Luas Fine - Took my student details - What is their authority?

tubbyros

Hi There,

So I genuinely thought I was tagged on on my leap card, turns out I wasn't! Anyway the Luas guy stopped me and gave me a fine.

Now I wouldn't mind but he was very condescending and rude about the entire thing and accused me of lying on a number of occasions.

Anyway I had given him all my legitimate details /name/address etc... and he still did not believe me! So he asked to see my student ID!

So I showed him and mentioned that I did not want him to take my college details as I was not comfortable with that so I think him taking these details was where he may have not had the authority. He took my Student No/ Course No and College!

Do you know what authority they (RPA/Luas) have with regards to contacting my college (DIT) or if he has violated any of my rights as a Luas passenger?

P.s. I am paying the fine (as I was in the wrong-ish), but I will be lodging a complaint....

Victor

tubbyros wrote: »

Do you know what authority they (RPA/Luas) have with regards to contacting my college (DIT)

They have no interest in contacting your college, they have every interest in you paying the fine. They have a reasonable right to know what you are saying is true. In front of a judge, having those details makes it difficult for the accused to deny it was them.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

They have no authority ... if you dont want to give them your details then you dont have to.

luas / RPA can only "ASK" and its up to you if you want to answer.. you dont need to prove anything to them etc.

if the garda ask then you must answer etc.

Five Lamps

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

They have no authority ... if you dont want to give them your details then you dont have to.

luas / RPA can only "ASK" and its up to you if you want to answer.. you dont need to prove anything to them etc.

if the garda ask then you must answer etc.

Incorrect. They have the authority to request that you produce ID.

3. (1) A passenger shall not— (f) fail or refuse to produce a form of identification or other particular document to an authorised person for inspection when requested to do so where the validity of the ticket held by the passenger depends on the passenger being in possession of a form of identification or particular document,

If you don't then you are breaching the bylaws. You don't have to answer or produce ID to a Garda either but the penalties for not doing so are somewhat higher.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

Five Lamps wrote: »

Incorrect. They have the authority to request that you produce ID.

3. (1) A passenger shall not— (f) fail or refuse to produce a form of identification or other particular document to an authorised person for inspection when requested to do so where the validity of the ticket held by the passenger depends on the passenger being in possession of a form of identification or particular document,

If you don't then you are breaching the bylaws. You don't have to answer or produce ID to a Garda either but the penalties for not doing so are somewhat higher.

that would only be for using a leap card that the name on the card matches the person.

if a luas person asked my address i'd just say "no"

id only give it to a garda.

ofcourse i hear plenty of people giving fake name and address's and saying they have no I.D etc.

goingnowhere

You are legally obliged to give your name and address if asked, it's in the Luas, Irish Rail and Dublin Bus byelaws plus the Railway safety act

No obligation to produce ID or a phone number or anything else when challenged.

If your ticket depends on a specific ID you must produce it, if you refuse or don't have it see first paragraph above as failure to produce renders any ticket depending on the ID invalid

Five Lamps

if a luas person asked my address i'd just say "no"

id only give it to a garda.

The only time that you're likely to be asked for ID is if you are being issued a standard fare or need supporting ID for a particular ticket type.

ofcourse i hear plenty of people giving fake name and address's and saying they have no I.D etc.

Amazing the number of a**holes out there who cost us all money.

To be honest LUAS staff should have the power of detention. People visibly detained at tram stops would be very beneficial.

goingnowhere

Five Lamps wrote: »

To be honest LUAS staff should have the power of detention. People visibly detained at tram stops would be very beneficial.

In theory they have the power to detain but are under instruction not to do so on personal safety grounds

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

goingnowhere wrote: »

In theory they have the power to detain but are under instruction not to do so on personal safety grounds

they can, part of citizens arrest and all that.

but as said health and safety they wont.

Five Lamps

goingnowhere wrote: »

In theory they have the power to detain but are under instruction not to do so on personal safety grounds

I always thought they had power of detention. On that TV documentary that was on recently, one of the LUAS staff said that they didn't. I thought the heavies they have would be handy for that type of thing!

One of the clever things done to clean up the New York subway was to detain every fare evader and handcuff them together 'daisychain' style on platforms. Very visible and drastically cut fare evasion. Granted at the time of this, fare evasion was pretty standard across the board.

Victor

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

They have no authority ... if you dont want to give them your details then you dont have to.

luas / RPA can only "ASK" and its up to you if you want to answer.. you dont need to prove anything to them etc.

if the garda ask then you must answer etc.

Do you really want to get the Garda involved?

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

Victor wrote: »

Do you really want to get the Garda involved?

Id rather give my details to a garda than a luas employee.

just a better sense of whats going on rather than a luas employee taking my name and address and then doing what with it ? where as if you give it to a garda its more official and better recorded.

Grandeeod

Regrettably, you weren't pissed out of your mind, high as a kite on coke or almost comatose on heroine. Therefore you have the honour of being singled out by the great bastions of luas fare protection. Well done.

Hilly Bill

Grandeeod wrote: »

Regrettably, you weren't pissed out of your mind, high as a kite on coke or almost comatose on heroine. Therefore you have the honour of being singled out by the great bastions of luas fare protection. Well done.

Are you seriously saying that the OP was singled out?

Grandeeod

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Are you seriously saying that the OP was singled out?

I am merely commenting on the well documented cases of where the aforementioned "types" are not penalised for travelling without a ticket.

No Pants

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

they can, part of citizens arrest and all that.

but as said health and safety they wont.

I thought that citizen's arrest was only possible if the potential sentence upon conviction was 5 years or greater.

goingnowhere

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

Id rather give my details to a garda than a luas employee.

just a better sense of whats going on rather than a luas employee taking my name and address and then doing what with it ? where as if you give it to a garda its more official and better recorded.

If you fancy being arrested when that garda shows up go right ahead, the US/Canadian/Australian immigration people will love you if you ever try to go there while it won't prevent you, you will have to answer more questions.

Refusal to give your name and address is another offence and another fine.

Grow up and show a bit of respect to the law and those around you who have a job to do.

Grandeeod wrote: »

I am merely commenting on the well documented cases of where the aforementioned "types" are not penalised for travelling without a ticket.

Because they are well known to the staff and have free passes

Losty Dublin

No Pants wrote: »

I thought that citizen's arrest was only possible if the potential sentence upon conviction was 5 years or greater.

Staff on public transport have legal powers of arrest under specified circumstances. Fare evasion in it's various guises and refusal to give your details when asked are included in this.

Tow

All they do with the address is send you a fine in the post. If you ignore it they send a reminder, that all that happens. The son if the previous owner of my house is a serial offender. They even write to his mother now. I send the letters on, they ignore them, but not once has anyone knocked on the door looking for him.

Paris Metro system is good, armed transport police, travel in large groups, trained to be polite. On the spot fines, can't pay - brought to the nearest ATM, still can't pay - guest of nearest police station until someone comes with the money.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

goingnowhere wrote: »

If you fancy being arrested when that garda shows up go right ahead, the US/Canadian/Australian immigration people will love you if you ever try to go there while it won't prevent you, you will have to answer more questions.

Refusal to give your name and address is another offence and another fine.

Grow up and show a bit of respect to the law and those around you who have a job to do.

Where did i say i was not going to answer gardai ? or refuse to answer anything with the gardai ?

i didn't . i'd rather give my details to a garda if a situation like this ever happened.

dowlingm

tubbyros wrote: »

Hi There,

So I genuinely thought I was tagged on on my leap card, turns out I wasn't! Anyway the Luas guy stopped me and gave me a fine.

Now I wouldn't mind but he was very condescending and rude about the entire thing and accused me of lying on a number of occasions.

Anyway I had given him all my legitimate details /name/address etc... and he still did not believe me! So he asked to see my student ID!

So I showed him and mentioned that I did not want him to take my college details as I was not comfortable with that so I think him taking these details was where he may have not had the authority. He took my Student No/ Course No and College!

Do you know what authority they (RPA/Luas) have with regards to contacting my college (DIT) or if he has violated any of my rights as a Luas passenger?

P.s. I am paying the fine (as I was in the wrong-ish), but I will be lodging a complaint....

It looks like if you were travelling on a Student Travelcard he had the right to ask for ID, but if it was a conventional LEAP card he didn't as a student ID is not required for travel with one. Which was the case?

dowlingm

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

Where did i say i was not going to answer gardai ? or refuse to answer anything with the gardai ?

i didn't . i'd rather give my details to a garda if a situation like this ever happened.

Railway Safety Act 2005, Section 132:

132.—(1) Every passenger of a railway undertaking shall, on request by an officer or employee of a railway undertaking, produce, and if so requested, deliver up to the officer or employee a ticket showing that his or her fare is paid and, if the fare has not been paid, shall upon request—
(a) pay, to the officer or employee—
(i) his or her fare from the place where he or she started the journey by railway, or
(ii) such other fare for non-payment of a fare as fixed by the undertaking, as the officer or employee decides, or
(b) give the officer or employee his or her name and address.

2) A passenger who fails—
(a) to comply with a request under subsection (1) to deliver up a ticket,
(b) to pay the fare required under subsection (1)(a), or
(c) to give his or her name and address, if requested under subsection (1)(b),
is guilty of an offence.

(4) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding €1,000.

Section 66C sub1 references S132 so "railway undertaking" covers LUAS. The Gardaí don't have constitutionally granted powers let alone magic wands - they are human beings given certain statutory powers, just as LUAS inspectors are.

dowlingm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Staff on public transport have legal powers of arrest under specified circumstances. Fare evasion in it's various guises and refusal to give your details when asked are included in this.

RSA 2005, Section 66 sub 1:
"(i) using such reasonable force as the circumstances require, remove or escort the person from the railway or any part of it,
(ii) in circumstances where the authorised officer considers it to be justified, arrest the person without warrant, or
(iii) require the person to give his or her name and address and, if the person fails or refuses to do so or gives a name that the authorised officer reasonably suspects is false or misleading, arrest that person without warrant"

goingnowhere

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

Where did i say i was not going to answer gardai ? or refuse to answer anything with the gardai ?

i didn't . i'd rather give my details to a garda if a situation like this ever happened.

No you refused to give your name and address to an authorized official, when the gardai show up it is highly likely you will be arrested and brought to a garda station until such time your identity can be determined.

No second chances

Five Lamps

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

Where did i say i was not going to answer gardai ? or refuse to answer anything with the gardai ?

i didn't . i'd rather give my details to a garda if a situation like this ever happened.

You don't have to give your name or any information to a Garda if you choose to do so.

Why would you not give your name and address to a duly authorised official of the transport company? Refusal to do so means that a Garda may have to be called and thus costing the tax payer further (diversion of resources etc.).

dowlingm

Five Lamps wrote: »

You don't have to give your name or any information to a Garda if you choose to do so.

Can you quote case law or statute which says this?

Railway Safety Act 2005

75.—(1) A member of the Garda Síochána accompanying an inspector under this Part may require of any person his or her name and address and may, if such person refuses or fails to give his or her name and address or gives a name or address which the member has reasonable grounds for believing to be false or misleading, arrest such person without warrant.

(2) Where a person, when his or her name and address is required of him or her under this section, refuses or fails to give his or her name and address or gives a name or address which is false or misleading, such person is guilty of an offence.

(6) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding €3,000 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 months or to both.

Gumbo

dowlingm wrote: »

Can you quote case law or statute which says this?

Railway Safety Act 2005

You have the right to remain silent...............

Grandeeod

goingnowhere wrote: »

If you fancy being arrested when that garda shows up go right ahead, the US/Canadian/Australian immigration people will love you if you ever try to go there while it won't prevent you, you will have to answer more questions.

Refusal to give your name and address is another offence and another fine.

Grow up and show a bit of respect to the law and those around you who have a job to do.




Because they are well known to the staff and have free passes

So its as simple as that is it? Would you like me to elaborate on things? I'd be concerned if you thought it was that easy to explain away my point.

Five Lamps

dowlingm wrote: »

Can you quote case law or statute which says this?

No I can't but you don't have to obey the law if you choose to do so. It was a general observation about being answerable to officials. That's not to say that non-compliance is not without serious consequences (on or off public transport). My point being, if you feel that you don't have to answer to a duly authorised official on public transport, why stop there!

dowlingm

kceire wrote: »

You have the right to remain silent...............

This isn't Law and Order you know.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/arrests/right_to_silence_in_criminal_cases.html

There are two areas where the law in Ireland impinges on your privilege against self-incrimination and your right to silence:

• Questions that allows inferences to be drawn at your trial from your failure to answer certain questions or to provide certain information and
• Offences where it is a criminal offence not to answer certain questions or to provide certain information.

It is important to note that these provisions do not only operate when you are in custody, but they also apply if you are not in Garda custody at the time you are asked the questions.

Onthe3rdDay

Grandeeod wrote: »

Regrettably, you weren't pissed out of your mind, high as a kite on coke or almost comatose on heroine. Therefore you have the honour of being singled out by the great bastions of luas fare protection. Well done.

If you haven't a valid ticket you have to pay the fine but that only appears to apply to those that look non threatening.

When I used to get the luas on a weekly basis it was normal for ticket checkers to get on and ask for tickets only when the passenger looked normal. People were regularly skipped if they looked out of it or looked menacing. I can't say what it's like over the last few months as I stopped using the service.

dowlingm

I would suggest that rather than bellyaching on boards, people who observe inspectors skipping those considered "too hard" to make a note of the vehicle number, direction of travel, between stop x and stop y and time observed, then send that into RPA, NTA and Veolia Transdev, maybe the local TDs too.

If people won't make an issue of it, they can ignore it. If it starts filling TD inboxes it won't take too long before there is a reaction somewhere.

Grandeeod

Onthe3rdDay wrote: »

If you haven't a valid ticket you have to pay the fine but that only appears to apply to those that look non threatening.

When I used to get the luas on a weekly basis it was normal for ticket checkers to get on and ask for tickets only when the passenger looked normal. People were regularly skipped if they looked out of it or looked menacing. I can't say what it's like over the last few months as I stopped using the service.

My experiences are the same until I emigrated last year. Went back to Ireland over the summer and witnessed it again along with the usual anti social behaviour. In fact my first time using it on my visit was a combo of anti social crap and inspectors ignoring blatant fare evaders. Heard the usual foul mouthed tirade and watched the checkers walk away.

Grandeeod

dowlingm wrote: »

I would suggest that rather than bellyaching on boards, people who observe inspectors skipping those considered "too hard" to make a note of the vehicle number, direction of travel, between stop x and stop y and time observed, then send that into RPA, NTA and Veolia Transdev, maybe the local TDs too.

If people won't make an issue of it, they can ignore it. If it starts filling TD inboxes it won't take too long before there is a reaction somewhere.

Between 2008 and 2011 I sent a series of letters and emails to the RPA, the DOT and various TDs. Got the usual guff in reply. Still waiting to see an improvement. Did something similar re Broombridge. Thats still a mess too. Writing letters and emails is a pointless exercise.

Onthe3rdDay

dowlingm wrote: »

I would suggest that rather than bellyaching on boards, people who observe inspectors skipping those considered "too hard" to make a note of the vehicle number, direction of travel, between stop x and stop y and time observed, then send that into RPA, NTA and Veolia Transdev, maybe the local TDs too.

If people won't make an issue of it, they can ignore it. If it starts filling TD inboxes it won't take too long before there is a reaction somewhere.

I have done more than bellyache. I've complained to councilors and a TD in meetings. It's just easier to avoid the service entirely which I now do. Of course someone can argue that I'm running away from the problem but I've found that you're viewed as a crank if you complain too much.

Others will say that it's not that bad and it's like that in other cities. That may be the case but I take a lot of trams and buses all over Europe and Dublin's Red line Luas is one of the worst. Not so much the level of violence, just the underlining menace.