Irish sentences v USA sentences

Morris_fe1s

I just read about a poor Irish girl in Chicago in the independent today that was seriously assaulted and robbed. She is left with brain damage and unable to walk, and talk to her previous extent. He is looking at a sentence of 120 years. Personally i think that would be an excessive sentence. 40 years without parole would seem fair and reasonable.

My question is why did Larry Murphy only serve 10 years in Ireland. I find it very hard as a new(ish) law student to comprehend the "whys," of this case. The first limb i understand that a statute will set a maximum sentence that is clear! But could someone explain to me the why or how the law was not changed to keep this monster inside?

Not looking to rant, i would just just like to learn something that maybe i am missing here. It just seems so incredibly unjust to me. The likelihood is that this type of crime will happen again, so what can i/ we do to help.

Bepolite

As a law student what do you think of the US system overall? Is it effective in controlling crime rates? Would the prison conditions satisfy the requirements of the ECHR?

Comparing the Anglo-American system (to which we seem to subscribe, for men's prisons at least) to the Scandinavian countries which do you think is better?

Is how much should retribution factor into sentencing?

You make a statement about recidivism - think deeply here. Are you saying sentences should be long for the purposes for retribution or incapacitating offenders, or a combination of both. What are the implications? Does the objective data support the notion that longer sentences reduce recidivism?

There are some very complex questions when looking at this area with diverse answers.

Cody Pomeray

There's a Roundhall (o malley) book on sentencing, takes in this, but I haven't read it.

see an article by laura cahilane in irish crim law journal
"need for sentencing guidelines in ireland?"

The best resource on this are the law reform reports.

Here are some good ones.

Report on mandatory sentencing 2013
http://www.lawreform.ie/_fileupload/consultation%20papers/cp66MandatorySentences.pdf

Report on Homicide, Murder and Involuntary Manslaughter 2008
http://www.lawreform.ie/_fileupload/consultation%20papers/cpInvoluntaryManslaughter.pdf

Report on Sentencing 1996
http://www.lawreform.ie/_fileupload/Reports/rSentencing.htm

Report on Gazumping 1999
http://www.lawreform.ie/_fileupload/Reports/rGazumping.pdf
lol jk

Bepolite

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

The best resource on this are the law reform reports.

Report on Gazumping 1999
http://www.lawreform.ie/_fileupload/Reports/rGazumping.pdf
lol jk

I was fecking reading that wondering if it meant something different to what it does in the UK!

Morris_fe1s

Bepolite wrote: »

As a law student what do you think of the US system overall? Is it effective in controlling crime rates? Would the prison conditions satisfy the requirements of the ECHR?

Comparing the Anglo-American system (to which we seem to subscribe, for men's prisons at least) to the Scandinavian countries which do you think is better?

Is how much should retribution factor into sentencing?

You make a statement about recidivism - think deeply here. Are you saying sentences should be long for the purposes for retribution or incapacitating offenders, or a combination of both. What are the implications? Does the objective data support the notion that longer sentences reduce recidivism?

There are some very complex questions when looking at this area with diverse answers.

(1) Harsh punishment impact the effectiveness of reducing crime rates?
It may deter a person from crime a to crime b such a fraud opposed to lets say Robbery but i am unsure it counteracts the root cause.
Social economic and political factors i believe provide far greater impact.

(2) Dealing with recidivism?
I would not consider 3 drug dealing offences as recidivism. A glance in the distirct court on a monday morning would suggest that three previous convictions is very few.That could be the same punishment for x caught with 100 units of an illegal substance as y caught with 10m units of an illegal substance. I am unsure that would be a comparable sceanrio.

(3) Do the prison conditions satisfy the requirements of the ECHR?
I dont know; to me the real question here is the question of; Is a 23 hour a day lock up for anyone ethical in this day and age? I would prefer the death penalty opposed to the promotion of mental torture.

(4) Scandanavian prisons in contrast to those in the USA?
Well i think if you treat a person like a pittbull terrier for years they are sure to come out an act like one, or worse than one. That person might leave prison one day and cross your or my path on a bad day and who knows what the consequences could be if you glanced at them in the wrong way.
Do prisons in the US provide jobs and taxes and fuel the economy (in)directly?
Surely reduced freedom is a severe punishment.

(5) Retribution?
Interesting, i think a Judges discretion should focus on:
Rehabilitation/ Protection of the public - "correctional facility as opposed to jail". I think that could be construed as poor positioning of language as it suggests vengeance. Why not just beat the offender with a stick or throw stones at them? It doesnt quite sit comfortably with me if we portray ourselves as a civilized society.

Example:
Young white or black adults in America borne into single parent families in socially and economically deprived areas sometimes have very few proper role models. Sometimes they only perceive what is in their potential reach is a life of drug dealing as a viable option. (three strikes for drug dealing and its 40 years without parole).

When i contrast this young fictitious adult with Larry Murphy i feel a sense of overwhelming injustice. I think Larry Murphy should have served longer/ or have been released with an electronic tag and possibly castrated if there were a humane way of doing this. The exact same as one would do with an animal to prevent unwanted pups. i agree that could be perceived as a little extreme.. At a minimum life monitoring with a probaion/ parole officer - i dont know the answers.
I might add, i know very little about Scandinavian/ American or Irish prisons - perhaps the same as any average member of society.

Valentine1

Firstly there are over 2.5 million Americans in prison currently, over 0.5 percent of the population, that is an incredible figure, its more than 7 times higher then the equivalent average for EU Member States.

The United States Generally has a very different attitude to crime and punishment than we here do. It is a core element of their culture that if you fall foul of the law you go to prison and this is expressed by their love of locking people up for sentences that are exceptionally long compared to what might be imposed here.

Aside from the common examples of relatively minor Drugs offences that can see you imprisoned for upwards of 6 or 7 years US judges seem to love to dish out sentences like the 120 years sought in the OP. I have read and heard of many cases where sentences in excess of 100 years were handed down and recall reading of one (although I don't remember the case) where the convicted was due to serve in excess of 900 years in prison.

People may have different opinions on sentencing but tariffs in excess of human life expectancy make a mockery of the Criminal Justice System in my opinion.

Holsten

The American justice system is completely messed up and corrupt.

They have private prisons, therefore more prisoners = more money.

Horrible, horrible system.

Bepolite

Holsten wrote: »

The American justice system is completely messed up and corrupt.

They have private prisons, therefore more prisoners = more money.

Horrible, horrible system.

The private prison system argument is a spirious one to be frank. The US has been locking people up for mad sentances for many years prior to private prisons, the parole boards are independant and the US is far from the only jurisdiction to use private prisons, the UK included.

Holsten

Just one small example of how messed up it is.

Look towards Norway for example on how to run a justice system.

Sala

Morris_fe1s wrote: »

I think Larry Murphy should have served longer/ or have been released with an electronic tag and possibly castrated if there were a humane way of doing this. The exact same as one would do with an animal to prevent unwanted pups. i agree that could be perceived as a little extreme.. At a minimum life monitoring with a probaion/ parole officer - i dont know the answers.

While I kind of agree with you, I suspect that a lot of people (myself included) can't look at Larry Murphy objectively. The crime for which he was convicted was horrific and we are entitled to think he should have served longer, however, his infamy is in part because of what he is suspected of being involved with- the disappearance of many young women. I don't believe the whole country would know his name and face if the rape was the only crime in which he was a suspect. The disappeared women could not be taken into account no matter what he did as it has never been proved.

Morris_fe1s

I guess there is no shortage of legal work in the US in contrast to here in Ireland. i wonder if Scandinavian countries have excess supply of legal professionals.

Bepolite

Morris_fe1s wrote: »

I guess there is no shortage of legal work in the US in contrast to here in Ireland. i wonder if Scandinavian countries have excess supply of legal professionals.

It's the same everywhere to a greater or lesser extent. Japan is the worst with only 2% of law students working in a law directly - they do get good jobs however. US has more diversity of oppituinity like the UK but it's by no means easy to get into.