FAA officially approves the use of electronic devices during take off and landing

bk

The FAA has just announced that it is going to allow the use of electronic devices during all phases of flight (including take off and landing) and that it will come into effect across the US in the next month:

http://www.theverge.com/2013/10/31/5050468/faa-officially-allowing-electronics-during-all-phases-of-flight

I wonder how long it will take EU regulators to follow suit? It is going to cause a lot of headaches for European airlines and cabin crew as people will just assume the same here too.

It will be very hard for EU airlines to maintain a similar ban in the face of this decision.

coylemj

BBC: Passengers will be able to use gadgets for entire US flights

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-24761329

notharrypotter

FAA is not an international body.

Until ICAO says otherwise the relevant Irish rules are


AIC NR 17/93 - 24 JUN refers

Mobile phones are covered here.

http://www.iaa.ie/safe_reg/iaip/Published%20Files/Circ%20Files/2000/17-00.PDF

jamo2oo9

How does that work on transatlantic flights? If the flight originated from the States, are all devices allowed to be used at all stages until landing in an EU country?

kub

Just imagine being on a t/a flight for 6 hours sitting next to some Stella ringing all her buddies and chatting for the entire flight.

Foggy43

Phone calls remain a no no. No internet until above 10,000 feet. Only difference seems to be is the equipment can be switched on during take off and landing.

BonkeyDonker

Foggy43 wrote: »

Phone calls remain a no no. No internet until above 10,000 feet. Only difference seems to be is the equipment can be switched on during take off and landing.

Going by the number of take-off and landing videos on Youtube and the likes it seems that alot of people were doing the last bit anyway.

Foggy43

BonkeyDonker wrote: »

Going by the number of take-off and landing videos on Youtube and the likes it seems that alot of people were doing the last bit anyway.

Yes! Impossible for the cabin crews to enforce.

ProfessorPlum

jamo2oo9 wrote: »

How does that work on transatlantic flights? If the flight originated from the States, are all devices allowed to be used at all stages until landing in an EU country?

An aircraft has to abide by the rules of the country they are registered in, and of the country they are operating in, if they are more restrictive.
So I guess that would mean in the above scenario, on US registered aircraft, devices not allowed would have to be turned off entering Canadian airspace, and for Irish registered aircraft, would not be allowed at all / turned of for t/o approach and landing as appropriate.

kub

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

An aircraft has to abide by the rules of the country they are registered in, and of the country they are operating in, if they are more restrictive.
So I guess that would mean in the above scenario, on US registered aircraft, devices not allowed would have to be turned off entering Canadian airspace, and for Irish registered aircraft, would not be allowed at all / turned of for t/o approach and landing as appropriate.

So that obviously includes leased aircraft.

ProfessorPlum

kub wrote: »

So that obviously includes leased aircraft.

Is that an honours question?

bk

notharrypotter wrote: »

FAA is not an international body.

Until ICAO says otherwise the relevant Irish rules are


AIC NR 17/93 - 24 JUN refers

Yes, but it will now put massive pressure on Irish and European cabin crews.

When the cabin crew ask people to switch off their device, people will now be rightfully asking why? If it is allowed on the exact same aircraft in the US, why ban it here?

I'll imagine many cabin crew will just turn a blind eye to electronic devices now. Over the last year on many Ryanair flights I've been on, that is pretty much the case already, with them seemingly pretty much ignoring people discreetly using devices. This will just make it more so. However I look forward to it be formalised here.

basill

Yep and people that fly one week with a US carrier and then the next with AL will be saying the same. I pity the poor CCMs that will be getting an earful. The regulators tend to move at a snails pace so don't expect any change this side of the Atlantic for a while.

Dublinflyer

People have been ignoring this rule for years so it is about time really. I wonder how this will work out with airlines request to pay attention to the safety announcement with half the aircraft listening to music!

murphaph

Did this rule ever have a grounding in science? ie was there ever a good reason to ban the use of various electronics in flight?

bk

Dublinflyer wrote: »

People have been ignoring this rule for years so it is about time really. I wonder how this will work out with airlines request to pay attention to the safety announcement with half the aircraft listening to music!

No different then people reading books/newspaper/magazines or using airplugs during the safety announcement.

* I've always find is amusing that some airlines make you take out airplugs during take off and landing. When I question this, they say it is so you can hear safety announcements.

I then ask in that case are deaf and hard of hearing people banned from this airline. Queue embarrassed looks from the cabin crew and they normally continue on their way.

murphaph wrote: »

Did this rule ever have a grounding in science? ie was there ever a good reason to ban the use of various electronics in flight?

Yes, some, much older aircraft, in particular older ones weren't very well shielded and could suffer static interference on the radio etc.

However modern large airliners should be well insulated from such interference and portable electronic devices must pass much stricter guidelines nowadays.

However there is no evidence that electronic devices ever caused an actual accident.

The reality is almost every commercial flight is full of active electronic devices during take off and landing. Most people don't know how to really turn off their phone or ipad. They think just turning off the screen means it is off, when in fact it isn't.

This is obvious when you are on a flight to London, you can hear the "bings" of all the text messages being received as you come into land!

The truth is if electronic devices posed any real threat, you wouldn't have even been allowed to bring them in the cabin.

Delta Kilo

kub wrote: »

So that obviously includes leased aircraft.

Not necessarily. Not all leased aircraft from Irish leasing companies have an Irish registration when on lease. Highly unlikely that an aircraft on lease to an american operator will bear an Irish registration actually for various reasons that I wont go into here.

Generally when a leased aircraft has a "EI" or other reg not of the country the airline is operating in its due to risk. In the event of a reposession its beneficial for the lessor to have the aircraft registered in Ireland or somewhere that makes it easier for them to remove the aircraft. Sometimes its beneficial for the airline in terms of tax.

Tenger

bk wrote: »

* I've always find is amusing that some airlines make you take out airplugs during take off and landing. When I question this, they say it is so you can hear safety announcements.

I then ask in that case are deaf and hard of hearing people banned from this airline. Queue embarrassed looks from the cabin crew and they normally continue on their way.
......

And you think you are being all smart because you made cabin crew look embarrassed......in a emergency if the deaf/hard of hearing passengers are unable to hear the instruction well then it not a nice situation.

You must be great fun at parties with your humorous anecdotes.

bk

Tenger wrote: »

And you think you are being all smart because you made cabin crew look embarrassed......in a emergency if the deaf/hard of hearing passengers are unable to hear the instruction well then it not a nice situation.

In an emergency situation I think it will be very obvious to anyone wearing headphones/airplugs and they will quickly remove them.

The truth is that it was always a pretty petty and bureaucratic requirement with little logic behind it.

As is the case with a great deal of security theatre involved with flying.

basill

As is the case with a great deal of security theatre involved with flying.

Look up the Hudson evacuation videos. That aircraft was ETOPS and had life jackets which is not a requirement for domestic over land flights in the US. They were lucky that they had them. Watch and count the number of people that come out of the aircraft with them inflated. More still left them behind and re-entered the aircraft to get them. Then look on as people dive into the water and then realising how cold the water is clamber back onto the wing.

Its for the above as well as the countless other reasons that safety demos or theatre as you call them are done. Its also the LAW.

Are you really a mod or is that just your handle?

notharrypotter

Yes, but it will now put massive pressure on Irish and European cabin crews.

When the cabin crew ask people to switch off their device, people will now be rightfully asking why? If it is allowed on the exact same aircraft in the US, why ban it here?

America will file a difference with ICAO hence it will allow the operation of electronic devices on US services and possibly on US registered Aircraft.

Until the EU files a difference with ICAO then current legislation holds.

You are not required to like it merely comply.

You don't like the rules then choose a carrier that corresponds with your world view.

Aviation is safe because it takes its time before changing a current safe practice (turn off ALL electronic devices).

Who knows what will ultimately happen, possibly globally it will change or the US will continue to stand alone.

In the mean time I would suggest while on an EU aircraft comply with the current rules and obey the request to turn off your electronic devices.

bk

basill wrote: »

Look up the Hudson evacuation videos. That aircraft was ETOPS and had life jackets which is not a requirement for domestic over land flights in the US. They were lucky that they had them. Watch and count the number of people that come out of the aircraft with them inflated. More still left them behind and re-entered the aircraft to get them. Then look on as people dive into the water and then realising how cold the water is clamber back onto the wing.

Frankly that has nothing to do with this topic. Under an emergency situation you will always have people who panic and do the wrong thing. No number of safety demos will change that, it is simple human nature.

basill wrote: »

Its for the above as well as the countless other reasons that safety demos or theatre as you call them are done. Its also the LAW.

When I was talking about security theatre, I was thinking more of ban on liquids, small knives, etc. Most of which is designed to make people feel safer, rather then add any real extra security.

There are very detailed and interesting articles out there about airline security theatre that I recommend you read. It is a very interesting and enlightening topic.

basill wrote: »

Are you really a mod or is that just your handle?

Yes, I am a mod, not of this particular forum, but of other forums.

And what would that have to do with anything?

I ignored your earlier offensive comment about my social life! I'll remind you that the primary rule of boards.ie is to attack the post, not the poster.

Tenger

bk wrote: »

In an emergency situation I think it will be very obvious to anyone wearing headphones/airplugs and they will quickly remove them.

The truth is that it was always a pretty petty and bureaucratic requirement with little logic behind it.

Lets examine the huge number of noise cancelling headphones you see on public transport.....block out the inflight noises by all means but the petty rule to keep them off for taxi/take-off is to ensure all pax (even the arrogant ones) hear the demo and if necessary any announcements re deviations to normal ops. Have you ever been on a flight were you saw another passenger lose the rag as they were "skipped by the cabin crew" when in fact they were blissfully adrift in their headphone and eyes closed induced haze? about 3 years ago I was onboard a DUB-JFK flight that diverted to Washington due bad winds at JFK....one dude got irate as HE hadn't been informed of this diversion...muppet had been either asleep or oblivious for the 1 hour hoding and 1 hour to divert to IAD...strange how he was the only 1 of approx 300 who hadn't been told

Another consideration is that the leads from headphones may pull pax back if attached or indeed may trip someone up in a hurry to leave. Some airline headphones are designed to snap with any force so they are permitted to be used gate to gate. EG. BA permit pax to use their IFE with the BA in-ear buds from gate to gate...as announcements overide sound and the earbuds will snap if pulled. You may well see this closer to home pretty soon.

I do agree with your point re books in terms of weigh. However they have been allowed as part of the process called "grandfathering"....the idea being that ideally no passenger should be in any way distracted at crucial periods of the flight...however as books have been permitted on flights
since flight began the authorities have deemed to too problematic to ban them at certain times.

bk

Delta and JetBlue have already gotten approval from the FAA and have already started to allow people use electronic devices at all times.

That is just one day after the announcement!!

That is incredibly fast turn around from a government regulator. Hopefully the EU regulators will be as fast.

Tenger

bk wrote: »

Delta and JetBlue have already gotten approval from the FAA and have already started to allow people use electronic devices at all times.

That is just one day after the announcement!!

That is incredibly fast turn around from a government regulator......

It is indeed very fast. I wonder were these airlines pushing for the change and thus ready to act when the announcement was finally made.
I can't see the EU being too fast however.

EDIT: please see below....I have no idea what "LAGs restrictions" mean.....

lord lucan

Tenger wrote: »

I can't see the EU being too fast however.

Considering they've spent the last couple of years promising to reduce and ultimately get rid of LAGs restrictions i don't hold out much hope.

bk

Tenger wrote: »

EDIT: please see below....I have no idea what "LAGs restrictions" mean.....

Liquid, Aerosols and Gels

The EU plan to lift the ban on liquids by 2016, by using advanced technology that scans the liquids for explosives.

The reason for the delay is more to do with the technology not being ready, then the EU.

Type D machines are still in development and not deployed yet.

A Type D machine allows you to leave the liquids in the bag and it can still scan them, obviously the most convenient method.

Type A to C machines do exist, but they are far less convenient and are slower.

Tenger

Oh god yes.....about 2 years of talking about lifting the restrictions so far..........

Now there is a piece of security theatre that does feck all except annoy pax.
I know the 'logic' behind but I just don't think it is justified.

ProfessorPlum

Tenger wrote: »

Oh god yes.....about 2 years of talking about lifting the restrictions so far..........

Now there is a piece of security theatre that does feck all except annoy pax.
I know the 'logic' behind but I just don't think it is justified.

And flight crew in uniform having their liquids over 100mls confiscated because they're a threat to security. Theatre.

kub

bk wrote: »

Delta and JetBlue have already gotten approval from the FAA and have already started to allow people use electronic devices at all times.

That is just one day after the announcement!!

That is incredibly fast turn around from a government regulator. Hopefully the EU regulators will be as fast.

Aren't Jet Blue partners with EI? I imagine so that EI Cabin Crew will probably be one of the first to have to face the music (pardon the pun).

bk

Coming to Europe very soon:

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/nov/01/caa-easa-electronic-devices-flight-take-off-landing

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

No different then people reading books/newspaper/magazines or using airplugs during the safety announcement.

* I've always find is amusing that some airlines make you take out airplugs during take off and landing. When I question this, they say it is so you can hear safety announcements.

I then ask in that case are deaf and hard of hearing people banned from this airline. Queue embarrassed looks from the cabin crew and they normally continue on their way.

I don't think that being smart to employees who are merely implementing their employer's policies is anything to be proud of frankly.

Your issue is with the company policies. Cabin crew have a tough enough job as it is without dealing with this sort of attitude.

bk

lxflyer wrote: »

I don't think that being smart to employees who are merely implementing their employer's policies is anything to be proud of frankly.

Your issue is with the company policies. Cabin crew have a tough enough job as it is without dealing with this sort of attitude.

Though, unless people question stupidity, it will continue.

Just like this electronics ban. It was only because a US senator questioned the stupidity of the electronics ban and kept hounding the FAA, this wouldn't have now changed.

Next we need to get the stupid rules about liquids changed and rules about scissors, nail files, small knives etc. changed.

Dublinflyer

The FAA recently tried lifting the ban on scissors and small knives and the cabin crew unions objected so much and strikes were mentioned so the FAA backed down. I have to admit I agree with them, there is absolutely no rational reason why a person would need a scissors or any sort of knife on board.

bk

Dublinflyer wrote: »

The FAA recently tried lifting the ban on scissors and small knives and the cabin crew unions objected so much and strikes were mentioned so the FAA backed down. I have to admit I agree with them, there is absolutely no rational reason why a person would need a scissors or any sort of knife on board.

The reason is baggage charges.

On the one hand you have Ryanair and their likes who want people to only have cabin luggage and no checked luggage and charge big money for checked luggage.

So if people only have cabin luggage, it isn't surprising that they might want to carry a small scissors, top clippers, nail files or even multitool and penknife on them. All very useful items in day to day life when off on holidays.

But here is where the security theatre comes in, the security people take your nail clippers off you, but you can then walk into duty free and buy a big glass bottle of Vodka!

Have you ever seen a bottle of Vodka smashed against someones head? Or the stabbing instrument from the remaining broken bottle?

A big glass bottle is far more dangerous then eve a penknife.

Never mind that the bottle of vodka can easily be turned into a molotov cocktail (fire bomb).

Or what about the fountain pens often sold in duty free, they make for very effective stabbing tools.

Feck, at some airports then even sell penknives in duty free!!:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2396327/Airport-security-farce-Deadlier-knives-used-9-11-sold-duty-free-taken-London-flight.html

Total security theatre!

The TSA had totally the right idea when they were looking to allow such items on board aircraft.

Dublinflyer

I am not talking about tow clippers of nail files, you are 100% right there as that is ridiculous. But when it comes to scissors and knifes how do you define small and harmless? There are lots of items on an aircraft that could be used as weapons but a line has to be drawn somewhere. If you are going on holidays for any length of time you are going to have checked baggage with you, the airlines are dropping the price of checked in baggage.

It's not just weapons these items can be used for, multitools, knives and scissors can also be used to gain access to locked areas of aircraft such as the flight desk, remove panels etc. I disagree with you that this is theater and anybody who works in aviation will agree with me. I am not saying it is right but I can see the reasoning behind it.

I do think that it was taken too far and there have been many cases of the likes of the TSA just making life difficult for travelers. A lot of their staff in the US can be on a power trip but I have noticed that people are not so afraid of them any more and will speak up, I have done it myself. The TSA are desperately trying to clean up their image so are dealing with agents who lose the run of themselves.

Regardless of the security that is in place anybody who attempts to do anything naughty they will have a plane load of people to handle as well. If anything happens on board pax assume the worst and will no longer just sit there, IMHO. There is no right or wrong in these discussions but there is a group of people high up somewhere who come up with these rules and us mortals have to follow them if we want to fly.

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

Though, unless people question stupidity, it will continue.

Just like this electronics ban. It was only because a US senator questioned the stupidity of the electronics ban and kept hounding the FAA, this wouldn't have now changed.

Next we need to get the stupid rules about liquids changed and rules about scissors, nail files, small knives etc. changed.

Again - an element of common sense is needed.

Cabin crew are not the people who make the rules - they only enforce them.

Your gripe is and should be with aviation regulators and airline management.

Acting in the way outlined above frankly sounds to me like someone cabin crew can do without on a flight - they, as I said above, have a tough enough job to do without smart comments and attitude like the one outlined above. By all means complain to the authorities/management, but acting in the way outlined in that post is just childish.

bk

Dublinflyer wrote: »

I am not talking about tow clippers of nail files, you are 100% right there as that is ridiculous. But when it comes to scissors and knifes how do you define small and harmless?

The TSA had specific rules on the length of the blade to be allowed.

Basically a normal penknife or multitool would be fine. A larger knife not

Dublinflyer wrote: »

There are lots of items on an aircraft that could be used as weapons but a line has to be drawn somewhere. If you are going on holidays for any length of time you are going to have checked baggage with you, the airlines are dropping the price of checked in baggage.

Not true, I've travelled on multiweek holidays with nothing but my carry on luggage. See one bagging.

Dublinflyer wrote: »

It's not just weapons these items can be used for, multitools, knives and scissors can also be used to gain access to locked areas of aircraft such as the flight desk, remove panels etc. I disagree with you that this is theater and anybody who works in aviation will agree with me. I am not saying it is right but I can see the reasoning behind it.

Clearly the TSA disagreed with you as they were going to allow these items on board. They only changed their mind after knee jerk reactions from some politicians.

Dublinflyer wrote: »

There is no right or wrong in these discussions but there is a group of people high up somewhere who come up with these rules and us mortals have to follow them if we want to fly.

That is the point, the TSA was going to relax this rule after I assume long and detailed analysis.

Just like the electronic rules, many rules exist for no real reason at all other then to placate the public, politicians or fear of change.

There is no real logic or reason behind these rules.

Dublinflyer

A multiweek trip with just carry on......wow

As for the TSA disagreeing with me you are right there. Sadly even after their long study the cabin crews, pilots, airlines and almost every union that represents airline flying staff also disagreed with them so thats a lot of knee jerking. The general opinion in a lot of the papers over there is that this was the TSA looking to either save mones by cutting staff due to easier screening requirements or playing the budget game by saying they tried to cut costs but look what happened.

I think that this thread has been hijacked enough and has drifted way off topic! We are all glad to see that we can listen to music or read from a kindle or ipad from the second we sit down to when we get up at the other end. It will make flights a bit more tolerable so the sooner it get in this side of the pond the better, and I don't think it will be long.

bk

Dublinflyer wrote: »

A multiweek trip with just carry on......wow

Check out http://www.onebag.com/ for details on how to do this.

I use to travel with loads of luggage, no longer, I only ever travel with one carry on bag now, it is actually very easy.

I know of people who have gone on months long back backing trips with just carry on luggage.

Ok so tell me about the stupidity of taking penknives off people but then selling them in duty free after security.

It is pure security theatre nonsense. Banning small knives, etc. has simply nothing to do with stopping terrorism.

Dublinflyer

If you actually read the Daily mail, a paper know for it's journalistic balance, article you can see that knives 6cm and under are allowed so there was nothing actually illegal or wrong going on. It's the same all around the EU. The TSA take a slightly different view. I can also tell you that we do not sell anything like that here in Dublin Airport but I can't speak for other airports but again, anything under 6cm is allowed.

I have to admit I am bored with this conversation now and as I was unsubscribed from this thread somebody is tired listening to me as well. There is just trolling going on now so I'm out.

bk

Dublinflyer wrote: »

If you actually read the Daily mail, a paper know for it's journalistic balance, article you can see that knives 6cm and under are allowed so there was nothing actually illegal or wrong going on. It's the same all around the EU. The TSA take a slightly different view. I can also tell you that we do not sell anything like that here in Dublin Airport but I can't speak for other airports but again, anything under 6cm is allowed.

Hmm, I've had a penknife taken off me at Dublin Airport recently with a blade under 6cm!

And BTW there is no trolling here, Security Theatre is a very real thing, please go here to read more about it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_theater

Noted computer security expert Bruce Schneier also writes extensively on the topic:
https://www.schneier.com/