opening analysis? I did an analysis, which no one has commented upon, apart from implicitly calling me a troll.

Yes, I work in the education sector.

Are you not worried?

With respect, that was not an analysis. It was a statement of a series of statistics gleaned directly or easily inferred from a report.

An analysis answers the 'why' questions. The only deviance from the basic report-findings your showed was to go from stating at the beginning that the figures were actually fairly good to, by the end of your post, finding it all 'quite worrying'.

We got the raw stats and we took note of your oscillating opinion on it all. But you certainly provided no analysis, as I understand the term at any rate. It takes more than sprinkling your dialogue with a few specious phrases about the 'knowledge economy' to provide analysis.