Property tax - property ID

rye_212

I haven't gotten any letter as mentioned in media reports, but I want to login and tell them how I will pay next years tax.

The login page is asking for ppsn and property id. I paid my 2013 tax back in May, online, can't find any confirmation email from them, can't remember if I got a letter. I definitely didn't get a letter in advance of paying.

Do you know how were the property IDs communicated? I've sent them an email but I'd imagine they will be a little busy this week to get to answering email, given the current hoha.:) As far as I can understand, they need to hear from me by Nov 7th about payment plans.

Ogham

Don't panic - they won't do anything if you don't tell them by Nov 7th. Wait for a letter, relax.

RichieO

From what I picked up, if you want to pay by credit or debit card, then you have pay it straight away and it's taken from your account straight away, i.e. before Nov 7th, which I think is very unfair, in fact a roit phucking cheek...

allthedoyles

We didn't get the letter yet either

Ogham

RichieO wrote: »

From what I picked up, if you want to pay by credit or debit card, then you have pay it straight away and it's taken from your account straight away, i.e. before Nov 7th, which I think is very unfair, in fact a roit phucking cheek...

Just tell them you will be paying by installments - and then pay it in 2014. You have until Dec 2014 to pay it all. Just log in and say you will pay by installments to stop them chasing you - then pay over the year or in one go if you want (when you have the money).

see here http://www.moneyguideireland.com/paying-the-property-tax-how-and-when.html

rye_212

RichieO wrote: »

From what I picked up, if you want to pay by credit or debit card, then you have pay it straight away and it's taken from your account straight away, i.e. before Nov 7th, which I think is very unfair, in fact a roit phucking cheek...

It's my understanding that this is incorrect, you do NOT have to pay by credit card straight away. You just have to confirm your payment option straight away. You can then go back some other more convenient time, but before 21st March next year, and make the actual credit card payment.

I had a look at other parts of their LPT website, and usefully, they include 3 sample letters that are being issued.
http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/lpt/lpt-obligations-2014.html

From those samples and the related info, a number of things are clear:
1. The PropertyID's and PINS that are needed to login are provided in the letter
2. The deadline for confirming your 2014 payment option for people who want to provide that confirmation online is 27 Nov 2013.

My own conclusion is that they probably initially sent letters to those who need to confirm their payment option by 7th Nov. Since I paid online last year, they probably included me in a later round of letters. Since the hoohah of the last 2 weeks, I suppose they have deferred those letters now until after the head, Josephine whatsit, gets her berating from the Oireachtas committee on Thursday.

What has confused people is the message from revenue that IF you do pay by credit card now, you WILL be charged immediately. But that message was un-necessary. That's how credit cards work. Its like telling us that IF you breathe air, then you WILL get oxygen in your mouth.

It would have been less confusing if they had let that un-necessary statement out of their communications. According to Morning Ireland there is an ad in todays papers again "explaining how credit cards work".

Indeed, one would also wonder why they require everyone to provide confirmation-of-payment-method at all. I think the only people that have to decide now how they will pay are those that will pay in installments, so that they ensure it is setup from 1st Jan. Everyone else just has to pay by the payment deadline, which I think is 21st March.

By the way, I posed my OP because I had little confidence that the revenue would get around to replying to my Sunday email with the same questions. But in fact they did reply on Monday and said they could give me the details over the phone if I didn't get a letter.

I'm impressed that they managed to get back to me, I'm sure they were very busy with a flood of the same question from others.

I'm now gonna wait a few more weeks to see if the letter arrives.

Bichon Lover

My friend who lives in the North but has a house down here cannot pay the LPT.

He does not have a PPSN which was not a problem last time but now he cannot login to the LPT system and has been told he has
> to provide additional information although not what or how, and
> must pay by debit/credit card

Do the Revenue really want to collect money from non-residents?

lm01

I'm in the same boat. Considering the deadline for paper submissions is Nov 7th, you wouldn't want to be paying by post if they haven't sent out details by Nov 5th! At this rate I'll be lucky if I can make the electronic Nov 27th deadline.

I got no confirmation email from them when I paid (by card, I don't think they're writing to those who paid by Direct Debit, as they already have your details and will simply take the money from your account on March 21) in May, and I can't seem to locate the letter I got then with the property ID and PIN, so I have no means to log in and pay it. Not that I should be paying it, considering that it's not due until next year...

I know the government in this country can be a bit farcical, but I've never seen anything as badly handled as this tax, from customer service to planning to implementation, right down to the level of coding.

Apart from the paying-early debacle and the ridiculously complicated due date system, note that there's no option to add a new property once you're logged in. You have to call them to do that manually, and they're unable to handle it at the LPT helpline so you have to be referred to head office for them to manage it. Wait times on the helpline can be upwards of 40 minutes, and then you have to wait yet again when you get through to head office. No direct line to head office can be given out, so you have to go through the wait period for the helpline even when they have already told you that they are not able to help.

My sister spent three hours on the phone to them over the course of four days last week before trying to get her new house added to her account. When they finally did mange to add it, some coding screwup meant that it went in three times and was marked as paid for all of them, so she had to call them back yet again. The matter has still not been resolved, so as it stands now, we are both in the position of being unable to pay our property tax even though we are stupid enough to be willing to do so! Unbelievably badly handled.

If the letter doesn't come in the next couple of days I'm going to have to ring them, because I doubt they'll be willing to give out that PIN over the phone, and it'll take a while for the letter to come out. I'd prefer not to miss the Nov 27th deadline and have them breathing down my neck though no real fault of my own.

Did yours turn up yet, Rye1967?

rye_212

No, no letter has appeared yet. The email response indicated that I could call them for login info if I didnt get the letter. I am assuming they mean that they can give me both property id and pin.

The_Bot

Bichon Lover wrote: »

My friend who lives in the North but has a house down here cannot pay the LPT.

He does not have a PPSN which was not a problem last time but now he cannot login to the LPT system and has been told he has
> to provide additional information although not what or how, and
> must pay by debit/credit card

Do the Revenue really want to collect money from non-residents?

He should already be registered for income tax and be returning the rental income and expenses on an annual basis through a Form 11 tax return. Hence, he should have a PPS number for this purpose.

If he hasn't been doing this, Revenue are likely to figure this out if they follow through on LPT compliance (or non-compliance as the case may be). It might take some time put they catch up eventually.

In answer to your question, yes of course Revenue want to collect LPT from non-residents. There no basis for exempting non-residents for LPT.

Voodoo_rasher

Lets face it. Revenue rather force us to pay it on-line so they can have our

bank a/c details, hence giving us little time to pay it in other ways. And not

sending us out letters is their sneaky way of doiing this.

Why wait for letters/forms from them; can't yous simply pick up the LPT1A

forms in yr local tax office, library. Keep the drongos in Revenue up to their

oxters in paperwork.

And why the heck is the LPT1A form not available as a pdf download from revenue.ie. That is also sneaky!

mcbert

Voodoo_rasher wrote: »

Why wait for letters/forms from them; can't yous simply pick up the LPT1A

forms in yr local tax office, library. Keep the drongos in Revenue up to their

oxters in paperwork.

And why the heck is the LPT1A form not available as a pdf download from revenue.ie. That is also sneaky!

I just rang to get my property id, never got one in the post. Yes, cant find LPT1A form anywhere online either.

Are you sure it is available in local libraries??

Or if I still haven't got form in time, I might try to doctor the sample form that is online, to remove the word 'sample'. Hmmm. I'll see your sneaky, and raise you another sneaky!

mcbert

Ok, got it!

To get an online copy of LPT1 form do the following

Install LibreOffice 4.1
Download the sample LPT1 form called sample-form-lpt1.pdf You can simply google that filename name.
Open the above sample pdf file in LibreOffice
It seems to automatically remove the 'SAMPLE' watermark in the document, so nothing to do there.
Remove the PIN field, since that isnt a real one.
Change to your own Property Id.
Change to your own address.
Fill in the rest.

Done.

If you don't have a property Id, they can give you one over the phone.

Voodoo_rasher

McBert "Or if I still haven't got form in time, I might try to doctor the sample form that is online, to remove the word 'sample'. Hmmm. I'll see your.../! "

"Are you sure it is available in local libraries??"

Someone is looking into that for me. Well done. Print off a number of them for family - you'll be well liked. R#venue are rail-roading ppl into paying on-line judgiing by what i saw on my 2014 log-in. There will be no forms posted out i'd say.

mcbert

Voodoo_rasher wrote: »

McBert "Or if I still haven't got form in time, I might try to doctor the sample form that is online, to remove the word 'sample'. Hmmm. I'll see your.../! "

"Are you sure it is available in local libraries??"

Someone is looking into that for me. Well done. Print off a number of them for family - you'll be well liked. R#venue are rail-roading ppl into paying on-line judgiing by what i saw on my 2014 log-in. There will be no forms posted out i'd say.

I just called into the Ilac library - no forms there. And its a fairly big, equipped library in the city center, so if it doesnt have them, I suspect other libraries wont have them either.

rye_212

Lets download a generic doc, install some software, edit the documents, ring for the property ID, go to the tax office, ring the library ... ie do loads of work "so as to keep the Revenue up to their oxters in paperwork".

WHAT? Where is this thread going?

As Sweet Brown says "Aint nobody got no time fo' that" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGxwbhkDjZM.

Among other things, we pay the salaries of the tax office staff so the less work there is to do, the less of them that are required to be paid.

We have to pay this property tax one way or another. For me, online is the way of minimal effort. For others who want to pay with coins over the counter, that option is available also.

Ain't got no time for conspiracy theories either. If revenue plan not to issue letters to certain categories of taxpayers then those taxpayers will not have their property ID's. So they will have to phone to get them. That makes more work. If there is a plan not to write to all taxpayers, then I expect that to have been revealed in the extensive media coverage ... or todays Oireachtas hearings.

Ultimately Revenue want everyone to be aware of the 2014 bill and decide now how and when they will pay. That has been achieved in spades, in spite of their ill-conceived letter. Job done.

mcbert

For me at least, nothing to do with keeping them busy, or conspiracy theories, its as simple as this:

Ive not yet got any letter from them, and I want to get the return in before the deadline on the 14th. I've got the property id now that I rang them, but no pin or return form until I get something in the post from them.

So using the edited sample form, I can now be sure to get my return in on time, but if I wait for the post, it'll be tight, and could easily miss the deadline.

rye_212

mcbert wrote: »

For me at least, nothing to do with keeping them busy, or conspiracy theories, its as simple as this:

Ive not yet got any letter from them, and I want to get the return in before the deadline on the 14th. I've got the property id now that I rang them, but no pin or return form until I get something in the post from them.

So using the edited sample form, I can now be sure to get my return in on time, but if I wait for the post, it'll be tight, and could easily miss the deadline.

Ok. That sounds like the same boat as me. Waiting for letter. I could ring them to get the prop id but that is no use if they need to write to me with the PIN anyhow.

I believe the "confirm payment by cash etc" deadline has been extended from 7th Nov to 14th Nov. Of course you can't do anything no matter what deadline, if they don't send you a letter with a PIN in it. I will pay online so deadline is 27th.

Voodoo_rasher

They're getting a postal order no matter what, with property id writ on the reverse. NO form filled up accompany it if needs be, as they did not send out a form and/or letter.

Yes, let them have ample paper work up to their oxters -

1/ Freedom of Information no longer entitles you access to information if it exists ONLY on paper,

as opposed to a database. Only fair that it works both ways.

2/ They are rail-roading pple into paying via the methods THey (R#venue) want and those methods only.

3/ They are assuming that broadband is widespread all over Ire. and that things can be done instamatically (sic) here.

Revenue also too conflict-scared/ confused to announce to the population
that on-line payment is compulsory; with out the paper form its de facto compulsory now. They could have said as much.
So Rye67 don't be an apologist sap for them.

The_Bot

Voodoo_rasher wrote: »

They're getting a postal order no matter what, with property id writ on the reverse. NO form filled up accompany it if needs be, as they did not send out a form and/or letter.

Yes, let them have ample paper work up to their oxters -

1/ Freedom of Information no longer entitles you access to information if it exists ONLY on paper,

as opposed to a database. Only fair that it works both ways.

2/ They are rail-roading pple into paying via the methods THey (R#venue) want and those methods only.

3/ They are assuming that broadband is widespread all over Ire. and that things can be done instamatically (sic) here.

Revenue also too conflict-scared/ confused to announce to the population
that on-line payment is compulsory; with out the paper form its de facto compulsory now. They could have said as much.
So Rye67 don't be an apologist sap for them.

What a load of nonsense, as if Revenue give two ****s about one, two, 100 or one thousand people sending in what you propose to send them. Have you no sense of the size of the organisation and the amount of paperwork they process each week (never mind any LPT paperwork)? Talk about a needle in a haystack.

They will probably hold on to the postal order and you'll get back a letter telling you to fill out the form correctly or complete the return online, they won't waste their time tying to figure it out for you.

The self-assessed nature of the LPT seems to have completely gone over your head. You are required to submit a LPT return whether you got a form, letter or not. If that means you have to chase down the property ID etc then that's on you and not Revenue. If you want to make some puny and futile protest against that, then I suggest you start with the persons responsible for drafting the LPT legislation, being the Minister and Department of Finance.

rye_212

lm01 wrote: »

...
My sister spent three hours on the phone to them over the course of four days last week before trying to get her new house added to her account. When they finally did mange to add it, some coding screwup meant that it went in three times and was marked as paid for all of them, so she had to call them back yet again. The matter has still not been resolved, so as it stands now, we are both in the position of being unable to pay our property tax even though we are stupid enough to be willing to do so! Unbelievably badly handled.
...

And now, based on todays news, if your sister was trying add a property which she had purchased in 2013, she is not even required to pay tax on it due to the legislative foul-up re first time buyers. A situation which the revenue were aware of since July. But didn't bother to tell anyone.

I don't often condemn state institutions, but their handling of this tax seems to be a right farce.

Still no letter for me either. I will have to call them next week to find out if I am getting one. Dreading hanging on the line, competing with the property purchasers.

rye_212

I note from their website that they extended their helpline hours to 8pm last Weds, Thurs, Fri.

I'm gonna try calling them after 6 next week, might still be open.
http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/lpt/contact-details.html

mcbert

rye1967 wrote: »

And now, based on todays news, if your sister was trying add a property which she had purchased in 2013, she is not even required to pay tax on it due to the legislative foul-up re first time buyers. A situation which the revenue were aware of since July. But didn't bother to tell anyone.

Wow. Just heard about this now. Although now exempt, they still do expect everyone to complete a return. No tax to be paid but the form still to be sent in, in time for I presume the same deadlines.

oodles19

rye1967 wrote: »

Ok. That sounds like the same boat as me. Waiting for letter. I could ring them to get the prop id but that is no use if they need to write to me with the PIN anyhow.

I believe the "confirm payment by cash etc" deadline has been extended from 7th Nov to 14th Nov. Of course you can't do anything no matter what deadline, if they don't send you a letter with a PIN in it. I will pay online so deadline is 27th.

If you have a ppsn attached to a property they will give you both your property id and pin over the phone, there's apparently some people experiencing issues with not receiving a letter for various reasons

rye_212

So I called them this evening

18:54: called them
1 min of info on the system, the options, the payment options, the website, as gaeilge, etc
Finally system options, pressed Option 4
7 mins waiting to get through to a person
10 second conversation:
Me: I didn't get my letter
Them: Do you have your property Id
Me: No, I would expect to get that from the letter, I didn't get a letter
Them: How did you pay in 2013
Me: Laser
Them: Ok, will transfer you to head office to re-issue the letter
Me: But the email response said that they could give me my prop id and PIN over the phone
Them: Do you have your PPS number, then yes head office can do that that, transferring
19:04 Transferred to Head office line
12 mins wait time advised,
12 mins waiting, then a new queue with "please hold and your call will be answered in rotation"
19:25: 9 mins later, answered
Gave PPS/name and got ID and PIN
They confirmed that a letter was sent to my address on 18th October. Not sure why I didn't get that or if I got it an lost it.
Logged in successfully.
I have 2 properties to pay for - so cannot use payment provider.
Don't want to have it deducted at source
Don't want to have a standing order bank debit as it would have to be changed if my properties changed hands

So my option is provide bank details for single debit authority, which will be taken on 21st March
OR pay by credit/debit card, but must provide card details (cannot say "will pay by credit card"). And when you provide card details, you charged straight away, naturally.

***********
Thus, if you are paying by card, you must provide info of payment by 27th Nov, and since the card will be charged immediately, you will have to pay by 27th Nov.
So whoever commented on my OP was correct, credit card payers end up paying 2014 tax in 2013.
Despite Minister Noonan saying that he wanted people to pay in 2014. Presumably he doesn't want people paying by credit card then, for some reason. So they ARE giving contradictory messages.
************
There was no clear info on what sanction would be applied if I didn't specify a payment option by 27th Nov.
I could risk it, but I then have to pay by 1st Jan 2014. If lots of other people are also paying on that date, the system might crash. I mightn't even have online access on 1st Jan.

So my choice is either pay now by credit card or give them my bank details and be charged on 21st March.

Am I really that unusual in wanting to pay it from my card like the TV license, the other one-off annual payments?

19:37 Call ended - Total time on phone 43 mins

Paid.

Carawaystick

The_Bot wrote: »

He should already be registered for income tax and be returning the rental income and expenses on an annual basis through a Form 11 tax return. Hence, he should have a PPS number for this purpose.

If he hasn't been doing this, Revenue are likely to figure this out if they follow through on LPT compliance (or non-compliance as the case may be). It might take some time put they catch up eventually.

In answer to your question, yes of course Revenue want to collect LPT from non-residents. There no basis for exempting non-residents for LPT.

There'd only be rental income if the house was rented out, not if it's a second home.

rye_212

And I thought that it would be simple for me to complete the actual payment process. Silly me, it took exactly 1 hour to get through the rest of it. So total time 2 hours.

The website
* Logged me out in the middle of the process and was very slow when attempted to log in
* Asks you to twice specify what card type you are using to pay
* Auto-checked the "get email confirmation" box and then didn't send me an email
* But most critically, set the status to green "Payment method card" after payment but have since reset all properties back to red "Payment method not setup".

I've called the bank who confirmed that they payments are pending with them. So now there is another email gone to the LPT people.

What a bloody nightmare and waste of my time, and theirs. Fed up.

Bichon Lover

The_Bot wrote: »

He should already be registered for income tax and be returning the rental income and expenses on an annual basis through a Form 11 tax return. Hence, he should have a PPS number for this purpose.

If he hasn't been doing this, Revenue are likely to figure this out if they follow through on LPT compliance (or non-compliance as the case may be). It might take some time put they catch up eventually.

In answer to your question, yes of course Revenue want to collect LPT from non-residents. There no basis for exempting non-residents for LPT.

You have misunderstood his situation.
This is a second home, long term to be a retirement home, but he does NOT get an income from it: in fact, he has no Irish income.
Therefore he does not need or have a PPS number.

The_Bot

Bichon Lover wrote: »

You have misunderstood his situation.
This is a second home, long term to be a retirement home, but he does NOT get an income from it: in fact, he has no Irish income.
Therefore he does not need or have a PPS number.

My apologies. Although he will probably need one eventually, if he ever decides to sell it for Irish Capital Gains Tax purposes or, if it forms part of his estate on his ultimate death, for Irish inheritance tax (CAT) purposes.

Robert McGrath

I know this is a semi-zombie thread but I just wanted to check something that struck me this week.

What exactly is the sanction for missing the 27th November "deadline"?

A deadline is only a deadline if there is some consequence of not meeting it. I don't think the legislation mentions 27th November anywhere so is this purely an arbitrary Revenue-determined deadline? Or alternatively a deadline for availing of the "extended" payment dates if March 2014/monthly DD etc?

The legislation mentions a due date of 1 January 2014, so essentially if you pay in full (by cheque/credit card/cash/lump sum electronic transfer) by then, it seems that there is no sanction possible even if you did not contact Revenue to specify your preferred method before then (IMHO). In other words, if you pay in full by 1st January, the recent "deadlines" are meaningless.

Would welcome any thoughts on this as I am quite willing to be shown to be wrong!

RichieO

R,McG, I believe they left it that way deliberately, if they had a set deadline, (whatever date) everyone would leave the payment until that date, which would probably cause the website to crash under the influx... They are effectively rewarding those that pay the full amount in one shot by making them pay up in advance. It's obvious they would prefer that everyone paid by direct debit or single bank payment.
Also using a credit card incurs an additional charge...