Im just gonna throw this out there....

StupidLikeAFox

So the constant mantra about the place (country) is that high earners should be taxed more and they are not paying their fair share etc. These people arent just bankers etc (who should be held to account for their sins) - there are also people from successful companies who had no responsibility for or influence over the boom/bust. So for ****s and giggles I did some research using the Deloitte tax calculator.

If you are married and earn €300k per year you will pay around €142k in tax.

That means that just one of these high earners can personally cover around:

• 4.7 new teachers salaries
• 5.9 new garda salaries or
• 8.5 student nurses salaries or
• 14.5 peoples annual dole payments

.


Check it out: http://www.deloitte.ie/tc
(as an aside Im surprised teachers starting salaries are higher than both gaurds and nurses but there you go)

Menas

Or pay to keep a prisoner in the joy for 18 months.

NuckingFacker

Shure they'd be better off on the dole.

Banjo String

OP just answered the question.

Sunnyisland

So what exactly are you saying OP ?

kneemos

Sinn Fein are the only ones advocating this micky mouse policy.
Why?
Because it's popular.

Menas

realies wrote: »

So what exactly are you saying OP ?

All the begrudgers need to know that high earners pay the most tax and make a disproportionatley high contribution to the states coffers paying the salaries of a few public servants?

kneemos

Trigger Happy wrote: »

All the begrudgers need to know that high earners pay the most tax and make a disproportionatley high contribution to the states coffers paying the salaries of a few public servants?

Much better if high earners paid they less tax so they can spend it in their local communities.

PizzamanIRL

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

So the constant mantra about the place (country)

I hate when people do this. No point saying one thing if you're going to explain it in brackets.

Hmmph.

Menas

kneemos wrote: »

Much better if high earners paid they less tax so they can spend it in their local communities.

More likely they would spend it in someone else's community though. Sandy lane perhaps.

stimpson

Few people on 300k are paying PAYE so they have many and varied ways of avoiding tax.

Mint Aero

I'm just gonna throw this out there, in your face

sonny jim bob jones

Threatening to single out 'high earners' is always a vote winner.

The reality is most of them already pay more than their fare share of taxes.

There is no logical reason why they should have a third rate, and the amounts these 'high earners' pay in tax always brushed over in favour of some socialist drivel about rates and regressive v progressive..

My current salary isn't far off the amount that many people have picked out of thin air as the kick in point for the third rate.

I got a 6k bonus for delivering a project on schedule earlier this year. It involved ME working nights (past midnight sometimes) and full weekends to deliver with no overtime or time in lieu.

I got 47% of the 6k in my paycheck after taxes. Someone please explain why the government should have gotten an even bigger share of that 6k?

sonny jim bob jones

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

(as an aside Im surprised teachers starting salaries are higher than both gaurds and nurses but there you go)

It is no coincidence that teachers are well represented in the Dail.

So those starting salaries include allowances?

deseil

Most people who earn that much money deserve it and worked damn hard in school and college for years to get to a place where they earn this much, so why begrudge them that. They pay huge tax on their money, and higher tax on higher earners will just drive them all out, leaving us less highly qualified educated people in the country ...exactly what we dont need in the country right now

shruikan2553

sonny jim bob jones wrote: »

I got 47% of the 6k in my paycheck after taxes. Someone please explain why the government should have gotten an even bigger share of that 6k?

Because supposedly it's thanks to the government that you had the chance to earn that money or some other crap.

evolving_doors

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

(as an aside Im surprised teachers starting salaries are higher than both gaurds and nurses but there you go)

O sweet jeesus not again...

1. Do you know any teacher who starts on full salary? Itll be the exception not the the rule.
2. Do Guards get paid during training? Do nurses start off on part time hours for a few years,?
3. Teaching is at least 5 years (unpaid) in university..three for the degree and two for the hdip.
4. There is a high degree of hatred and rabble rousing against teachers as everyones a bloody expert cos they went to school.

UCDVet

I won't say that anyone's views are wrong; but I think it's important we try to be *realistic* about it.

The truth is, in this day and age, almost anyone can choose from a handful of countries to live in. If you are a high-earner, you can pretty much choose ANY COUNTRY, fill out some paper-work and show up. I'm a non-eu citizen, but I live and work in Ireland (I'm not a high-earner though, but you get the idea...) - at the drop of a hat, I can go to just about any country I want and get the same job I have now. The biggest factor would be my ability to speak the language. English speaking countries shouldn't be a problem at all.

There is no doubt that someone earning 300k in Ireland, and paying taxes, is a great benefit to Ireland. Realistically though, raise taxes too much, and they'll leave *unless* Ireland offers them advantages they can't get anywhere else. Family/culture/history - those are always going to be unique, but aside from that, what can you do in IE that you can't do elsewhere? For a lot of jobs and working professionals.....not too much.

Let's look at Doctors. They are highly skilled professionals who command a very high wage. And yet, a whole lot of them are leaving Ireland. So much so, that we're doing studies on it....
(http://www.rcsismj.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/ChalikondaL-Emigration.pdf)

And talking about it in the news....
http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/health-news/irelands-best-doctors-being-forced-2365670

Now, in any particular case or profession, there are going to be a lot of specific issues; but at the end of the day, when the pros of leaving outweigh the cons of leaving....people will leave. Even well paid, well educated, doctors.

April O Neill

Armelodie wrote: »

3. Teaching is at least 5 years (unpaid) in university..three for the degree and two for the hdip.

Primary school teachers do three years.

As for the "hatred", maybe people are wondering why standards are dropping despite the increases in teachers' pay in the last decade.

kneemos

Armelodie wrote: »

O sweet jeesus not again...

1. Do you know any teacher who starts on full salary? Itll be the exception not the the rule.
2. Do Guards get paid during training? Do nurses start off on part time hours for a few years,?
3. Teaching is at least 5 years (unpaid) in university..three for the degree and two for the hdip.
4. There is a high degree of hatred and rabble rousing against teachers as everyones a bloody expert cos they went to school.

There is a degree of hatred because they are always first out of the traps when it comes to pay raises.Also as is apparent from your post they want pay for everything even though they are already extremely well paid.
Oh and the holidays which neither nurses or guards get.

darkpagandeath

Pretty sure if your earning 300K your fancy Accountant has many ways avoiding this

DonkeyStyle \o/

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

not paying their fair share etc.

It's manipulative speech. Everyone should pay their fair share, it's an agreeable sentiment in itself, and it stands to reason. But it tries to leap past the question of what a fair share is. Trying to establish it as something we already know. Really annoying. Like how they framed the water charges as us needing to start paying for something we'd been getting for free, rather than something our taxes used pay for, but won't any more. (what ever the merits of metered use, it was never "free")

steddyeddy

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

So the constant mantra about the place (country) is that high earners should be taxed more and they are not paying their fair share etc. These people arent just bankers etc (who should be held to account for their sins) - there are also people from successful companies who had no responsibility for or influence over the boom/bust. So for ****s and giggles I did some research using the Deloitte tax calculator.

If you are married and earn €300k per year you will pay around €142k in tax.

That means that just one of these high earners can personally cover around:

• 4.7 new teachers salaries
• 5.9 new garda salaries or
• 8.5 student nurses salaries or
• 14.5 peoples annual dole payments

.


Check it out: http://www.deloitte.ie/tc
(as an aside Im surprised teachers starting salaries are higher than both gaurds and nurses but there you go)

And so they should pay a high amount of tax. They live in a country which enables them to make enough money to pay a high amount of tax. I don't think they should pay more though.

UCDVet

steddyeddy wrote: »

And so they should pay a high amount of tax. They live in a country which enables them to make enough money to pay a high amount of tax. I don't think they should pay more though.

But what happens when other countries enable them to make as much (or more) and have lower taxes?

I can't pretend to understand politics or economics; but I am convinced my wife and I could afford a better standard of living somewhere else. It's a shame though, Ireland is a great country and we're both really happy here. But once she graduates, we'll be off.

We're not rich, both of us working wouldn't come close to 300k, heck, we wouldn't come close to 200k or even 150k....but two incomes and no children makes Ireland a very, very expensive proposition for us.

I've had several co-workers who have said the same thing. Some of them stay in Ireland because they have family connections; some of them have left and still hold the belief that they are better off for it.

Mint Sauce

That link just tells me what tax and PRSI I'll pay. Its depressing enough seeing it on my pay slip each fortnight, without being reminded about it.

steddyeddy

UCDVet wrote: »

But what happens when other countries enable them to make as much (or more) and have lower taxes?

I can't pretend to understand politics or economics; but I am convinced my wife and I could afford a better standard of living somewhere else. It's a shame though, Ireland is a great country and we're both really happy here. But once she graduates, we'll be off.

We're not rich, both of us working wouldn't come close to 300k, heck, we wouldn't come close to 200k or even 150k....but two incomes and no children makes Ireland a very, very expensive proposition for us.

I've had several co-workers who have said the same thing. Some of them stay in Ireland because they have family connections; some of them have left and still hold the belief that they are better off for it.

I'll be off too but not because of tax reasons. If I love my job and am competent enough to make a decent wage taxes won't matter too much. One of the countries I would love to live in is Denmark even though it has insanely high taxes. I will be moving because of promotion opportunities. I don't base the decision to live in a country solely on low taxes for high earners. That would be pretty stupid in my field to be honest.

evolving_doors

April O Neill wrote: »

Primary school teachers do three years.

As for the "hatred", maybe people are wondering why standards are dropping despite the increases in teachers' pay in the last decade.

Who said standards have dropped? How did you measure these 'standards'... By anecdotes or from voices in your head?

As regards the increase in teachers pay there WAS an average of a 10% increase ( around 2006 with the benchmarking stuff) ...however with the recent cuts in the last few years there has been an average of 15% pay cut ...now factor in inflation since 2008..plus the fact that it has become a part time profession..the new entrants 'gilt edge' pensions that joe duffy bangs on about is little more than the state pension these days...

Now ask yourself why your johnny has had four part time teachers come and go for their subject in the last two years?

Nobody owes a teacher a living ..but if you want professional 'standards' you gotta pay for it.

How much would you pay an adult JUST to babysit your kids for 9 months of the year from 9-4? and then you ask for them to do a few years in college and attempt to educate them?

When will you be happy , obviously when its not your kids are in school looking for some 'standard' of education...

StupidLikeAFox

Armelodie wrote: »

O sweet jeesus not again...

1. Do you know any teacher who starts on full salary? Itll be the exception not the the rule.
2. Do Guards get paid during training? Do nurses start off on part time hours for a few years,?
3. Teaching is at least 5 years (unpaid) in university..three for the degree and two for the hdip.
4. There is a high degree of hatred and rabble rousing against teachers as everyones a bloody expert cos they went to school.

Ok, I didn't intend to have a go at teachers at all, I was just making a comparison. I didn't do scientific research, but in the interests of the thread its probably fair to disclose the sources I used:

The teachers starting salary (€30,904) was taken from the TUI website: http://www.tui.ie/pay-and-conditions/salary-scales-.1578.html

The Gardas was taken from the GRA (€25,745): http://www.gra.cc/payscales.shtml

And the student nurses was taken from the INMO (€16,688): http://www.inmo.ie/35

So based on those figures, teachers start their career on almost twice the salary of a nurse. Although in fairness after further investigation, once they have completed 2 years service nurses, guards & teachers salaries seem to be more or less the same

StupidLikeAFox

PizzamanIRL wrote: »

I hate when people do this. No point saying one thing if you're going to explain it in brackets.

Hmmph.

Apologies, what I was trying to get across was this place (ie after hours) and also around the country

I realise by explaining this I have also used brackets, which might piss you off a little more (sorry )

Seaneh

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

Ok, I didn't intend to have a go at teachers at all, I was just making a comparison. I didn't do scientific research, but in the interests of the thread its probably fair to disclose the sources I used:

The teachers starting salary (€30,904) was taken from the TUI website: http://www.tui.ie/pay-and-conditions/salary-scales-.1578.html

The Gardas was taken from the GRA (€25,745): http://www.gra.cc/payscales.shtml

And the student nurses was taken from the INMO (€16,688): http://www.inmo.ie/35

So based on those figures, teachers start their career on almost twice the salary of a nurse. Although in fairness after further investigation, once they have completed 2 years service nurses, guards & teachers salaries seem to be more or less the same

You seem to be ignoring the word "student" in "student nurses".

Making 16k per year while training isn't bad going, most people make nothing while still in education.

Mardy Bum

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

Ok, I didn't intend to have a go at teachers at all, I was just making a comparison. I didn't do scientific research, but in the interests of the thread its probably fair to disclose the sources I used:

The teachers starting salary (€30,904) was taken from the TUI website: http://www.tui.ie/pay-and-conditions/salary-scales-.1578.html

The Gardas was taken from the GRA (€25,745): http://www.gra.cc/payscales.shtml

And the student nurses was taken from the INMO (€16,688): http://www.inmo.ie/35

So based on those figures, teachers start their career on almost twice the salary of a nurse. Although in fairness after further investigation, once they have completed 2 years service nurses, guards & teachers salaries seem to be more or less the same

Student nurse and qualified teacher are totally different.

The Gardai also receive substantial allowances to bring that figure up.

The teaching figure is not a "starting salary" it is the salary a teacher on full hours receives. The actual starting salary for a new graduate is much much less because they do not get full hours. It takes around 4-5 years experience to get full hours and then earn the "starting salary".

miss tickle

Armelodie wrote: »

Who said standards have dropped? How did you measure these 'standards'... By anecdotes or from voices in your head?

As regards the increase in teachers pay there WAS an average of a 10% increase ( around 2006 with the benchmarking stuff) ...however with the recent cuts in the last few years there has been an average of 15% pay cut ...now factor in inflation since 2008..plus the fact that it has become a part time profession..the new entrants 'gilt edge' pensions that joe duffy bangs on about is little more than the state pension these days...

Now ask yourself why your johnny has had four part time teachers come and go for their subject in the last two years?

Nobody owes a teacher a living ..but if you want professional 'standards' you gotta pay for it.

How much would you pay an adult JUST to babysit your kids for 9 months of the year from 9-4? and then you ask for them to do a few years in college and attempt to educate them?

When will you be happy , obviously when its not your kids are in school looking for some 'standard' of education...

first point in bold:

can you clarify the 15% pay-cut.


second point in bold:

what has babysitting got to do with education?

StupidLikeAFox

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Student nurse and qualified teacher are totally different.

The Gardai also receive substantial allowances to bring that figure up.

The teaching figure is not a "starting salary" it is the salary a teacher on full hours receives. The actual starting salary for a new graduate is much much less because they do not get full hours. It takes around 4-5 years experience to get full hours and then earn the "starting salary".

Seaneh wrote: »

You seem to be ignoring the word "student" in "student nurses".

Making 16k per year while training isn't bad going, most people make nothing while still in education.

I don't dispute any of that. The original post was making a comparison between the tax paid by a PAYE worker on €300k and the starting salaries for the various professions (as per their own unions websites). I used these figures in order to put the amount of tax paid into some sort of context.



The point is that high earners pay a lot of tax and yet they seem to be an easy target for a lot of people who see the solution to the recession as simple as increasing taxes for high earners - even those who don't bear any responsibilty for the mess we are in. Is that fair?

roughneck

drug dealers pay no tax ,im not impressed ,whats this country coming to .

AlanS181824

Wow.. that's a lot of Dól payments. You'd nearly be better off on it. The way this country is ran is laughable.

Cody Pomeray

If you're (genuinely) on €300k and you're paying that much in tax, there's probably something wrong with you, or with your accountant.

No self employed person in my close circle of friends pays much income tax. Even in the most difficult-seeming situations, it can be ridiculously simple to get out of.

Seaneh

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

I don't dispute any of that. The original post was making a comparison between the tax paid by a PAYE worker on €300k and the starting salaries for the various professions (as per their own unions websites). I used these figures in order to put the amount of tax paid into some sort of context.



The point is that high earners pay a lot of tax and yet they seem to be an easy target for a lot of people who see the solution to the recession as simple as increasing taxes for high earners - even those who don't bear any responsibilty for the mess we are in. Is that fair?

But there are very, very few people in Ireland who make 300k a year who pay PAYE, so the entire premise of the post is retarded.

The reason people (rightly) believe that high earners don't pay enough tax is because most high earners pay, as a percentage, very little tax when compared to middle income earners.

StupidLikeAFox

Seaneh wrote: »

But there are very, very few people in Ireland who make 300k a year who pay PAYE, so the entire premise of the post is retarded.

The reason people (rightly) believe that high earners don't pay enough tax is because most high earners pay, as a percentage, very little tax when compared to middle income earners.

I dont know the exact statistics of how many people earn 300k, so Im not aware of how "reterded" my post is, but the solution most often proposed is a third rate of tax for PAYE earners, which is why I chose PAYE as an example

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

If you're (genuinely) on €300k and you're paying that much in tax, there's probably something wrong with you, or with your accountant.

No self employed person in my close circle of friends pays much income tax. Even in the most difficult-seeming situations, it can be ridiculously simple to get out of.

Im not talking about self employed people.

sonny jim bob jones

Armelodie wrote: »

3. Teaching is at least 5 years (unpaid) in university..three for the degree and two for the hdip.

Not many students get paid to study...not sure why you felt the need to make this pointless point...

Seaneh

sonny jim bob jones wrote: »

Not many students get paid to study...not sure why you felt the need to make this pointless point...

I'd imagine it was because the OP was comparing student nurses pay to qualified teachers with Higher Diplomas and fulltime jobs pay.

Cody Pomeray

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

Im not talking about self employed people.

The amount of PAYE workers on €300k must be tiny. I can't imagine there are many at all.

It makes no sense to be a PAYE worker on that salary. At that rate, you'd be exercising such a managerial level of control over your work you could, almost universally, classify yourself as being in self employment, or otherwise put yourself at greater distance from your employer (contract worker) for tax purposes.

KyussBishop

Ya indeed, if people really think high earners pay that much in taxes, after taking tax avoidance into consideration, that's incredibly naive.

If people really want a flat tax system, then that means:
- Much higher taxes for the less well off, making it harder for them to get by.
- Probably not enough tax intake, thus destruction of public services and spinning them off into privatization
- A greater increase in income inequality, and all the associated negative effects of that (including increasing the power, that a small class of people in control of a lot of money, exert over society - stuff such as favourable treatment within legal/political systems, which can also allow unfair advantages in business etc.)

Stop pretending you're just moaning about the taxes on high earners guys; what you advocate is a significantly different society, that affects way more than just high earners.

clairefontaine

My uncle was on that kind of money, and more. I have no idea what he paid in taxes, but he left Ireland last year, and he's 61 years old, most likely due to the taxes.

kneemos

miss tickle wrote: »

first point in bold:

can you clarify the 15% pay-cut.


second point in bold:

what has babysitting got to do with education?

New angle for a pay rise.
Babysitting fees.

Jude13

I emigrated and there are many teachers here who are Irish teachers. They have left their Irish jobs for a year, someone else gets their old position part time (one less person on the dole I guess) however when they return they get their job back, its crazy.

Family member did a year and a half here getting tax free salary. They work for a state company back home and still got paid 12 K a year from the job back home and upon return is guaranteed his job back at the same level and pay.

I think we should be focusing on this.

evolving_doors

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

Ok, I didn't intend to have a go at teachers at all, I was just making a comparison. I didn't do scientific research, but in the interests of the thread its probably fair to disclose the sources I used:

The teachers starting salary (€30,904) was taken from the TUI website: http://www.tui.ie/pay-and-conditions/salary-scales-.1578.html

The Gardas was taken from the GRA (€25,745): http://www.gra.cc/payscales.shtml

And the student nurses was taken from the INMO (€16,688): http://www.inmo.ie/35

So based on those figures, teachers start their career on almost twice the salary of a nurse. Although in fairness after further investigation, once they have completed 2 years service nurses, guards & teachers salaries seem to be more or less the same

Yes but you have forgotten the question I asked...how many teachers START on full time hours? I'm teaching over 10 years and still not on full hours, but of course people will still say "shur aren't you lucky to have a job" whilst throwing our inaccurate comparisons....

You also mentioned student nurses pay? What is a student teacher's pay? Guards also got a stipend during training.

kneemos

Armelodie wrote: »

Yes but you have forgotten the question I asked...how many teachers START on full time hours? I'm teaching over 10 years and still not on full hours, but of course people will still say "shur aren't you lucky to have a job" whilst throwing our uinaccurate comparisons....

You also mentioned student nurses pay? What is a student teacher's pay? Guards also got a stipend during training.

Nurses and guards have full time jobs.

Balmed Out

http://www.ronanlyons.com/2012/04/10/paying-tax-in-ireland-where-the-richest-and-poorest-pay/

Interesting read if your interested in who pays what tax