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C&C F2P S*** Canned
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29-10-2013 7:40pm#1
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Starcraft 2 and CoH2 (which I presume is doing ok) would disagree with you, and RTS was never the biggest genre out there anyway. There's plenty of room for another C&C with a strong community, turning it into a F2P nickle-and-dime operation is not the answer however.
SC2 is an anomaly, just like most Blizzard games. CoH2 may make a profit, it's not going to be a roaring success though unfortunately (the devs did go through hell to get that game out though from what rumours got out). F2P nickle and dime crap is just a symptom of how hard it is to turn a profit on these games right now and that's an indication of just how niche the genre has become compared to the huge variety we had in the late 90s in the genre.
RTS has a few key problems: a) PC-only, figure out a way to make the genre work on a console and you'll turn it into a goldmine, b) dominated by a very small number of strong IPs which all newcomers need to live up to, c) expensive because of b), especially on the post-sale support part, d) are very hard to keep balanced, players will keep finding ways to break your balancing unless you simplify the game to the point where no one will play it, e) punishingly hard to get into, the learning curve is very, very steep in this genre for newcomers (MOBAs tend to share this problem), f) generally 1v1, now I like this personally but a lot of people seem to much prefer team games or you against loads of people, I guess because it focuses less attention on you being bad at the game. :P (and because team games with organised teams and Mumble/TS are a lot of fun)
RTS is in trouble. I hope it doesn't go the way of TBS and drop totally off the mainstream radar (I'd happily part with AAA pricetag money for a high production values hex based wargame but that isn't happening any time soon or ever
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Join Date:Posts: 33867
SC2 is an anomaly, just like most Blizzard games. CoH2 may make a profit, it's not going to be a roaring success though unfortunately (the devs did go through hell to get that game out though from what rumours got out). F2P nickle and dime crap is just a symptom of how hard it is to turn a profit on these games right now and that's an indication of just how niche the genre has become compared to the huge variety we had in the late 90s in the genre.
In fairness, Nickle and Dime operations are springing up in all genres, FPS being the most common by the looks of things, so I don't think it's a case of being the only avenue open to RTS games to make money. EA just got greedy in my eyes and probably didn't properly plan out whether that kind of business plan can work in RTS. I haven't played the Generals Beta but I always had a belief you couldn't transplant the unit/base building aspect of RTS into a micro transactions format.RTS has a few key problems: a) PC-only, figure out a way to make the genre work on a console and you'll turn it into a goldmine,
How did that Halo RTS go down? That was console-only affair iirc, and what scattered memories I have of it, reviews seemed to praise how smoothly they adopted the base-building RTS to a console controller...
As for the rest of your list, I agree for the most part, although again they're not exactly situations unique to RTS really; you could use the approximate same list to describe the average FPS or MMRPG franchise, no? Particularly the MMORPG market where 1/2 massive IPs have a monopoly on the field (and arguably have far greater support costs than the average RTS might have). I'd say it's a simple case that RTS games are a bit more involved and require the kind of strategic / lateral thinking that wouldn't interest the mass-market. Most people just want to shoot things in the face Like I said, I don't think RTS was ever a huge market in the first place, even in its heyday of SC1 / C&C: Red Alert 1 / Total Annihilation...RTS is in trouble. I hope it doesn't go the way of TBS and drop totally off the mainstream radar (I'd happily part with AAA pricetag money for a high production values hex based wargame but that isn't happening any time soon or ever ).
Like lots of apparently 'dead' genres such as the isometric adventure game, Kickstarter is breathing new life into them (for the isometrics, see Shadowrun Returns or Wasteland 2) so if the big brands were to hit the wall, I could easily see many RTS projects springing up on Kickstarter to fill the gap. Heck, I'm surprised they haven't already.
As for your own desires for a hex-based, today is your lucky day! There's one already well funded (they hit some stretch goals too) and in beta testing, check out Battle Worlds: Kronos, a turn-based RTS played over a hex-map
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/kingartgames/battle-worlds-kronos-turn-based-strategy-revisited0 -
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The questions about the sort of RTS you're making are very important and I'm not sure EA answered them with this C&C.
Are you making a story driven single player game? This is easier to get right I think.
Are you trying to make a competitive multiplayer/e-sports game? You won't overtake SC2 and unless you can draw major players/names within the RTS Competitive community, you're dead in the water. SC2's numbers have dwindled a lot to MOBAs like LoL and DOTA2, so you need to see if there's some way you can bring that sort of thing into the C&C universe.
I'm a big fan of the single player C&C games, never much played the multi, but have had some fun with it playing against friends on LAN - the parachuting tanks Chinese guy in Generals was awesome - you could drop an unstoppable army somewhere on the sly whilst engaging your opponent in skirmishes to keep him busy and away from whatever corner of the map you were building up a death ball of tanks 0 -
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In fairness, Nickle and Dime operations are springing up in all genres, FPS being the most common by the looks of things, so I don't think it's a case of being the only avenue open to RTS games to make money. EA just got greedy in my eyes and probably didn't properly plan out whether that kind of business plan can work in RTS. I haven't played the Generals Beta but I always had a belief you couldn't transplant the unit/base building aspect of RTS into a micro transactions format.
Yeah I mostly agree with you because the point generally stands, non-subscription based big budget games are becoming harder and harder to turn a profit on when they're not already dominant IPs in their genre. Whilst FTP games and subscription games are rolling around in cash.How did that Halo RTS go down? That was console-only affair iirc, and what scattered memories I have of it, reviews seemed to praise how smoothly they adopted the base-building RTS to a console controller...
This was kind of my point. "Base building RTSs" of the traditional variety are what are having the most trouble. Far too many people just aren't interested in precisely hitting hotkeys for several minutes before any action starts. So we're seeing a lot of answers to this question, e.g. Total War's removal of the base building into a turn based element that can be mostly automated, MOBA's stripping away of the base and units from WC3, Sins of a Solar Empire's extremely streamlined RTS/4x hybrid etc. Traditional base building RTSs like CoH2 or SC2 are what are dying out.As for the rest of your list, I agree for the most part, although again they're not exactly situations unique to RTS really; you could use the approximate same list to describe the average FPS or MMRPG franchise, no? Particularly the MMORPG market where 1/2 massive IPs have a monopoly on the field (and arguably have far greater support costs than the average RTS might have). I'd say it's a simple case that RTS games are a bit more involved and require the kind of strategic / lateral thinking that wouldn't interest the mass-market. Most people just want to shoot things in the face Like I said, I don't think RTS was ever a huge market in the first place, even in its heyday of SC1 / C&C: Red Alert 1 / Total Annihilation...
Yeah, again I agree. Mostly it's due to budgets for regular AAA games far outstripping what the non-dominant IPs can expect to rake back in. RTS was a much bigger market back in the day, but you have to remember that a lot of the dominant genres today were still in their infancy back then. Command & Conquer came out five years before the original CounterStrike and was a contemporary of Doom II. Dune II came out the year before Wolfenstein 3d ffs! Different days.
Like lots of apparently 'dead' genres such as the isometric adventure game, Kickstarter is breathing new life into them (for the isometrics, see Shadowrun Returns or Wasteland 2) so if the big brands were to hit the wall, I could easily see many RTS projects springing up on Kickstarter to fill the gap. Heck, I'm surprised they haven't already.
As for your own desires for a hex-based, today is your lucky day! There's one already well funded (they hit some stretch goals too) and in beta testing, check out Battle Worlds: Kronos, a turn-based RTS played over a hex-map
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/kingartgames/battle-worlds-kronos-turn-based-strategy-revisited
Cheers, I normally hand over too much money to Slitherine who have been using indiegogo etc.
Kickstarter et al are the way forward for niche genres that struggle to attract mainstream funding, like traditional RTS games and TBS games, no question. I've backed quite a few games that I know for a fact would never see light of day without crowdfunding. I think this is a good thing, sure some people will be burned backing the wrong project but I think once we have developers with a good track record putting up projects things will work out ok.0 -
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