High Speed Setup build

Eoghan S

Hey guys
Just need some advice...
I'm thinking about upgrading my A&K Masada to increase the trigger response and ROF. I'll need advice on what is essential to reach around 30rps on a 9.6v NiMH battery!
Basically, I want a high ROF for close quarters hosing, as well as having a quick trigger response for DMR setups
I've done my research, but so far it has succeeded in confusing me even more!
So I'll need a new motor, that much I know, and may upgrade to LiPo for that extra trigger response.
The motor I was thinking of was the Element Max Speed motor, but it seems to be quite rare... If anyone could help me in choosing? Don't want to spend over 40 on one.
I understand that I need a MOSFET if I'm to run lipos incredibly well, and again ament too sure about the best ones for my setup?
Anything else that's essential for this, apart from new barrel for DMR, and rewiring to deans, that will help me achieve my goal?
Before someone mentions it, I have already googled this, just want some opinions on my own potential build, and not somebody else's!
Thanks lads!

ShRT

As someone who is in the process of getting ready to do the same to a G36C, i'll offer up what i have learned from my research.
This will be my upgrade path and at each stage i will see how the rof is doing

Deans
Lipo (11.1)
Mosfet (as per this guide)
High speed gears (looking at 13:1, specifically SHS or these ones as i'm getting some other svd stuff from them)
Swiss cheese the piston
High speed motor - not sure which as i'll come to that if nessecary

Eoghan S

Thanks mate,
Have a MOSFET here I completely forgot about! Some cheaply made one, but the reviews seem decent enough.. Can you uninstall MOSFETs once they're soldered in?
The Lonex A1 motor seems to be what I want, delivering torque and speed?
Thanks for that, I'll look into the swiss cheese piston

ShRT

Not a bother. Yeah I guess you could take the mosfet out - just reverse the wiring back to what it was originally.

The A1 does seem to be the motor of choice!

Eoghan S

ShRT wrote: »

Not a bother. Yeah I guess you could take the mosfet out - just reverse the wiring back to what it was originally.

The A1 does seem to be the motor of choice!

May as well try that MOSFET so, it doesn't have active breaking so not too much can go wrong really (I hope anyway!)
You can't get the A1 in Ireland can you?
Thanks again

ShRT

Yeah i'd avoid the active breaking version. You really want to be using a microcontroller based one if you want the active breaking or you are in danger of putting too much strain on the motor. The microcontroller ones can detect whats called back emf and therefore know when to stop applying the active break.

I'm not sure about the lonex availability to be honest as i haven't really been looking at motors. The G&P M120 is pretty popular too and most of the Irish retailers have it.

A good shim and grease job is always a good idea too - in fact prob the best place to start.

T4RGET

SHS hi torque motor. Have one in my set up and it us unbelievable.
they're pretty pricey though.
I honestly wouldn't go for the G&P M120, they were good in their day but they're kind of out dated at this stage.
As mentioned low ratio gears. the lower the faster they turn, but just be cautious of pre engagement, which isn't just down to the gears but in general in a high RoF it may be an issue.
I use 13:1 supershooter gears by SHS.
If you're going through the hassle i would change to lipo's tbh and deans while you're at it too.

They're the basics, then you have short stroking and swiss cheesing which tbh i wouldn't even be bothered with, the increase in RoF from removing a bit of plastic from the piston is not going to be that great, especially seeing most of them are made from light weight material as is.

Rooky1

To be honest to build a hi speed set up you need to stear clear of hi speed motors. As SD has mentioned a good hi torque motor is what you want.

A neo magnet hi torque motor will spin up too full speed quicker than a hi speed motor.

I would only use a hi speed if you were using 18:1(standard ratio) or 16:1(hi speed) gears.

For a hi speed set up I would be using 14:1, 13:1 or 10:1 gears with a neo hi torque motor (SHS, JG red/blue, Guarder infinite, Lonex, Tienly, Magnum, M160, M170, M180, etc)
Element do a decent hi torque as well as a hi torque and speed one much like the M140.

A decent shim and grease job will pay off no end.
Sort the AOE and mod the piston teeth to help with pre engagement and you are sorted.

Short stroking and swiss cheesing the piston are done to really increase ROF (it would be miniscule increase), but rather they help the piston return and re set much quicker. This gives a much quicker semi shot. It also helps lessen the chance of pre engagement.

A lot of very hi speed setups only use a basic mosfet to protect the switch. I find that AB Fets will give you a much more responsive semi shot as well. Yes it will wear your motor quicker but it is a small price to pay for the performance you want.

Some mosfets can be a bit restrictive. I have a DSG set up running at 46 a sec on standard wiring. I have fitted an ASCU3 because I had one lying around. It works fine but it will not allow the system to fire any faster than 32. I removed the fet and back to 46.
I know the ASCU are only meant to be rated for a max of 30 anyway, but just wanted to see for myself.

Eoghan S

ShRT wrote: »

Yeah i'd avoid the active breaking version. You really want to be using a microcontroller based one if you want the active breaking or you are in danger of putting too much strain on the motor. The microcontroller ones can detect whats called back emf and therefore know when to stop applying the active break.

I'm not sure about the lonex availability to be honest as i haven't really been looking at motors. The G&P M120 is pretty popular too and most of the Irish retailers have it.

A good shim and grease job is always a good idea too - in fact prob the best place to start.

Yeah I was looking into microcontroller mosfets earlier, just the $$ really :P
Don't need anything fancy like three round burst at the minute, so I'll stick to the basic fet for now...
Ah, the G&P M120... Seems to have much loved and hated reviews from the forums I've been flicking through, a bit outdated at this stage I think, not that I'd know much about it!
Shimming and greasing is essential, so I'll look into a total reshim job alright. Have you any idea if I need to change the bushings? I've seen somewhere that I should swap to aluminium ones asap
Thanks for your help again!

Eoghan S

T4RGET wrote: »

SHS hi torque motor. Have one in my set up and it us unbelievable.
they're pretty pricey though.
I honestly wouldn't go for the G&P M120, they were good in their day but they're kind of out dated at this stage.
As mentioned low ratio gears. the lower the faster they turn, but just be cautious of pre engagement, which isn't just down to the gears but in general in a high RoF it may be an issue.
I use 13:1 supershooter gears by SHS.
If you're going through the hassle i would change to lipo's tbh and deans while you're at it too.

They're the basics, then you have short stroking and swiss cheesing which tbh i wouldn't even be bothered with, the increase in RoF from removing a bit of plastic from the piston is not going to be that great, especially seeing most of them are made from light weight material as is.

Hey mate
So it's the high torques I should look into instead? Love them myself, had a simple classic army one earlier on, and the trigger response was snappy (the blue CA motor!)
I think I'll get the 13:1 shs gear set, what's the difference between the super shooter and the normal 13:1 gears? Stronger?
Lipos are definitely looking stronger for me, just don't really understand them myself, what with the cells, etc! But that's for another day...
Deans I will certainly change to!
I think I'll look into the other mods like Swiss cheesing later on, want the basic build first, if I need a slight boost I'll try
Thanks!

ShRT

Metal bushings would definitely be the way to go if you are going for the high rof. I'll defer to lads who have changed them already but again i think SHS has a good rep. I would also use moly(bendum) grease as its better able to cope with the higher temperatures generated by the higher friction. Just for the bearings and gears mind you. Not for use on pistons or o-rings

As for the mosfet, there is a group buy running in the adverts section if you want to go down the diy route. Disclaimer - its being run by me.
The picoSSR is pretty popular too and is pretty cheap (~€20)- someone was mentioning recently that they had one and were very happy with it.

Eoghan S

Rooky1 wrote: »

To be honest to build a hi speed set up you need to stear clear of hi speed motors. As SD has mentioned a good hi torque motor is what you want.

A neo magnet hi torque motor will spin up too full speed quicker than a hi speed motor.

I would only use a hi speed if you were using 18:1(standard ratio) or 16:1(hi speed) gears.

For a hi speed set up I would be using 14:1, 13:1 or 10:1 gears with a neo hi torque motor (SHS, JG red/blue, Guarder infinite, Lonex, Tienly, Magnum, M160, M170, M180, etc)
Element do a decent hi torque as well as a hi torque and speed one much like the M140.

A decent shim and grease job will pay off no end.
Sort the AOE and mod the piston teeth to help with pre engagement and you are sorted.

Short stroking and swiss cheesing the piston are done to really increase ROF (it would be miniscule increase), but rather they help the piston return and re set much quicker. This gives a much quicker semi shot. It also helps lessen the chance of pre engagement.

A lot of very hi speed setups only use a basic mosfet to protect the switch. I find that AB Fets will give you a much more responsive semi shot as well. Yes it will wear your motor quicker but it is a small price to pay for the performance you want.

Some mosfets can be a bit restrictive. I have a DSG set up running at 46 a sec on standard wiring. I have fitted an ASCU3 because I had one lying around. It works fine but it will not allow the system to fire any faster than 32. I removed the fet and back to 46.
I know the ASCU are only meant to be rated for a max of 30 anyway, but just wanted to see for myself.

Hi Rooky
High torque it is! I'll be using 13:1 shs gearset, so I'll want that extra bit from high torques! I'll have a look around online sure, and see what I can come up with motor wise, be sure to steer me in the right path if I go wrong!

Will sort out the shimming and all that lark asap. As I said above, I'll see how my build goes before trying to up the ROF more using those methods.

First thing I saw in this paragraph was the number 46! Jeez, now that is an incredible RoF!
So you'd recommend I use an AB Mosfet? Bit torn here, I want snappy trigger response and all, just don't want to fork out cash on a brand spanking new motor for it to burn out on me!

Again lads, I really appreciate the help on this one

Southern Dandy

Look realistically a cheap motor will burn out quickly, but more higher end motors are the way to go, some cheaper motors can be an exception to the rule and offer a good balance of cheap yet good, but the more high end motors are made of better materials, better insulation properties of the windings, more powerfull magnets (neo dynium as opposed to ferrite) etc, It is not like it is going to burn out in a couple of months.

Swiss cheesing I think is a terrible idea imo, you are compromising the overall structure of something that moves quite a lot with a lot of force. Lube the tracks on the piston and gearbox.

Bearings for high speed at the cost of durability you would find with bushings.

Radiusing your gearbox shell is a good idea if it is not done.

A piston with mainly nylon teeth rather than metal, if you use all metal and it strips say bye bye to both your piston, gears, more than likely you bearings or bushings. Plastic teeth will wear quicker yes but it is a cheap replacement when they do and your gears should be ok in the event of a failure like that.

Just said I'd add a bit.

Rooky1

Bushings are great for very hispeed.
You should be fine with bearings if you are going up to about 30 a second.
But they will wear quicker.

The SHS hi torque is a good motor for the money.

You will need at least 3 metal teeth on your piston if you are short stroking.

I personally would go with an AB fet, it should be an age before you notice any wear on your motor. My 416c runs an AWS Raptor FET which are known fail due to heat build up and I ave been running that AEG at 31 bbs a sec mostly on semi, 3 round burst or short bursts. I put 34000 bbs through it before the piston failed. Everything else inside was perfect. New piston in and she is purring away again.:D

Eoghan S

ShRT wrote: »

Metal bushings would definitely be the way to go if you are going for the high rof. I'll defer to lads who have changed them already but again i think SHS has a good rep. I would also use moly(bendum) grease as its better able to cope with the higher temperatures generated by the higher friction. Just for the bearings and gears mind you. Not for use on pistons or o-rings

As for the mosfet, there is a group buy running in the adverts section if you want to go down the diy route. Disclaimer - its being run by me.
The picoSSR is pretty popular too and is pretty cheap (~€20)- someone was mentioning recently that they had one and were very happy with it.

Metal bushings it is so, I presume most Version 2 GB have 7mm bushings?
Haven't checked my own tbh.
I'll look around for that grease so, what grease would I use on the piston,etc?
To be honest with you, making my own MOSFET is too much hassle, but that picoSSR looks extremely promising
Thanks man

Eoghan S

Southern Dandy wrote: »

Look realistically a cheap motor will burn out quickly, but more higher end motors are the way to go, some cheaper motors can be an exception to the rule and offer a good balance of cheap yet good, but the more high end motors are made of better materials, better insulation properties of the windings, more powerfull magnets (neo dynium as opposed to ferrite) etc, It is not like it is going to burn out in a couple of months.

Swiss cheesing I think is a terrible idea imo, you are compromising the overall structure of something that moves quite a lot with a lot of force. Lube the tracks on the piston and gearbox.

Bearings for high speed at the cost of durability you would find with bushings.

Radiusing your gearbox shell is a good idea if it is not done.

A piston with mainly nylon teeth rather than metal, if you use all metal and it strips say bye bye to both your piston, gears, more than likely you bearings or bushings. Plastic teeth will wear quicker yes but it is a cheap replacement when they do and your gears should be ok in the event of a failure like that.

Just said I'd add a bit.

Great so, I'm willing to up the cash I spend on the motor, seems fairly essential for this build! The a&k stock motor is next to useless anyways

That was literally my exact view on swiss cheesing earlier on, but I allowed myself to be persuaded by these damn forums to think otherwise, I won't be going down that road for a while at least, if at all!

I'll go for the bearings so I think, they should last a while anyway..

Radiusing is another thing I'll definitely do, the last thing I want is a cracked gearbox shell, the Masada may have a hybrid one, so that's the last thing I'd want :P

Alright so, I'll get a nylon teeth one, is it essential for me to get a new piston, or just use a stock one with nylon teeth? I suppose its probably weaker and has terrible compression compared to after market ones...
Do I need to get one with a certain number of teeth, to match the gears or?

Say your bit whenever you can, if you please! Thanks for the help

Southern Dandy

Eoghan S wrote: »

Metal bushings it is so, I presume most Version 2 GB have 7mm bushings?
Haven't checked my own tbh.
I'll look around for that grease so, what grease would I use on the piston,etc?
To be honest with you, making my own MOSFET is too much hassle, but that picoSSR looks extremely promising
Thanks man

The gears including the pinion, I use castol LM grease.
Gearbox tracks and piston track, Lithium grease , just a preference really.
Cylinder, silicone oil, very little.
Cylinder head and piston head O-rings silicone grease again very little.

The pico mosfets are a great bit of kit, have two of them currently, great if your stuck for space. I think 8mm is a decent size for bearings/bushings.

Eoghan S

Rooky1 wrote: »

Bushings are great for very hispeed.
You should be fine with bearings if you are going up to about 30 a second.
But they will wear quicker.

The SHS hi torque is a good motor for the money.

You will need at least 3 metal teeth on your piston if you are short stroking.

I personally would go with an AB fet, it should be an age before you notice any wear on your motor. My 416c runs an AWS Raptor FET which are known fail due to heat build up and I ave been running that AEG at 31 bbs a sec mostly on semi, 3 round burst or short bursts. I put 34000 bbs through it before the piston failed. Everything else inside was perfect. New piston in and she is purring away again.:D

I think I may as well switch to bushings, just in case I decide to change the ROF sometime in the future..

Thank the lord you mentioned a motor that's available in the closest shop to me-the N11 Outdoor Store! Have to call down there anyway soon, so I'll get that one

Any idea where I can get good quality parts from, for cheaper? I was looking at all the Irish retailers that I know of, and they don't seem to have a huge selection of what I'm looking for! Don't want to have to pay for postage from 10 different retailers!

I think the Picasso fet seems to have good reviews, as well as being absolutely tiny, so I'll have a look at the active breaking version

As for the lipos, HobbyKing here I come! How can you tell what voltage the batteries are from hobbyking? Bit of a noob :P

Again, I really appreciate the help lads

ShRT

You can do a filter on hobbyking for 2s for 7.4V and 3s for 11.1V. Also make sure to check the physical sizes listed for the battery as the photos can be misleading

Look for their nanotech range, they do have an airsoft category but they are the same batts but with mini tamiya. If switching to deans it doesn't really matter which connector they come with although their xt60 connector is technically better than deans but if you are stuck for a batt some day, no one else will have that connector.

Just be aware that there are issues with getting lipo's out of hong kong at the moment for Hobbyking so i would look at their UK or Euro warehouse. Faster shipping anyways and customs have stopped everyone of my packages coming from Hobbyking in the last year and a bit so the savings are wiped out by taxes and charges.

Eoghan S wrote: »

Alright so, I'll get a nylon teeth one, is it essential for me to get a new piston, or just use a stock one with nylon teeth? I suppose its probably weaker and has terrible compression compared to after market ones...
Do I need to get one with a certain number of teeth, to match the gears or?

Say your bit whenever you can, if you please! Thanks for the help

Your compression is determined by your Cylinder, Cylinder/piston head not the piston itself. Compression is probably the most important thing to take care of before anything.

If you want to use your existing one by all means do I'd say, removing your teeth on your piston depends on correcting your angle of engagement, it varies from brand to brand.

As for short stroking gears, Rooky will know a lot more than me, that man knows his stuff. , he is a lot more knowledgeable on set-ups with Hi-speed.

Southern Dandy

Eoghan S wrote: »

Alright so, I'll get a nylon teeth one, is it essential for me to get a new piston, or just use a stock one with nylon teeth? I suppose its probably weaker and has terrible compression compared to after market ones...
Do I need to get one with a certain number of teeth, to match the gears or?

Say your bit whenever you can, if you please! Thanks for the help

Your compression is determined by your Cylinder, Cylinder/piston head not the piston itself. Compression is probably the most important thing to take care of before anything.

If you want to use your existing one by all means do I'd say, removing your teeth on your piston depends on correcting your angle of engagement, it varies from brand to brand.

As for short stroking gears, Rooky will know a lot more than me, that man knows his stuff. , he is a lot more knowledgeable on set-ups with Hi-speed.

Eoghan S

Southern Dandy wrote: »

The gears including the pinion, I use castol LM grease.
Gearbox tracks and piston track, Lithium grease , just a preference really.
Cylinder, silicone oil, very little.
Cylinder head and piston head O-rings silicone grease again very little.

The pico mosfets are a great bit of kit, have two of them currently, great if your stuck for space. I think 8mm is a decent size for bearings/bushings.

I'll stick to your preferences so, I'm not too familiar with the different types of oils out there
Where would be a cheaper place to buy these stuff, like gears, etc, or do I have to go to an Irish retailer?
I'll definitely look into the pico MOSFETs so, they do look quite dandy (pun intended )
Thanks again!

Eoghan S

ShRT wrote: »

You can do a filter on hobbyking for 2s for 7.4V and 3s for 11.1V. Also make sure to check the physical sizes listed for the battery as the photos can be misleading

Look for their nanotech range, they do have an airsoft category but they are the same batts but with mini tamiya. If switching to deans it doesn't really matter which connector they come with although their xt60 connector is technically better than deans but if you are stuck for a batt some day, no one else will have that connector.

Just be aware that there are issues with getting lipo's out of hong kong at the moment for Hobbyking so i would look at their UK or Euro warehouse. Faster shipping anyways and customs have stopped everyone of my packages coming from Hobbyking in the last year and a bit so the savings are wiped out by taxes and charges.



Your compression is determined by your Cylinder, Cylinder/piston head not the piston itself. Compression is probably the most important thing to take care of before anything.

If you want to use your existing one by all means do I'd say, removing your teeth on your piston depends on correcting your angle of engagement, it varies from brand to brand.

As for short stroking gears, Rooky will know a lot more than me, that man knows his stuff. , he is a lot more knowledgeable on set-ups with Hi-speed.

Will have a look now on hobbyking so

The nanotech range is just smaller, right? I haven't actually had a look at other hobbykings so far, so I'll check out the UK one now..

Yeah, compression seems to be fine on this one from what I can tell, though the air nozzle itself has very little air exiting where it should

I'll have a look at the AOE later on, going to The Hostel this Sunday coming for the open day, need my gun working 100% for that!
I may or may not short stroke my gears, but I think I'll purchase a new piston with more metal teeth when that time comes

Thanks for your help lads, can't wait for this to finally begin!