Which Big 4 offer should I accept

Beflan

Hi All. First time poster but long time reader and got some good insights from others so thanks for that.

I got 3 offers for audit for the 3 firms I went for (Deloitte, KPMG and PWC). Never got a good vibe about EY for some reason.

I'm trying to decide between all 3 and my gut feeling is for Deloitte at present. Rationale is as below, but would welcome any other views or is there anything I'm missing;
- KPMG and PWC are bigger in Ireland but Deloitte is the largest globally. I asked the partner in Deloitte about this and the rationale is that KPMG is a merger between Andersen (of Enron fame) and KPMG and PWC arose out of PriceWaterhouse and Coopers and Lybrand merging in Ireland. Internationally, Deloitte did not spin off their consulting and advisory practices when others did. He did point out that Deloitte is faster growing in Ireland, which I had also heard elsewhere.
- I liked the Deloitte Academy and training scheme they have and their exam results seem to be good. KPMG also seemed to have a good training scheme but they were quiet on their recent exam success overall and concentrated more on the few people who did well.
- Overall, I liked the people I met in Deloitte and some people who did internships there said the same thing. I didn't do an internship but from speaking to others, they would rank it Deloitte or PWC first, then KPMG.

Given its the next 3.5 years of my life and the start of my career, anything I'm missing?

Aine20

Beflan wrote: »

Hi All. First time poster but long time reader and got some good insights from others so thanks for that.

I got 3 offers for audit for the 3 firms I went for (Deloitte, KPMG and PWC). Never got a good vibe about EY for some reason.

I'm trying to decide between all 3 and my gut feeling is for Deloitte at present. Rationale is as below, but would welcome any other views or is there anything I'm missing;
- KPMG and PWC are bigger in Ireland but Deloitte is the largest globally. I asked the partner in Deloitte about this and the rationale is that KPMG is a merger between Andersen (of Enron fame) and KPMG and PWC arose out of PriceWaterhouse and Coopers and Lybrand merging in Ireland. Internationally, Deloitte did not spin off their consulting and advisory practices when others did. He did point out that Deloitte is faster growing in Ireland, which I had also heard elsewhere.
- I liked the Deloitte Academy and training scheme they have and their exam results seem to be good. KPMG also seemed to have a good training scheme but they were quiet on their recent exam success overall and concentrated more on the few people who did well.
- Overall, I liked the people I met in Deloitte and some people who did internships there said the same thing. I didn't do an internship but from speaking to others, they would rank it Deloitte or PWC first, then KPMG.

Given its the next 3.5 years of my life and the start of my career, anything I'm missing?

In the very same predicament myself its very hard to weigh up options.. As il be moving to dublin for first time area of office would play a part i guess

Aine20

Beflan wrote: »

Hi All. First time poster but long time reader and got some good insights from others so thanks for that.

I got 3 offers for audit for the 3 firms I went for (Deloitte, KPMG and PWC). Never got a good vibe about EY for some reason.

I'm trying to decide between all 3 and my gut feeling is for Deloitte at present. Rationale is as below, but would welcome any other views or is there anything I'm missing;
- KPMG and PWC are bigger in Ireland but Deloitte is the largest globally. I asked the partner in Deloitte about this and the rationale is that KPMG is a merger between Andersen (of Enron fame) and KPMG and PWC arose out of PriceWaterhouse and Coopers and Lybrand merging in Ireland. Internationally, Deloitte did not spin off their consulting and advisory practices when others did. He did point out that Deloitte is faster growing in Ireland, which I had also heard elsewhere.
- I liked the Deloitte Academy and training scheme they have and their exam results seem to be good. KPMG also seemed to have a good training scheme but they were quiet on their recent exam success overall and concentrated more on the few people who did well.
- Overall, I liked the people I met in Deloitte and some people who did internships there said the same thing. I didn't do an internship but from speaking to others, they would rank it Deloitte or PWC first, then KPMG.

Given its the next 3.5 years of my life and the start of my career, anything I'm missing?

In the very same predicament myself its very hard to weigh up options.. As il be moving to dublin for first time area of office would play a part i guess

mgk2004

I only got one application in, which was Deloitte, thankfully I got the offer. I found the partner nice and down to earth we just had a good chat for the interview really about everything and anything, everyone I met was nice in fact. From my research I think they have a slightly better reputation for how they treat their employees which is obviously a plus, still work them very hard I am sure.

Its third biggest in Ireland but growing, second biggest in UK and the biggest in the states as you mentioned (plan on working in the states at some stage, been there for a summer and loved it) Deloitte was Voted second most prestigious last year after PWC, it was first the year before I think. However, big four is big four regards experience for your exit opportunities I think, potential employers will look at your CV and say he/shes from big four, regardless of which one.

The fact that they may treat their employees better would sway me in their direction, its not going to be an easy few years whoever your with.

anyway congrats whomever you pick..

Salmon2013

I too have the same decision to make...
Personally I am swaying more towards PwC/KPMG than Deloitte.
All 3 are essentially the same job, Audit in Dublin. Personally I enjoyed the KPMG interview process the most with PwC following closely behind. I found the partner who interviewed me for Deloitte quite arrogant whereas the KPMG partner was very open and straight talking and the PwC interviewers were tough but nice all the same. Before the interview process if offered any of the four I would've probably went with Deloitte....
I have been talking to someone who has been a client of all four who found PwC to be the most professional and best trained however I think KPMG is still where I got the best gut instinct from.
I really like the 12 week training programme at the start with KPMG which is not on offer from the others. the KPMG business school and Deloitte institute seem to be on par.
I have recieved the KPMG contract but will wait until I receive the other two before making my mind up for sure....

jonnybravo

Where any of ye offered what department you would be going into? If you were guaranted to be going into a department of your choice that'd sway my opinion. I know in PwC you only find out during training.

Beflan

I think if you express a prefernece, they will direct you towards that group and in most of the firms, it appears to be between financial services and normal business.

I wasn;t swayed by the 12 week training programme in KPMG once I found out most of that involves being on the client site on audits which is what the other firms do as well, so I think that was just marketing from their perspective (which I suppose is what they are all doing).

Ju8st thinkikng about it over the wekened and looking through the firms and just notived again that Deloitte were one of the best places to work in Ireland over the past X number of years and that svoted on my the employees. Its only now when I am making the decisiojn that that came back inot my head as another plus. I had been impressed by PWCs graduate recruiter award but Best PLaces to work is probaly more of ap[lus when I thiunk about it.

cson

Beflan wrote: »

I wasn;t swayed by the 12 week training programme in KPMG once I found out most of that involves being on the client site on audits which is what the other firms do as well, so I think that was just marketing from their perspective (which I suppose is what they are all doing).

That's incorrect.

jonnybravo

Beflan wrote: »

I think if you express a prefernece, they will direct you towards that group and in most of the firms, it appears to be between financial services and normal business.

Yes PwC will let you pick your preference but with funds taking up a large percentage of starters most people will end up there even if it isn't their preference. If you prefer to go towards "normal business" and have an offer for one of those departments that would swing me more about what Big 4 offer to accept.

Salmon2013

cson wrote: »

That's incorrect.

I was thinking that alright. Am I right in saying that it is a 12 week training course carried out outside of the office, usually in a hotel in Dublin?

Beflan

Hi Cson,

Happy to get your views on KPMG's training. Once again, what one of is is told could be differnet to what others are told, so good to get everyones views, albeit, I can imagine it couldn't be 3 months in a classroom.

cson

Its 8 weeks off site, 4 weeks on site split into 2-2-4-2-2. The emboldened numbers are the on site weeks. The on site is very useful to prepare you for the reality of the workplace so you won't be coming in cold after 12 weeks of lectures. It is the best induction training available in Ireland in Accountancy firms period.

Beflan

Thanks Cson- is it the HR or marketing department of KPMG you work in? I assume in order to say its the best training, you have undergone training in all the other firms in order to benchmark it.

PeadarCo

Beflan wrote: »

Thanks Cson- is it the HR or marketing department of KPMG you work in? I assume in order to say its the best training, you have undergone training in all the other firms in order to benchmark it.

I say what he means its the most extensive and from talking to some people the amount could be considered excessive but it appears to be geared with CAP1, CAP2 exams in mind. None of the other firms come close in overall time spent in a graduate induction programme. Whether that's a good thing is another issue and would depend on the person.

For overall advice look at what area you'll be working in. Two people can work in the same company and have very different experiences. On a basic level FS audit verus Non FS audit and the different nature of the clients there. If you have the luxury of multiple offers look at what area you might be going into. Look at how that links into what you might want to do after your training contract and what types of companies you'd be interested in working on over the life of the contract.

Ticking and Bashing

Congrats on getting 3 offers! If I was you - I'd call up the HR dept in each of the firms and ask which audit dept you are likely to be assigned to - for example will you be working in Financial Service audit or Non Financial Service audit (i.e industry audits) - which would you prefer? I'd start off there. This will narrow your choice. Then, you might be able to contact someone working in the team you'll be assigned to and get a proper insight into the work they do. This should help with your decision.

I wouldnt base my decision on the training programmes, exam successes, or reputation. Firstly - the training is generally the same and you actually learn more from your co-workers instead of attending classroom type training programmes. Secondly, exam successes can vary amongst firms and that's something that's up to you not the firm! In relation to reputation / growth etc - this is something that could change over your contract! A person really doesnt know...it only takes one audit screw up to ruin a firm's reputation. Don't be thinking too much about it. Find out which which audit dept you'll be assigned to and go from there

Good luck with your decision.

markg86

Dont meant to Hijack but is your salary 21500 for all of them, only have Deloitte one as of yet, PWC was sent to home house.

Also I am doing a masters at the min, doesn't mention this on my contract, I think its 22,500 with masters is it? anyone know. I better ring them.

What Audit department would you like, I was thinking FS but now not so sure.

Dellboy2007

Here's my advice on why you should bite Deloitte's arm off if they offer it to you:

• If you are put into FS audit, which most entrants will be, you will get experience in at least two areas of financial services. Other firms are split up into more sectors, making your experience, depending on the way you want to view it, either more specialised or more pidgeoned hole.
• Half day Fridays during the Summer months as well as Bank Holidays.
• There is a reason they constantly harp on about their employees' well-being and it being such a nice place to work - its because the atmosphere is relaxed and they don't treat their employees like crap.
• PwC is the biggest in Ireland - Guess who are the only ones who you ever hear saying this? People from PwC. No one else gives a toss. Deloitte is the biggest in the world yet you would never hear people from Deloitte boasting about this. Says something about the people in my opinion.
• Anecdotally I don't think people in Deloitte do as much overtime as other firms. That is just my opinion based on my friends.

Auditing is auditing no matter how you cut it, ask yourself how pleasant or how miserable do you want to make it. You have to spend the next three or three and a half years of your life in there, be wise with your decision.

mgk2004

Dellboy2007 wrote: »

Here's my advice on why you should bite Deloitte's arm off if they offer it to you:

• If you are put into FS audit, which most entrants will be, you will get experience in at least two areas of financial services. Other firms are split up into more sectors, making your experience, depending on the way you want to view it, either more specialised or more pidgeoned hole.
• Half day Fridays during the Summer months as well as Bank Holidays.
• There is a reason they constantly harp on about their employees' well-being and it being such a nice place to work - its because the atmosphere is relaxed and they don't treat their employees like crap.
• PwC is the biggest in Ireland - Guess who are the only ones who you ever hear saying this? People from PwC. No one else gives a toss. Deloitte is the biggest in the world yet you would never hear people from Deloitte boasting about this. Says something about the people in my opinion.
• Anecdotally I don't think people in Deloitte do as much overtime as other firms. That is just my opinion based on my friends.

Auditing is auditing no matter how you cut it, ask yourself how pleasant or how miserable do you want to make it. You have to spend the next three or three and a half years of your life in there, be wise with your decision.

Cheers man,, that makes sense to me, its the way id look at it aswel,auditing is auditing and Big 4 is big4.. May aswel go with whoever has the best reputation for treating employees.

About FS or industry though,, I read there is better exit opportunities for industry? is this true. especially if you dont see your self sticking in Public accounting long term?

Beflan

€30k sounds a bit high but if anyone wants to pay e that, I'll join, no questions asked. The party line on salaries appears to be the market rate (no doubt they have some form of agreement with the institute) but after 3 years the salary probably doubles or triples.

Dellboy2007

mgk2004 wrote: »

About FS or industry though,, I read there is better exit opportunities for industry? is this true. especially if you dont see your self sticking in Public accounting long term?

Would have to disagree with that. Qualified Big 4 Financial Services accountants are in high demand. Check out any jobs sections or websites. They are also better paid. :P

It's not unusual for people who trained in FS to then move into a role in industry where as it wouldn't be as common the other way.

Obrieski

Dellboy2007 wrote: »

Would have to disagree with that. Qualified Big 4 Financial Services accountants are in high demand. Check out any jobs sections or websites. They are also better paid. :P

It's not unusual for people who trained in FS to then move into a role in industry where as it wouldn't be as common the other way.

This is something I was wondering, I have a FS offer with EY and a normal business with PwC and none of my friends understand why I'm leaning more towards EY than PwC except I know people in EY who really enjoy it there.
But can the switch from finance to industry be made easily? I don't want to pigeon hole myself one way or the other where I can.

Pain in the a@se having to decide for EY within 7 days, not much time for thinking!

imthegaffer!

I'd make my decision based on the area you want to go into in the future or what interests you.

A person who has trained in FS won't have any real appreciation for the role stock plays in an FMCG company and vice versa default rates on loans won't really be something a consumer trained auditor could discuss with too much knowledge so going forward it's something that could impact you if you try to move out of audit. It's not impossible to do but it's making your life that little bit harder in interviews or getting the interview.

I trained in one of the big 4 in their consumer audit department as this was what I was interested in (not FS). I think if I'd gone to one of the other big 4 with the same attitude and worked with similar skilled people in the same department I'd be in a very similar position to where I am now so I wouldn't say I'm better or worse for training in that specific firm. Also my experience to people in FS has been completely different.

For what it's worth and from my experience, you'll learn far more on the job then you ever will in any classroom.

Basing your choice on Deloitte saying it is bigger than the rest I think is a bit pointless. Sure Deloitte are the biggest this year but I'm fairly sure PwC was the biggest last year also there is a very good chance that PwC will overtake Deloitte again (see news articles on their purchase of Booz recently). Also the margin in revenue between PwC and Deloitte worldwide is tiny, something like a 1% difference this year.

Also if I was an employer in a big multinational, whether you trained with KPMG or EY etc wouldn't bother me as long as they were competent. Working in the big 4 generally means you'll work in a medium to large company if you leave. Everyone in a big4 company will have this experience so companies don't discriminate.

ninty9er

I did CO-OP with a top 10 firm, never saw the appeal of the "big 4". I narrowly, by manner of fate, avoided going down the accounting route, but my career to date tells me you should choose the company which your research (not your feeling about) tells you will provide you with the most opportunity for one-to-one mentoring.

I can't tell you which of the big 4 will provide that, but one is not going to give you much advantage over the other in terms of getting out when you want to, that will be determined by you, and in many instances, the client base of whichever firm you choose.

mgk2004

Obrieski wrote: »

This is something I was wondering, I have a FS offer with EY and a normal business with PwC and none of my friends understand why I'm leaning more towards EY than PwC except I know people in EY who really enjoy it there.
But can the switch from finance to industry be made easily? I don't want to pigeon hole myself one way or the other where I can.

Pain in the a@se having to decide for EY within 7 days, not much time for thinking!

FS audit is not finance.

On a side note,, If you wanted to break into finance afterwards, would it be better to pick FS or industry? I know its difficult either way.

jonnybravo

Moving from FS audit into industry is possible but it can be hard. We're hiring a newly qualified accountant in my company at the moment and we're not considering anyone from FS audit.

Chattastrophe!

I moved from FS Audit to industry with no problems, got plenty of offers. I did leave a Big Four firm mid-contract though - I think, if you want to do it, it's an awful lot easier when you're only part-qualified. Would be difficult to convince someone to take you on on the salary of a fully qualified accountant but with no industry experience.

smcgiff

I doubt anyone specialising in FS Audit would have any trouble getting work after their contract was up.

But it is very specialised. Therefore the work you'll most likely be most suited to and in demand for will be limited.

Personally the attraction to me of accounting was the wide field of opportunities that were opened up, which could lead onto General Management. Who wants to be doing monthly management accounts in the month they retire.

lualua

I am just wondering does anyone have any insights to the big 4 more specific to there Cork offices? I know they all have big clients and will train you well, is there something you should stay away from?

Also, what is Deloitte's study leave and exam revision help like?