sewer vent - options

tp25

Hi, I have a sewer pipe going out in the attic (builders left it unattended when they finished the place, for years this caused a lot of bad smell in the attic), couple of years ago I have attached the black flexi duct.
This solution isn't correct as the condensation inside the duct creates water at the bends and I have had few leaks where the weight of the water in the duct caused the joined parts to leak
The distance between the sewer pipe and the vent is quite long -about 5 meters, but it isn't straight as the duct is twisted- this is where the water accumulate.

I need to come up with a solution.

Is it possible to use an AAV - air admittance valve in a partially habitable/habitable area? - I don't want to poison anyone by installing it. But it would save me a lot of hassle in terms of avoiding the roof penetrations and getting the roof works done - as it will involve raising the sewer pipe or moving/adding the roof vent above the sewer pipe and connecting the two.

I came across this aav product:

Floplast
http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&ved=0CD4QFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.floplast.co.uk%2Fuploads%2Fdownloads%2FInternal%2520AAV%2520Inst%2520and%2520Performance%2520Guide%2520.pdf&ei=KutvUvDoFs-P7Aa9t4HIBA&usg=AFQjCNGl9m-k1ywin7XiwxzmbcPJzTjQXw

or would it be better to run the sewer pipe straight through the roof and remove/install new roof vent/tile?
If so, what are recommended types of the roof vents and what are there rules as to the height of the pipe above the roof?

Ideally I wish to have this as flat as possible (aligned with the tiles) and red brick colour.

Perhaps this product is the one to go if I am left with roof penetration option:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Klober-Universal-Tile-Vent-and-Cap-And-Soil-Mechanical-Adaptor-Flexi-Pipe-/120805494393

kieranhr

That's really bad that the builder left the Soil Vent Pipe to terminate in the attic space. It's not just a bad smell. Those are toxic fumes that have caused fatalities in some circumstances.

The Air Admittance Valve is the way to go, if it suits your budget. Check what the design life is on it, and check it every so often to make sure it's working. You can't be too careful with this stuff.

tred

tp25 wrote: »

Hi, I have a sewer pipe going out in the attic (builders left it unattended when they finished the place, for years this caused a lot of bad smell in the attic), couple of years ago I have attached the black flexi duct.
This solution isn't correct as the condensation inside the duct creates water at the bends and I have had few leaks where the weight of the water in the duct caused the joined parts to leak
The distance between the sewer pipe and the vent is quite long -about 5 meters, but it isn't straight as the duct is twisted- this is where the water accumulate.

I need to come up with a solution.

Is it possible to use an AAV - air admittance valve in a partially habitable/habitable area? - I don't want to poison anyone by installing it. But it would save me a lot of hassle in terms of avoiding the roof penetrations and getting the roof works done - as it will involve raising the sewer pipe or moving/adding the roof vent above the sewer pipe and connecting the two.

I came across this aav product:

Floplast
http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&ved=0CD4QFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.floplast.co.uk%2Fuploads%2Fdownloads%2FInternal%2520AAV%2520Inst%2520and%2520Performance%2520Guide%2520.pdf&ei=KutvUvDoFs-P7Aa9t4HIBA&usg=AFQjCNGl9m-k1ywin7XiwxzmbcPJzTjQXw

or would it be better to run the sewer pipe straight through the roof and remove/install new roof vent/tile?
If so, what are recommended types of the roof vents and what are there rules as to the height of the pipe above the roof?

Ideally I wish to have this as flat as possible (aligned with the tiles) and red brick colour.

Perhaps this product is the one to go if I am left with roof penetration option:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Klober-Universal-Tile-Vent-and-Cap-And-Soil-Mechanical-Adaptor-Flexi-Pipe-/120805494393

We have one toilet that my plumber was concerned needed air to power the flush and an output on side gable wasnt an option. we fed the sewer to attic and fitted that device. No issues, or smells 2 years later. the valve opens on flush and pulls air down to ensure no problems with flush....but then closes back auto.

BryanF

tred wrote: »

We have one toilet that my plumber was concerned needed air to power the flush and an output on side gable wasnt an option. we fed the sewer to attic and fitted that device.

assuming thats an Air Admittance Valve shouldnt that be out through a vent in the roof???

tp25

when I read the instructions on the air admittance valve, it clearly stated: do not use in habitable areas.
At least that's the one I had in my hand.

Should I install the pipe through the roof to allow these fumes to ventilate outside?

kieranhr

The whole point of the AAV is that you don't need to vent it externally.

tp25

kieranhr wrote: »

The whole point of the AAV is that you don't need to vent it externally.

yep - I know, it says on the sticker that it keeps 97% of the poisonous gasses, I recon the other 3% makes it redundant in the Habitable areas..? am I missing something?

If I can use it in habitable area then I will. Can someone advise on brand/type which is allowed to install in habitable areas? - If any..!

BryanF

kieranhr wrote: »

The whole point of the AAV is that you don't need to vent it externally.

can you show us where this is in the regs? thanks

kieranhr

BryanF wrote: »

can you show us where this is in the regs? thanks

Sure - Part H as follows:

1.2.2.12 If the values in Diagram 3 are
exceeded, the branch pipe should be
ventilated by a branch ventilating pipe to
external air, to a discharge stack (modified
single stack system), to a ventilating stack
(ventilated system) or internally by an Air
Admittance Valve complying with I.S. EN
12380: 2002 Air admittance valves for
drainage systems - Requirements, test
methods and evaluation of conformity.

tred

kieranhr wrote: »

The whole point of the AAV is that you don't need to vent it externally.

correct my attic, is not habitable. its a cold ventilated attic space. I don't know why you would need it if you had pipe directly outside via roof or soffit

tp25

tred wrote: »

correct my attic, is not habitable. its a cold ventilated attic space. I don't know why you would need it if you had pipe directly outside via roof or soffit

I don't have either of these. I don't have pipe directly outside via roof or soffit.

I don't have ventilated attic space.

kieranhr

You don't have a ventilated attic space? You should at least have soffit vents or a wall vent in your attic. If not, you have more problems than the AAV.

tred

tp25 wrote: »

I don't have either of these. I don't have pipe directly outside via roof or soffit.

I don't have ventilated attic space.

natural ventilation i am sure??...thats what we mean...not HRV in attic

tp25

kieranhr wrote: »

You don't have a ventilated attic space? You should at least have soffit vents or a wall vent in your attic. If not, you have more problems than the AAV.

I have insulated attic space at the roof level (between the rafters and under the rafters)

The roof insulation is one thing, this is ventilated by the 70mm gap between the insulation and the breathable felt. Then I do have the soffit vents, but these provide for the above ventilation, the fresh air isn't really currently venting the attic space, I do have windows with built-in vents, these are installed in the attic and I plan to install mechanical fan to control the temperature and potential condensation problems (fan will have a couple of sensors and will be located at the highest point of the attic).

But saying this, I also have the unattended sewer pipe in the attic (currently I have just connected flexible duct to this pipe and then connected to one of the roof vents- this is a temporary solution.

But what I need to know is whether I can use AAV in the attic space - it is a habitable space, or should I just run the sewer pipe straight through the roof to the outside?

BryanF

kieranhr wrote: »

Sure - Part H as follows:

1.2.2.12 If the values in Diagram 3 are
exceeded, the branch pipe should be
ventilated by a branch ventilating pipe to
external air, to a discharge stack (modified
single stack system), to a ventilating stack
(ventilated system) or internally by an Air
Admittance Valve complying with I.S. EN
12380: 2002 Air admittance valves for
drainage systems - Requirements, test
methods and evaluation of conformity.

where does it say, AAV not required to vent externally? i would take 'external air' to mean vent to the outside ie external to the building envelope.

tp25

kieranhr wrote: »

You don't have a ventilated attic space? You should at least have soffit vents or a wall vent in your attic. If not, you have more problems than the AAV.

I'm just at the processing stage at the moment... AAV is one of the problems. What options do I really have?

Bear in mind I don't want to be poisoned, AAV's should be used in ventilated areas.. I don't think under the floor is classified as ventilated...

kieranhr

BryanF wrote: »

where does it say, AAV not required to vent externally? i would take 'external air' to mean vent to the outside ie external to the building envelope.

1.2.2.12 If the values in Diagram 3 are
exceeded, the branch pipe should be
ventilated by a branch ventilating pipe to
external air, to a discharge stack (modified
single stack system), to a ventilating stack
(ventilated system) or internally by an Air
Admittance Valve complying with I.S. EN
12380: 2002 Air admittance valves for
drainage systems - Requirements, test
methods and evaluation of conformity.

prewtna

BryanF wrote: »

where does it say, AAV not required to vent external? i would take 'external air' to mean outside ie external to the building envelope.

forgive my cheeky response - but when it says 'or internally by an Air
Admittance Valve . . .' ???

also

1.2.3.8 Ventilated discharge stacks may be
terminated inside a building when fitted with
air admittance valves complying with I.S. EN
12380 Air admittance valves for drainage
systems - Requirements, test methods and
evaluation of conformity. Where these valves
are used they should not adversely affect the
amount of ventilation necessary for the below
ground system which is normally provided by
open stacks of the drainage pipework. Air
admittance valves should be located in areas
which have adequate ventilation, should be
accessible for maintenance and should be
removable to give access for clearance of
blockages. Air admittance valves should not
be used outside buildings or in dust laden
atmospheres.

tp25

prewtna wrote: »

forgive my cheeky response - but when it says 'or internally by an Air
Admittance Valve . . .' ???

also

1.2.3.8 Ventilated discharge stacks may be
terminated inside a building when fitted with
air admittance valves complying with I.S. EN
12380 Air admittance valves for drainage
systems - Requirements, test methods and
evaluation of conformity. Where these valves
are used they should not adversely affect the
amount of ventilation necessary for the below
ground system which is normally provided by
open stacks of the drainage pipework. Air
admittance valves should be located in areas
which have adequate ventilation, should be
accessible for maintenance and should be
removable to give access for clearance of
blockages. Air admittance valves should not
be used outside buildings or in dust laden
atmospheres.

adequate ventilation - I won't have this option available... I could install AAV, then install floor above it but then it wouldn't be ventilated (unless I completely remove current MOY floor insulation, perhaps use some PIR insulation instead to provide for some floor insulation and then install additional soffit vent 4 meters from the AAV as this will be the nearest point to ventilate it - this way some fresh air would access the area where the AAV will be located. But this may be incorrect approach.

I believe I may be left with a pipe through the roof option and nothing else.

Under attic the floor may not be classified as adequately ventilated.

tred

There are 2 types of these air intake valves . one is internal and one is external. You would be voiding the manufacturers guidlines by using an internal air intake valve externally. I think this conversation is meandering. i would suggest another post to discuss the uses of such valves, so the OP can focus on his problem.

prewtna

tp25 wrote: »

adequate ventilation - I won't have this option available... I could install AAV, then install floor above it but then it wouldn't be ventilated (unless I completely remove current MOY floor insulation, perhaps use some PIR insulation instead to provide for some floor insulation and then install additional soffit vent 4 meters from the AAV as this will be the nearest point to ventilate it - this way some fresh air would access the area where the AAV will be located. But this may be incorrect approach.

I believe I may be left with a pipe through the roof option and nothing else.

Under attic the floor may not be classified as adequately ventilated.

i suppose the question here is - what is adequate ventilation? I don't know the answer to that tbh.

i wonder could you lob up a sketch of the detail / location of where the AAV will be located? we might be able to assess from that if there is 'adequate ventilation' available to it then. im guessing that if there is a decent volume of air to 'suck' from then it might be alright? but really, im guessing here, so if someone else has more informed opinion - lets be having it!

tp25

prewtna wrote: »

i suppose the question here is - what is adequate ventilation? I don't know the answer to that tbh.

i wonder could you lob up a sketch of the detail / location of where the AAV will be located? we might be able to assess from that if there is 'adequate ventilation' available to it then. im guessing that if there is a decent volume of air to 'suck' from then it might be alright? but really, im guessing here, so if someone else has more informed opinion - lets be having it!

let me prepare these sketches / images to help have a view on my scenario

Norma Di

Hello,


I've come across this issue in my line of work previously and in fact have had problems with the water - the issue in question was for penthouse apartments where all the vent pipes from the peasants beneath all termined up in these penthouses. Probem with the vent is that it couldn;t carry the water vapour to roof outlet so it ended up condensing where it met cold air and falling back down the pipe and water leaked out at weeak points in the system. Faced with few options we used Air admittance valves (Durgo valves) and they worked out well. Think about 70 quid so it's a relatively cheap and easy solution. Personally I'd prefer to vent to outside every time and would get a proprietary roof vent tile with a 4inch spigot and hard connect the sewer pipe to this

Good luck with it