Bichon Frise

Theimprover

Need some information, thinking of buying two of these with the intention of breeding them at later stages, could be a stupid question but is it ok to breed a brother and sister or is really bad to interbreed, any other info would be appreciated.

DBB

Hi Theimprover, welcome to the Animals and Pets forum.
I will advise you that you will get some robust replies to your query, as folks here have strong views about breeding pets for profit, by people with not enough expertise. And rightfully so. Your starting question reveals that you've a lot to learn! So I hope you can start off by getting useful advice here.
To this end, I'll take this early opportunity to ask people to maintain a helpful, advisory stance when replying to this query, viewing it as a chance to advise the op how to go about educating himself about the dog breeding process.
Do not reply to this post on-thread.
Thanks,
DBB

Theimprover

Just to clarify I am going to get the dogs for my 3 girls from santa and would afterwards like to get into breeding them, I have had a lot of dogs in the past with my last two been pedigree boxers but now we are looking for real pet house dogs, I have always had big dogs.

DBB

Ok, I'll kick this off.
The fact that you've asked can you breed a brother to his sister, and then said you want to buy these pups as Christmas/Santa presents raises serious questions op, so much so that I wonder how genuine your enquiry is. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and plough on. I hope, I really hope that you'll read up on the masses of info and campaigns which plead with parents not to buy pups for the kids at Christmas.
Firstly, breeding brother to sister is a non-starter, for any species. Line-breeding is acceptable, by some at least, to grandfather-granddaughter matings. That said, even this is considered by geneticists and educated breeders as being too close. Lots of research and consideration needs to go into selecting suitable mates, and as I said before, your post reflects that you've a lot of research to do in this regard before you take one more step.
Second, I'm taking it that your 3 girls, if of Santa age, are under 10-12 yrs old. Bringing a puppy into a home with a number of young kids is very, very hard work. Bringing two in, particularly littermates, is asking for a world of trouble. For starters, the pups are more likely to bond with one another, and not as strongly with the humans. This is immensely frustrating for children. It also makes training a hell of a lot more difficult. And you've twice the amount of biting, chewing, trouser-grabbing, peeing, pooping, vomiting etc. This is not a pleasant experience for children. The best advice is to get one puppy, let it grow into early adulthood, train it, bond with it, and then think about a second pup.
Thirdly, why do you want to breed dogs? And why Bichons? Do you know much about their health problems? About breeding away from such problems?
Bichons are notoriously difficult to housetrain. Are you up for this with the initial two dogs, followed by litters of pups? Are your OH and kids up for it?
Did you ever make the move to Canada? If so, are you sure they've no legislation relating to dog breeding that might apply to you?
Pups make absolute sh!t of your house: I've reared a litter of pups here, and fostered many more. And despite having a lot of puppy experience, and processes in place to protect my house and garden etc, they still turned my home into a kennel. The place stank despite daily scrubbing (usually multiple daily scrubbing actually) and they cost me a fortune to repair the damage they did. Mother pretty much stops cleaning up after her pups at 3 weeks of age... From then, all the cleaning and scrubbing is the human's job. I can't even begin to tell you how hard this is.
I won't go into the ethics of breeding dogs for money here, it's been done to death and I'm sure others will bring it up here.
But I'd suggest you do a lot more reading up and consulting with established breeders re genetics, health, puppy-rearing etc. But most of all, if it's a pet for the kids you want, get one well-sourced puppy, rear it, neuter it when it's old enough, and enjoy it as a pet dog. Leave the breeding to the experts.

Theimprover

The reason I asked here is too get as much Info as possible as I have nearly always found the info that I needed in previous forums on here, not to have accusations thrown at me and to be investigated into from my previous threads hence "Canada". The breeding part of it was just a thought. About the training and destroying my house, I have had 2 boxers and I could be wrong but I'd be thinking that boxers (males) are probably one of the most difficult dogs to train and they do wreck your house as they are pups, scratching doors, chewing on skirting, legs of chairs and other bits of furniture.
The reason for me going for a Bichon is I seen a friend of mines Bichon recently and he came across as a very friendly dog and really thought it would be a very friendly dog towards children.
I have done a small bit of research on here about the Bichon and from what I have read is they can be a very troublesome dog with health issues so maybe this is not the dog for us, open to suggestions on more choices. Just to clarify we as a family love dogs and I am going to be getting a house dog for my kids, my first initial thought would have been a Bichon but I have been put off by previous reads on here and above.

DBB

That's fine op.
Your initial two posts lack credibilty tbh, so you'll forgive me feeling my way cautiously as a result.
Also, this is an open website, and it's perfectly legitimate for me as a mod, having formed the opinion that your first two posts raise big question marks regarding their authenticity, to find out a little more about your form in other forums. It's hardly Inspector Morse level "investigation" now, and indeed is an option open to anyone on this site. Indeed, it's to be expected.
The fact that you may be in a different country raises valid concerns as to whether you need to be concerned about any regulations regarding dog breeding. That's why I brought it up. No need for the paranoia.
That's great that you've had two Boxers. But this in no way detracts from what I said above, and I'm not sure what the relevance of having had dogs before is. I've had eyes all my life. That doesn't make me an ophthalmologist.
I'll bow out of attempting to give you any further assistance now.
Good luck.

andreac

Why are you looking to get in to breeding them if they are just family pets?

another question

andreac wrote: »

Why are you looking to get in to breeding them if they are just family pets?

To kill two birds with one stone I presume. BF's are expensive for strong bloodlines.

Theimprover

andreac wrote: »

Why are you looking to get in to breeding them if they are just family pets?

Tbh it would have been as a hobby , I have a dog run out my back and live in the country, it's something I have always considered but obviously I need to learn a lot more about breeding if I was going to get into it. Ohh btw I live in Ireland and work from home so I am at home most of my time.

another question

OP, 2 pups at Christmas with 3 children is a bad idea in my opinion, you will be pulling your hair out after an hour. I have had many dogs too but as you know caring for a dog is one thing, 24 hour supervision of a new pup is an another, never mind 2 of them!

If I were you, I'd buy the girl pup and down the road find a suitable stud and build a relationship with it's owners, a lot less hassle.

andreac

another question wrote: »

To kill two birds with one stone I presume. BF's are expensive for strong bloodlines.

I dont understand what you mean by kill 2 birds with one stone?? What has that got to do with breeding family pets?

Bichons are actually not that expensive. They are only around 500-600 for your average well bred dog. Thats not expensive really.

A top quality show dog might set you back a bit more.

another question

andreac wrote: »

I dont understand what you mean by kill 2 birds with one stone?? What has that got to do with breeding family pets?

Bichons are actually not that expensive. They are only around 500-600 for your average well bred dog. Thats not expensive really.

A top quality show dog might set you back a bit more.

Maybe more than two birds then. New family pets, Christmas presents for his children, a chance to take up a hobby he has always wanted to do and an extra income on the side.

The question was about breeding, you have made issue with the 'family pet' aspect, he's 50/50 on both.

andreac

Theimprover wrote: »

Tbh it would have been as a hobby , I have a dog run out my back and live in the country, it's something I have always considered but obviously I need to learn a lot more about breeding if I was going to get into it. Ohh btw I live in Ireland and work from home so I am at home most of my time.

Breeding dogs is not a hobby. These are live animals that take a huge amount of care.

You dont just breed for the fun of it. Do you realise how many back yard breeders are out there just breeding for the sake of it? Theres absolutely no need to breed unless you are breeding top quality dogs that are champions etc with exceptional lines and to improve the breed.

I have just bred a litter of Rottweilers and i dont think i will ever do it again. I knew it would be hard work but you dont realise just HOW much until you have a litter. I certianly wouldnt be doing it for a hobby :rolleyes:

Honestly, your whole attitude towards this is wrong and i seriously suggest you rethink your reasons for breeding and just get your family pet, neuter it, and it enjoy it for what it is, a family pet, not a breeding machine for fun...

another question

andreac wrote: »

I have just bred a litter of Rottweilers

I'd prefer if there were more people breeding Bichon's than Rottweilers tbh. Families weren't your target market then.

another question

Have a read of this OP:

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/inbreeding.htm

But the general opinion is, if you have to ask then you shouldn't even think about doing it.

andreac

another question wrote: »

I'd prefer if there were more people breeding Bichon's than Rottweilers tbh. Families weren't your target market then.

Are you for real?? You have no clue obviously, so im not even going to waste my time replying to that nonsense.

You obviously know nothing about Rottweilers. A typical answer from someone who is clueless about breeds.

Actually lots of my rotties went to families. Its ignorant and narrow minded people like you that give these fabulous dogs a bad reputation, pathetic really.

DBB

another question wrote: »

I'd prefer if there were more people breeding Bichon's than Rottweilers tbh. Families weren't your target market then.

another question, quit flaming.
Keep it civil, folks. One more provocative post will result in an immediate ban.
Do not reply to this post on-thread.
Thanks,
DBB

another question

<snip>

another question, I will take it that you were posting as I posted the above on-thread warning.
I have deleted your second flaming post to give you the benefit if the doubt.
Now, get back on topic. Stop this ridiculous bickering.
Do not reply to this post on thread.
Thanks,
DBB

andreac

<snip>

See above.
Stay on topic.
Thanks,
DBB

tk123

another question wrote: »

I'd prefer if there were more people breeding Bichon's than Rottweilers tbh. Families weren't your target market then.

Well my breeder (golden retriever) said exactly the same thing as andreac - she'd never do it again because it was so hard. But like andreac's pups they were raised inside in a pen/whelping box so they'd be socialised and become happy healthy puppies .... as opposed to dumped out the back in a shed/dog run unprepared for life outside it and sold on at 6 weeks to uneducated owners..

another question

Apologies Mod, yes I was in the middle of the post when you posted your warning.

Red_Dwarf

another question wrote: »

I'd prefer if there were more people breeding Bichon's than Rottweilers tbh. Families weren't your target market then.

lol How are Rottweilers not family pets?

What makes Bichons family pets - because they are Fluffy?

DBB

lol How are Rottweilers not family pets?

What makes Bichons family pets - because they are Fluffy?

Back. On. Topic.
Start a new thread on whether Rotties are better pets than Bichons.
DBB

borderlinemeath

Theimprover wrote: »

Tbh it would have been as a hobby , I have a dog run out my back and live in the country, it's something I have always considered but obviously I need to learn a lot more about breeding if I was going to get into it. Ohh btw I live in Ireland and work from home so I am at home most of my time.

For a start if you were to breed, where do you intend to whelp? You can't just let a dog have pups in a dog run, or let a mother rear a litter in a run (if that's what you're suggesting, I'm not sure why else you mentioned it). A well bred, well socialized, healthy litter needs to be whelped and reared indoors, listening to all normal household noises and appliances and human traffic as it goes about it's normal daily routine. Only then will you have confident pups who don't exhibit any fears due to lack of exposure. The puppy farmers and back yard breeders don't care for the mental well being of the litter so will rear outside. The proper breeders who breed to improve the dog will health test the bitch and stud (not just a vet visit but xrays and hips scores and tests to determine whether any organ/cardiac deficiencies exist. Both dogs will be chosen to complement each others traits rather than just getting two dogs of the same breed and hoping for the best. Good breeders rarely if ever make money, they're lucky to break even. Vet bills for a litter can run into a lot, pre whelping visits for the bitch, you'll need to have the vet on call during whelping as complications can occur and the bitch might need an emergency C-section. Post vet visits for worming, vaccinations, microchipping of the pups. Infrared heat lamps to keep the newborn pups warm, top quality food is needed for the bitch during her pregnancy and especially pre and post whelping. Puppy food and weaning food for the pups. A whelping box, all the extra bedding, towels, disinfectants, puppy packs for prospective owners of the pups, and of course the guarantee that if it doesn't work out with the new owners that you will take back the pup/young dog. (all good breeders do this)

On top of this you'll have 8/9 weeks of your life being turned upside down caring for the pups. For the first few nights you'll have to check on them throughout the night, sometimes hourly, to make sure they're all feeding from the bitch. (that's if she has a manageable litter size, too big a litter and you could be hand feeding newborn pups every couple of hours, 24hrs a day). Also if she's a first time mother, she might need a bit of guidance, some dogs are surprisingly clueless, sometimes they can roll over and crush a pup to death by sitting on it.

OP, it's tough tough work, not a hobby. And you've a family life to get on with throughout. Having owned 2 boxers in the past does not qualify as experienced enough to start breeding dogs. I own two dogs and mind other peoples and I would think I know a good bit about them and I wouldn't consider breeding. Ever. It's too much worry and stress, not to mention the cost (even if your pet is insured, pregnancy is one thing that is not covered). A bitch I was minding whelped her puppies here and it was the most stressful time, I can't reiterate that enough.

Red_Dwarf

Yeah sorry I didnt see the edited posts.

Im going to give my 2 cents here which is my opinion only

OP. if you are only getting Bichons for your daughters because they are fluffy and cute you need to ask the following

Is it the type of dog YOU and your wife would choose. The reason I ask this is what happens if your daughters lose intrerest with the Bichon. Is it they type of dog you would have picked for you.


True breeders will make next to nothing or a loss. Due to Vet Bills, Vacs , Food and so on.

HAve you got the time and patience to look after a pregnant dog and then Pups to go with it.

Knine

I had a litter 5 mths ago. They cost me a fortune. I went to the UK to look at potential sires. My Bitch is an Irish Champion. She also excels at dog sports.

I wanted a dog to complement her & improve her weaker points. I paid a stud fee for a quality dog resident the other side of Ireland. I did not just choose a dog down the road because he was the same breed.

The bitch got into trouble in the middle of the night & needed an emergency C-Section. I have a lot of experience breeding dogs but things still can go wrong. The cost for this was almost €700. I only got 3 puppies. After a C-Section puppies can be very slow to feed. It was very hard work saving them.

They were reared indoors. A run/shed is not the place for puppies. Placing puppies in suitable homes is a whole other story.

There is no income from breeding dogs if you do it right. I only breed to keep a suitable puppy for showing but even that can go wrong.

If you want to make an 'income' I suggest you find a different hobby. No reputable breeder will sell puppies as Christmas presents.

Theimprover

Look let's just forget about the breeding aspect for now, kinda of sorry I started the thread tbh.
I want to get a house dog and really like the Bichon so going to go with it, lock thread if ye want mods.

borderlinemeath

Theimprover wrote: »

Look let's just forget about the breeding aspect for now, kinda of sorry I started the thread tbh.
I want to get a house dog and really like the Bichon so going to go with it, lock thread if ye want mods.

Because you didn't hear what you wanted to?

When you go to choose your bichon, tread carefully. They are one of the dogs most exploited by puppy farmers and back yard breeders. Read the sticky at the top of the page regarding choosing a pup and avoiding bad breeders, because with a bichon and the myriad of health problems that they can suffer from, you will end up paying a lot more in vets bills if you go the cheap pup from a byb option.

Knine

Theimprover wrote: »

Look let's just forget about the breeding aspect for now, kinda of sorry I started the thread tbh.
I want to get a house dog and really like the Bichon so going to go with it, lock thread if ye want mods.

Could you get the kids a lead, collar, bed etc for Christmas & go on a waiting list for a puppy for after the madness of Christmas?

No decent breeder will sell puppies as Christmas presents.

sadie06

Theimprover wrote: »

Look let's just forget about the breeding aspect for now, kinda of sorry I started the thread tbh.
I want to get a house dog and really like the Bichon so going to go with it, lock thread if ye want mods.

In fairness OP, your first post never mentioned a pet/house dog, and was a direct statement of your intention to breed, and a direct ( rather startling) question about breeding. The thread was destined to take the course that it did.

For what it's worth, the only Bichon Frise I know very well has conquered its owners on the issue of house training. It just refuses to accept that it should have to pee anywhere other than in the comfort of the kitchen. Owners are at a loss at this stage.

sadie06

Knine wrote: »

Could you get the kids a lead, collar, bed etc for Christmas & go on a waiting list for a puppy for after the madness of Christmas?

No decent breeder will sell puppies as Christmas presents.

We did this at the end of the school year, when we normally get the kids a reasonable reward for working hard all year. They got a doggy bowl and toy each, and our puppy arrived 5 weeks later.

Ms Tootsie

Taking out the breeding question which to be honest seems like something you really did little or no research into, have you looked at some of the issues that come with owning bichons? While I think they are a fantastic dog they are very high maintenance:

• Regular (daily) grooming needed i.e brushing - they have a double coat and this is essential to stop it matting and becoming painful for the dog
• Weekly / bi weekly bath grooming - this process alone is time consuming and can take 2 hours to do right from bathing to drying and brushing
• Regular professional grooming needed.
• It is a breed known for needing a lot of companionship - you say you work from home but does this allow you time to spend with your dog during the day
• House training - bischons are renowned for being a difficult breed to house train. Personally I think this can be over come with good methods and a determined owner. But are you and the kids willing to keep enforcing training methods long after the puppy - newness has passed?
• While Bichons are good with kids they are a small dog and often cant handle the rough housing that comes with young children. Personally I cant imagine them settling well in a house full of children under the age of 8 who understand a puppys needs and when to leave the dog alone.
• Finally the breed does have heath issues (as most pure breeds do) have you thought about the extra cost this may result in. They are particularly senstive to skin problems and as a result you will need to work on finding a diet that keeps this in check - mainly this will mean the more expensive (and probably) better quality dog foods, and maybe even fresh or raw (speaking from someone with a pure bred with such allergies). Other heath issues involve bladder (and kidney) stones, loose kneecaps, juvenile cataracts, excessive tartar/tooth decay, and hip dysplasia. Some of this can be avoided by going to a reputable breeder but some are inherent to the breed and you just might end up unlucky.

Aside from this you have the standard puppy issues to cope with (chewing, biting, peeing, scratching, tearing, sleepless nights, whining, shredding - yes even bichons can lose hair) along with having three young children.

While I got a puppy two years ago I wouldnt change it for the world but it was very very very hard work and there was only me and my OH involved. As you work from home you are in a better position that most but I strongly advise you to take on all the advice given here - believe me when I say it will be a life saver.

A lot of posters here are very anti-puppy presents at Christmas. Personally I am as well. A dog is for life and just like most Christmas presents the novalty could wear off.

My suggestion to overcome this would be to take your children to a local rescue, see how they interact with dogs. Then if you still want to go ahead I would get them the dog essentials for Christmas and start preparing for your arrival - leads, bowls, kennels etc. Have the children learning from the start that a dog is work. Getting a puppy later in the year as well also reduces your chance of ending up with a puppy breed by a backyard breeder - these guys are rife at this time of year as many people push ahead with the puppy present agenda.

Best of luck with your decision and if you do get a dog be sure to pop back here where there is tons of advice.

cocker5

<snip>

Leave nasty comments out of the thread cocker5.

sadie06

<snip>

That's a little harsh, not to mention a little hypocritical!

OP, I think you are right, thread should be locked.

sillysmiles

kaza2710 wrote: »

[*]House training - bischons are renowned for being a difficult breed to house train. Personally I think this can be over come with good methods and a determined owner. But are you and the kids willing to keep enforcing training methods long after the puppy - newness has passed?

Just on this point, I would suggest that you expect to do all or 90% of the work with the pup because it is a very very good young kid that is capable of doing all that needs to be done with a young puppy. I think often you hear stories where dogs/pups are surrender to rescues because the kids weren't looking after it and the adult wasn't going to do the work.
Ever child will promise to look after a puppy but the reality is that there needs to be adult who does 90% of the work and teaches teaches the kids what is required as time goes by.
Good luck

Dodd

Don't do it.
You want 2 dogs for 3 girls.?
You might breed them.?

Don't get a dog until you know what you are at.

Really if YOU want a dog ,but for kids that will grow and not care for these dogs it will be left to you to look after.

ShaShaBear

another question wrote: »

I'd prefer if there were more people breeding Bichon's than Rottweilers tbh. Families weren't your target market then.

><

puppieperson

Your opening question is so surreal i think you might need to get an education. Would you breed with your own brother? Then why would you think its ok with dogs?
The amount of dog breeding that is going on to give idiots a few quid is down right disgusting the rescue centres are full of your good intentions. ~Perhaps try getting your kids the electronic robotic dogs instead of real ones as there needs to be a knowledgeable person in a house hold where dogs will live and you knowledge is very sadly lacking.

DBB

puppieperson wrote: »

Your opening question is so surreal i think you might need to get an education. Would you breed with your own brother? Then why would you think its ok with dogs?
The amount of dog breeding that is going on to give idiots a few quid is down right disgusting the rescue centres are full of your good intentions. ~Perhaps try getting your kids the electronic robotic dogs instead of real ones as there needs to be a knowledgeable person in a house hold where dogs will live and you knowledge is very sadly lacking.

Puppieperson, calm down. I have already issued you with a red card for your conduct on another thread, and I see you're being as impolite and judgemental here too.
If I see one more post from you which fails to show a modicum of respect for other posters, you will be banned from the forum.
Do not reply to this post on thread.
Thanks,
DBB