Unification STNG

Forgiveusall.

Just watched this episode. Is it really credible that the Romulans would take Vulcan with 2000 troops? Three ships? Was it that poorly defended?

Second plot hole-they (the Romulans) leave Picard Spock and Data alone in an office with a computer panel?? Is that credible?

Spock knew Senator X (cant recall his name) for 80 yrs but no hint is given he is about to betray Spock. Any decent writer knows you give some hint.

helimachoptor

Forgiveusall. wrote: »

Just watched this episode. Is it really credible that the Romulans would take Vulcan with 2000 troops? Three ships? Was it that poorly defended?

Second plot hole-they (the Romulans) leave Picard Spock and Data alone in an office with a computer panel?? Is that credible?

Spock knew Senator X (cant recall his name) for 80 yrs but no hint is given he is about to betray Spock. Any decent writer knows you give some hint.

Yep looking back on it now with the perspective of the Dominion war it does seem a little bat crazy, while the Vulcans are pretty peaceful.. 2000 troops could be easily overcome even if the 3 Warbirds knocked out any native vulcan ships, the fed would be on them like white on rice pretty soon.

Episode lacks Tomolok too..

IvySlayer

Also how far inside Federation space is Vulcan? Did the Romulans expect the Federation just to do nothing?

Even the Klingons in DS9 didn't want to piss off Starfleet.

Romulans invade Vulcan, Federation declares war on Romulus, Klingons declare war on Romulus, Gowron would love nothing to get revenge

Maybe Sela was a changeling :P

Greyjoy

Even as a kid watching the episode for the first time I thought 2000 was a ridiculously low number. To put it in perspective the US invaded Iraq with about 150,000 troops, that was just for one country - not an entire planet.

The entire Romulan plan made absolutely no sense anyway. Unless Vulcan was 'just across the neutral zone' from Romulus so that their fleet could reach the planet before the Federation reacted the troops would have become quickly stranded. It would have been over in a matter of days if not hours.

syklops

Second plot hole-they (the Romulans) leave Picard Spock and Data alone in an office with a computer panel?? Is that credible?

I find this comment a bit bizarre. Considering it is set about 500 years in the future I can't imaging there are too many rooms with out computer panels.

Myrddin

Greyjoy wrote: »

The entire Romulan plan made absolutely no sense anyway. Unless Vulcan was 'just across the neutral zone' from Romulus so that their fleet could reach the planet before the Federation reacted the troops would have become quickly stranded. It would have been over in a matter of days if not hours.

Given the relation between Vulcan & Roumulus, it might just be that they're close enough & this was the first wave only

Greyjoy

Myrddin wrote: »

Given the relation between Vulcan & Roumulus, it might just be that they're close enough & this was the first wave only

Perhaps but on the other hand Vulcan has repeatedly been shown in the various Trek series as to be (in astronomical terms) quite close to Earth. Given that Earth is the headquarters of Star Fleet you would expect the Federation to be able to react pretty quickly

Also it wouldn't make sense to have Vulcan & Romulus so close to each other and yet have them lose contact with each other by the time of the Original series.

Forgiveusall.

syklops wrote: »

I find this comment a bit bizarre. Considering it is set about 500 years in the future I can't imaging there are too many rooms with out computer panels.

Unguarded-is the point. They were left on their own with computer access.

Cookie_Monster

Vulcan should be no different to earth in that it would have a half dozen ships hanging around on patrol at all times. Not to mention the legacy defence platforms and installations that would invariably be there from pre Federation days which they were highly militarised (ST:ENT shows this often)
The only credible reasoning would be a hefty fleet in orbit and only requiring 2000 troops to hold key government buildings perhaps

_Kaiser_

If I remember right, weren't the 3 Vulcan ships destroyed by a cloaked Warbird when they were exposed?

If so I assume there could have been several other cloaked Warbirds accompanying them that would have handled any resistance once the truth had been realised.

Greyjoy

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

If I remember right, weren't the 3 Vulcan ships destroyed by a cloaked Warbird when they were exposed?

If so I assume there could have been several other cloaked Warbirds accompanying them that would have handled any resistance once the truth had been realised.

But if that was the case and the vulcan ships were being accompanied by a squadron of cloaked ships - why bother with the vulcan ships at all? Why not just send a cloaked fleet of ships to seize Vulcan? that would have made more sense than their 'trojan horse' plan.

The writers seemed to think that because the vulcans weren't aggressive like the romulans that they were somehow defenseless, unemotional != pacifist. Way back in the Original series and again in DS9 you had Star Fleet ships crewed almost exclusively by vulcans - why would they not have 'coastguard' ships purely for protection of their homeworld/system?

The idea that the Federation would just sit on its hands and do nothing while one of their major worlds is invaded is ridiculous. The invasion should have sparked another all out war with the Romulans. Picard or another character could have argued that the invasion won't be as neat & tidy as Sela predicted but that it would plunge the entire alpha quadrant into war.

Kiith

2000 troops, stealthily gaining access to key military positions could do some serious damage. Bring down the defense grids, access ships schematics / shield codes? Not the worst tactic i've ever heard.

helimachoptor

Kiith wrote: »

2000 troops, stealthily gaining access to key military positions could do some serious damage. Bring down the defense grids, access ships schematics / shield codes? Not the worst tactic i've ever heard.

You'd have to assume that in the time period, it would be next to impossible to do stealthily land 2000 military troops at various military installations and for it to go unreported.

Better would be 1 person at each installation

Greyjoy

Kiith wrote: »

2000 troops, stealthily gaining access to key military positions could do some serious damage. Bring down the defense grids, access ships schematics / shield codes? Not the worst tactic i've ever heard.

The Romulans could have done a fair bit of damage to begin with thanks to the element of surprise. But with only 2000 troops spread across a number of locations it would have been closer to a series of terrorist attacks rather than a full-blown invasion. Once the shock of the initial attack was over, the remaining Romulan troops would have found themselves incredibly outnumbered and isolated from their fleet.

Myrddin

Honestly I don't think TNG is at fault here. Unification happened just after the first Borg attack, & happened at a time when Starfleet was far less focused on warfare/defense.

DS9 then introduced the Dominion War & changed all that, & then Enterprise came along & seemed to mess with how we perceived Vulcans in the early days, making them appear volatile.

So in Unification's defense, 2000 troops at the time, did seem like a lot. Sure look at the fleet that defended against the Romulan incursion into Klingon
space, it was what, 30 ships if even?

Times were just simpler then.

Greyjoy

Sorry but even at the time the episode was set 2000 was a ridiculously low number to seize and hold an entire planet. Think for a moment how large the Earth is and now spread out 2000 people across a number of locations. Those 2000 would be quickly overwhelmed by sheer weight of numbers of the rest of the population.

If the writers had multiplied the number of troops to 20,000 that might have been enough to make the plan work. But even with 20K troops they're still spread out across an entire planet. For the plan to work the Romulan reinforcements needed to reach Vulcan at lightning fast speed and for Star Fleet to just shrug its shoulders and do nothing.

Ronanc1

Perhaps they were aiming for a large orbital station similar maybe to DS9 or starbase 1, if something like that conceivably existed in orbit above Vulcan, they could hold the planet as hostage against the federation while shipping in more sizable numbers or ships, installations like starbases are usually packing heavy firepower and its often mentioned in the series the destructive power of orbital bombardment using photon torpedoes etc.

Kiith

I still say that it could be explained with strategic strikes on military targets, with the aim of bringing down key orbital defenses. As someone else mentioned, we don't know how many other cloaked ships were in the area. So it probably wasn't the only force, just the initial surgical strike.

It only took 1 super hot android and a sex maniac to bring down the defenses in Battlestar after all :P

Myrddin

Greyjoy wrote: »

Sorry but even at the time the episode was set 2000 was a ridiculously low number to seize and hold an entire planet. Think for a moment how large the Earth is and now spread out 2000 people across a number of locations. Those 2000 would be quickly overwhelmed by sheer weight of numbers of the rest of the population.

What did we know of Vulcan at the time? What we seen in TMP, & TVH...a barren, almost monastic type civilization. Sure they had technology, but war wasn't the Vulcan way. 2000 troops beamed down into key governmental facilities, could temporarily seize control. The numbers are incredibly small that's for sure, but it's not as if Vulcan at the time was portrayed as heavily fortified by any stretch. I suspect, as there always was, a fleet of Warbirds shadowing the Romulan incursion.

Lest we forget, this was a Tal Shiar operation, not something organized by the Romulan Senate. Cloak & dagger.

If the writers had multiplied the number of troops to 20,000 that might have been enough to make the plan work. But even with 20K troops they're still spread out across an entire planet. For the plan to work the Romulan reinforcements needed to reach Vulcan at lightning fast speed and for Star Fleet to just shrug its shoulders and do nothing.

They didn't have to cover the entire planet though, again everything we had seen of Vulcan at the time lent us to believe Vulcan was a desert planet, not heavily fortified, with a strong emphasis on culture & tradition. I still maintain Vulcan is likely not that far in Trek terms from Romulus, given the Romulans are an offshoot of the Vulcan people, so the Romulans would have likely established a beach-head & fortified their position before Starfleet arrived.

Greyjoy

Myrddin wrote: »

What did we know of Vulcan at the time? What we seen in TMP, & TVH...a barren, almost monastic type civilization. Sure they had technology, but war wasn't the Vulcan way.

When the Enterprise intercepts the Romulan ships after they cross into Federation space Worf has a line about "Vulcan Defense ships responding" so Vulcan did have starships for its own protection. The Vulcans may not have been as aggressive & warlike as their Romulan cousins but that didn't make them defenseless.

Myrddin wrote: »

I still maintain Vulcan is likely not that far in Trek terms from Romulus, given the Romulans are an offshoot of the Vulcan people, so the Romulans would have likely established a beach-head & fortified their position before Starfleet arrived.

This is a starmap of the explored galaxy as depicted in Trek - Explored Galaxy Map
It pops up in some of the Trek films and various tv episodes (at least a couple of times during the 1st & 2nd seasons of TNG). At the centre of the grid is Sol (Earth) and to the immediate 'left' of Earth is Vulcan. All the way over on the far right of the map is the neutral zone and beyond that Romulus. Even if somehow the Romulans' deception worked the troops would be isolated so far from their fleet with the HQ of Star Fleet 'right next door'.


On the one hand the issue of plausibility of the Romulan plan is a fairly trivial one but on the other hand for me as a viewer it was a glaring example of poor writing. The plan was so ill-conceived that it drained all the tension out of the finale for me. Because the Romulan plan didn't pose a credible threat there was nothing at stake for the climax.

Myrddin

Greyjoy wrote: »

When the Enterprise intercepts the Romulan ships after they cross into Federation space Worf has a line about "Vulcan Defense ships responding" so Vulcan did have starships for its own protection. The Vulcans may not have been as aggressive & warlike as their Romulan cousins but that didn't make them defenseless.

I didn't say they were defenseless It's just from what we had seen by the time, it seemed the Vulcan focus was much more spiritual/ritualistic/monastic. They had warp drive what, 200 years before humans, so I guess they knew how to big build guns too...it seemed though at the time they just chose not to.

This is a starmap of the explored galaxy as depicted in Trek - Explored Galaxy Map
It pops up in some of the Trek films and various tv episodes (at least a couple of times during the 1st & 2nd seasons of TNG). At the centre of the grid is Sol (Earth) and to the immediate 'left' of Earth is Vulcan. All the way over on the far right of the map is the neutral zone and beyond that Romulus. Even if somehow the Romulans' deception worked the troops would be isolated so far from their fleet with the HQ of Star Fleet 'right next door'.

It also has Tau Ceti right beside Earth, yet in "Where No One Has Gone Before", Riker tells the Traveller that Tau Ceti is "very remote"...whereby according to this map, Earth & Tau Ceti are virtual neighbors. Obviously the map has some issues, but if it's accepted as canon then so be it.

On the one hand the issue of plausibility of the Romulan plan is a fairly trivial one but on the other hand for me as a viewer it was a glaring example of poor writing. The plan was so ill-conceived that it drained all the tension out of the finale for me. Because the Romulan plan didn't pose a credible threat there was nothing at stake for the climax.

Hard to argue with that, 2000 troops really wasn't an idea number to choose for the writers.

Myrddin

Myrddin wrote: »

It also has Tau Ceti right beside Earth, yet in "Where No One Has Gone Before", Riker tells the Traveller that Tau Ceti is "very remote"...whereby according to this map, Earth & Tau Ceti are virtual neighbors. Obviously the map has some issues, but if it's accepted as canon then so be it.

Correction, it was Tau Alpha C the Traveller was from, my bad.

IvySlayer

If only the Romulans had some sort of technology where they could hide their ships from sensors and conduct covert invasions

helimachoptor

More than anything, why put the troops on transport ships.

a Warbird surely could transport a lot more than those ships and you could send 20 cloaked ones!

IvySlayer

I never got why Klingons have cloaking devices, it's just not their way.

Sneaking around? Pfffft

_Kaiser_

IvySlayer wrote: »

I never got why Klingons have cloaking devices, it's just not their way.

Sneaking around? Pfffft

They got them as part of the short-lived Klingon/Romulan alliance in TOS as far as I remember. It would be seen as a tactical advantage on the battlefield.

knucklehead6

helimachoptor wrote: »

More than anything, why put the troops on transport ships.

a Warbird surely could transport a lot more than those ships and you could send 20 cloaked ones!

Maybe a transport ship has more transport pads? I'd imagine that any assault ship has plenty of transporters to actually beam troops to the surface.

Maybe the warbirds are manpower intensive and don't have the extra capacity to carry a lot of troops?

Forgiveusall.

Im impressed with replies.I doubt writers thought this through. As with many episodes the story is really about the Characters-everything else-technology and tactics is "warped" around the characters so they can do their thing.

downwithpeace

IvySlayer wrote: »

I never got why Klingons have cloaking devices, it's just not their way.

Sneaking around? Pfffft

Someone asks that in DS9 and Worf says something along the lines that in war there is nothing more honorable then victory.

Ronanc1

downwithpeace wrote: »

Someone asks that in DS9 and Worf says something along the lines that in war there is nothing more honorable then victory.

Yeah it's in "the way of the warrior" when they're on their way to save Dukat and the council, they pass through a debris field and their not sure of survivors due to sensors and being cloaked. Bashir wants to search for survivors to which Worf says the above that there are doubtless klingon ships cloaked lying in wait.

Goldstein

A D'deridex can carry 1,500+ personnel. The three Vulcan "transport ships" can only carry around 650 each. Three warbirds would certainly have been able to carry more troops than the Vulcan ships.

One possible explanation is such a fleet of Warbirds couldn't get through the Fed's border detection grid without being detected even while cloaked. Even though that escort Warbird clearly did get through undetected it could be that if it was close enough to the Vulcan ships it would be able to sneak through with them similar to how radar contacts can merge if they're close enough.

However, no matter how entrenched 2000 troops become, it's silly to think they could hold out against the might of Starfleet in Starfleet's territory. It'd be like China attempting to invade Utah with a small number of troops and thinking they can hold out against the entire US military.

I'm ok with them being left alone with the panel. As pointed out computer interfaces would be ubiquitous in all government buildings. Sela didn't know Spock & Data had broken their encryption to it should have seemed risk free.

Great episode but in this case I don't think they thought some of the details through.