General Mulcahy's Luger pistol

tac foley

Mornin', all. I was batting the breeze with my cousin over in OR about Luger pistols [he has three that used to be mine] and I mentioned that they were not uncommon among senior officers of the Irish Free State Army in the early days. There is a fine photograph of General Mulcahy in Justin Nelson's book - 'Michael Collins - The Final Days', wearing his Luger pistol in an unusual open-topped holster. From the size and delineation, it seems to be the 6" barrelled Navy version, itself a rarity of great value to Luger collectors everywhere.

I was aware that General Collin's own revolver had been threatened with the cutting torch some time ago, but have no idea what might have happened to this very significant firearm. So my question is, does General Mulcahy's Luger still exist somewhere, and if so, is it accessible to be photographed?

TIA

tac, formerly of www.lugerforum.com

Grizzly 45

.

From the size and delineation, it seems to be the 6" barrelled Navy version, itself a rarity of great value to Luger collectors everywhere.

Tac.
Just on that point,funnily enough that was problay the most common Luger in Ireland post ww1.
Some of the Royal Irish regiments faced off against the Kaisers marine corps in 1917 or 16[forget where, or which year in France],but apprently got the better of them and many of these Luger types made it back in returning Irish kit bags after Nov 1918 as spoils of war. Whence they were put to use both in the war of independnce and civil war.
Almost every reserve issue Luger in the Emergency seems to have been a marine pattern,so they must have been plentiful.

MRnotlob606

,his son is a heart specialist

tac foley

Thanks, Grizzly - that's piece of Luger lore that I'm fairly certain that NOBODY over the other side knows about. With your persimmon, I'd like to pass it on to the many Luger mavens I know there. You can figure on a Naval pattern P08 - 6" bbl and two-stage backsight - to be worth anything between three and five times as much as a standard Army issue 4" bbl version.

Best

tac

rowa

I was lucky enough to fire a few rounds from a 1916 luger a few weeks back, the toggle action is a very interesting design and they are rightly a revered firearm.

deerhunter1

tac foley wrote: »

Mornin', all. I was batting the breeze with my cousin over in OR about Luger pistols [he has three that used to be mine] and I mentioned that they were not uncommon among senior officers of the Irish Free State Army in the early days. There is a fine photograph of General Mulcahy in Justin Nelson's book - 'Michael Collins - The Final Days', wearing his Luger pistol in an unusual open-topped holster. From the size and delineation, it seems to be the 6" barrelled Navy version, itself a rarity of great value to Luger collectors everywhere.

I was aware that General Collin's own revolver had been threatened with the cutting torch some time ago, but have no idea what might have happened to this very significant firearm. So my question is, does General Mulcahy's Luger still exist somewhere, and if so, is it accessible to be photographed?

TIA

tac, formerly of www.lugerforum.com

Michael Collins Squad pistols

tac foley

Thank you, Sir - that is much appreciated. The .455 Webley is pretty common for the day, but the standard Army issue P08 is still a surprise, although perhaps not as much as it would have been without the informative comment from Grizzly45.

Poor guns are in dire need of some TLC......

tac

Grizzly 45

Anyone ever see the select fire Luger carbine[NO BS!!] in storage up in the Curragh??:eek::)There is proably two or three of them in the world and we have one of them in storage...
Would anyone like to hazard a guess on how such a thing even exists???;)
A challenge for all Luger fans here.:p

deerhunter1

tac foley wrote: »

Thank you, Sir - that is much appreciated. The .455 Webley is pretty common for the day, but the standard Army issue P08 is still a surprise, although perhaps not as much as it would have been without the informative comment from Grizzly45.

Poor guns are in dire need of some TLC......

tac

welcome

tac foley

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Anyone ever see the select fire Luger carbine[NO BS!!] in storage up in the Curragh??:eek::)There is proably two or three of them in the world and we have one of them in storage...
Would anyone like to hazard a guess on how such a thing even exists???;)
A challenge for all Luger fans here.:p

The selective-fire Mauser C96 [so-called 'Broomhandle Mauser] was pretty common, and called the Schnellfeuerpistole it was very popular among the Chinese in the early part of the 20th Century, to the point where they actually copied it [without license].

However, I've never heard of a Luger design being put into series production - trials showed that the rate of fire was far too high to be useful. This needs some work, I think.

tac

rowa

Tell us about the .45 acp luger you used to own tac

Grizzly 45

rowa wrote: »

Tell us about the .45 acp luger you used to own tac

Easy peezy..Us Govt contract pre 1911.The Americans were looking for a suitable gun for the then new 45ACP round and were considering the Luger.
US Army orderd somthing like 200[?] of them for test purposes,and they are stamped with the US national coat of arms on the barrel.Worth stupid monies nowadays.

The selective-fire Mauser C96 [so-called 'Broomhandle Mauser] was pretty common, and called the Schnellfeuerpistole it was very popular among the Chinese in the early part of the 20th Century, to the point where they actually copied it [without license].

True enough,but all the c96 Mausers out in China are genuine Mausers.
It was the Spanish ASTRA that was the copy and flooded China.China reexported them[Mausers] to the US pre 1995 and they have a high collectors value,albeit refinished,and look somwhat "Chinesey"is the best way I can describe the finish.[Think AK type varnish and finish]

However, I've never heard of a Luger design being put into series production - trials showed that the rate of fire was far too high to be useful. This needs some work, I think.

OK.I'l make it a bit easier....It NEVER was an offical production or even prototype made by Luger or any subsidary of Luger in any shape or form.:)

It was handmade in a very limited run by shall we say an exceptionally bespoke gunsmith...Who would be well known to the "folk heros" of the 1920's in America..:)

Answer this time next Monday,if no one gets it.:)

rowa

Hymen S. Lehman of san antonio texas perhaps Grizz ?

Grizzly 45

VERY strong possibility...;):)

tac foley

rowa wrote: »

Tell us about the .45 acp luger you used to own tac

I wish.:eek:

tac

tac foley

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

US Army orderd somthing like 200[?] of them for test purposes,and they are stamped with the US national coat of arms on the barrel.Worth stupid monies nowadays.

Not quite 200. Heinrich Hoffman, DWM's superintendent at the time ofthe 1906/7 trials, noted three, serial numbered 1 - 3. One was destroyed in the test, leaving #1 and #3. Both still exist, and change hands on an infrequent basis for for seven figures.

The American Eagle Lugers - stamped on the breech with the great seal of the USA, are very well-known commercial models produced in 1900 in 7.65x21 Luger calibre - known in the USA as .30cal Luger. 5000 were produced commercially, and another 12000 were stamped with the American Eagle.

tac

sfakiaman

A very interesting article about the Luger pistol here

http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/History%20Book/814ArtyMax1917.htm

I actually knew the Generals daughter.

tac foley

All great stuff, Gentlefolks, please keep it coming!

Best

tac

PS - the P08 [Lange] was issued to submarine crews and also to Zeppelin airship crews.

Grizzly 45

For those who want or can have or afford a Luger in any configuration from "mild to wild."
Check out
http://www.waffen-werle.de/galerie.htm

tac foley

I've just sold my two de-activated Lugers here in UK. I couldn't bear to look at them any more.

tac

sfakiaman

An interesting thing about the Luger was that you could remove the barrel slide assembly and it would still fire a single round. I have dry fired one that way but not with a loaded chamber.

tac foley

Well, I DID fire one, wearing a stout pair of stockman's gloves. It wasn't too bad, all things considering. Just to show that it could be done, y'know?

tac

rowa

The company in the link below seem to specialise in german/austrian firearms and luger pistols in particular.

http://www.collectible-arms.co.uk/showroom/index.html

tac foley

Let me just explain to you how those who live on mainland UK - who already have a Firearms Certificate, remember - can lay their hands on one of Mr Gordon's beautiful live-firing handguns.

For ordinary folks like me, living in England, Scotland and Wales, all metallic cartridge-firing handguns that look like handguns [not the abortions called long-barrelled revolvers and suchlike], are prohibited firearms.

However, they are not illegal to own, as the prohibition can be overcome by special licensing arrangments. I have a Section 1 Firearms Licence for ordinary rifled barreled firearms, but IF I wanted a handgun like this, I COULD obtain a permit that allows me to poseess it, at home, but NOT to shoot it - that IS illegal.

I could also have another form of license that enables me to possess the gun AND to shoot it, but in that case, both the gun and the ammunition MUST be stored at one of [I think] seven sites in England [none in Wales or Scotland], and I have to go and 'visit' it to shoot it. The gun must also be of some historical or technical interest, and must NOT be used for target shooting...WTF you ARE supposed to do with it is beyond me, as standing there, stroking my chin and nodding sagely while discussing its relative merits is not exactly my cup of soop. Nor is shooting my own gun under the supervision of some spotty supervisor, who is there to make sure that I don't actually enjoy myself too much.

Of course, if I lived in the North, I could still have whatever I want, without the hassle of having to wear a tie and suit when I went visiting my guns.

So you CAN have a handgun on mainland UK, legally, AND shoot it, too. However, having commanded troops, there's no way my pride would let me go down THAT nasty lttle route, thought up by nasty little men who have never worn a uniform since cub scouts.

tac

rowa

There seems to be however tac, a lot of pistol being given out to deer stalkers for "humane dispatch" in the uk. I know its stupid but i recently seen a stalker over there who had sought permission for, and granted a licence for a glock 17 restricted to fire a single shot !

tac foley

True thing, Ronan, although 'given out' is not quite how I'D see it. Licenses AND guns are not cheap here, just like in Ireland.

We had one brave spark - a veterinarian, not a deer stalker - call up our club secretary to ask if he could come along to the range on a session and 'sight in' his newly-acquired, two-shot Smith & Wesson .357Mag revolver.

Needless to relate, the CS advised him that to shoot his gun on ANY range was breaking the terms and conditions of the license, and, in any case, why did he feel the need to 'sight in' a gun that was only going to be used at VERY close range on an injured deer or other large beast. If he felt that he was unable to shoot a non-moving and injured animal lying on the ground in front of him, then he shouldn't have applied for any kind of a gun.

End of conversation.

tac

riffmongous

Interesting thread, I saw a 'Mauser P 08' on sale in the window of the gun shop behind my university here a while back. Since as far as I've seen it's easier to get a license over here in Austria and I would be interested in starting to collect working ww2 weapons, would you recommend it, heavily used but 300€ (price is a very big issue), as a starting point tac? Or would I just be better off searching on the internet ?

link, but you need to find it on the page

tac foley

riffmongous wrote: »

Interesting thread, I saw a 'Mauser P 08' on sale in the window of the gun shop behind my university here a while back. Since as far as I've seen it's easier to get a license over here in Austria and I would be interested in starting to collect working ww2 weapons, would you recommend it, heavily used but 300€ (price is a very big issue), as a starting point tac? Or would I just be better off searching on the internet ?

link, but you need to find it on the page

Walk on by this sorry-looking puppy.

tac

rowa

riffmongous wrote: »

Interesting thread, I saw a 'Mauser P 08' on sale in the window of the gun shop behind my university here a while back. Since as far as I've seen it's easier to get a license over here in Austria and I would be interested in starting to collect working ww2 weapons, would you recommend it, heavily used but 300€ (price is a very big issue), as a starting point tac? Or would I just be better off searching on the internet ?

link, but you need to find it on the page

The same shop has a mint one for 960 euros, much better buy imho. Don't forget you cannot bring it back to the republic, sadly.

tac foley

rowa wrote: »

The same shop has a mint one for 960 euros, much better buy imho. Don't forget you cannot bring it back to the republic, sadly.

It's a modern Mauser made between 1985 and 1990 or so. It therefore has no mana whatsoever.

Be a nice shooter though, although you'd have to leave it in Austria.

tac

tac foley

Gentlemen - although this thread has certainly generated some interesting comments, and information, too, it hasn't discovered for me the answer to my question.

So unless anybody out there has an answer, I guess that this thread is dead in the water, as it covers a type of gun that is not common in the RoI for any number of reasons.

Thanks again for all your contributions.

tac

Klunk001

tac foley wrote: »

Gentlemen - although this thread has certainly generated some interesting comments, and information, too, it hasn't discovered for me the answer to my question.

So unless anybody out there has an answer, I guess that this thread is dead in the water, as it covers a type of gun that is not common in the RoI for any number of reasons.

Thanks again for all your contributions.

tac

Tac,

I'm not making any promises but leave it with me. The generals nephew is an inlaw of mine, who I will be seeing over the weekend. I will ask him has he any idea as to what happened or where the Lugar might now be.

tac foley

That is just amazing! Thank you in advance indeed. Not that I'd be able to do anything about such an item - national treasure of Ireland as it must be - it's just that I'm trying to put together a collection of 'stories of myth and legend of the Luger pistol in the hands of the famous'-kind of thing.

Another point that has come up is the amazing number of people with family or friendly connections with the general. I 'spose, though, that with such a relatively small population I really shouldn't have been that surprised.

cruisedub1

Gen Richard Mulcahy.jpg


I know this isn't what your looking for Tac , just thought it might interest the other posters . If I find anymore ill post them but i"m going deer hunting in the morning and i have an early start so i"m not going to spend much more time on the computer. .

tac foley

cruisedub1 wrote: »

Gen Richard Mulcahy.jpg


I know this isn't what your looking for Tac , just thought it might interest the other posters . If I find anymore ill post them but i"m going deer hunting in the morning and i have an early start so i"m not going to spend much more time on the computer. .

Sir - thank you for that image. However, please note that is the very one in Nelson's book, too! Obviously, this jpg image is of superior quality to that one.

Good luck on the hill.

tac

Klunk001

tac foley wrote: »

That is just amazing! Thank you in advance indeed. Not that I'd be able to do anything about such an item - national treasure of Ireland as it must be - it's just that I'm trying to put together a collection of 'stories of myth and legend of the Luger pistol in the hands of the famous'-kind of thing.

Another point that has come up is the amazing number of people with family or friendly connections with the general. I 'spose, though, that with such a relatively small population I really shouldn't have been that surprised.

Tac,

PM sent.

tac foley

A public thank you to Klunk001 for his information.

You are a gentleman, Sir.

tac

dc99

Geezz what a swindle!!!

Sorry, thats what I would have seen many years ago when you get stiffed of the punch line.

I've been following the thread, and got interested in the subject as it involved a luger.

Only now the answer is not revealed and sent in a PM.....

Ok ... I can accept that maybe the info is somehow confidential, but this thread has run and I am dying to know the resulting answer.

Any chance of getting the answer? please????? please????

tac foley

dc99 wrote: »

Geezz what a swindle!!!

Sorry, thats what I would have seen many years ago when you get stiffed of the punch line.

I've been following the thread, and got interested in the subject as it involved a luger.

Only now the answer is not revealed and sent in a PM.....

Ok ... I can accept that maybe the info is somehow confidential, but this thread has run and I am dying to know the resulting answer.

Any chance of getting the answer? please????? please????

Nothing to hide, just a long screed from Klunk abut his family that is not for the public forum, and we STILL don't know where the General's Luger is.

When we DO know, I'll be sure to tell you all - I promise.

tac

dc99

:-) thats cool.

It is like every mystery, people get hooked.

It was the item in question that had my interest and wondering where it ended up (from reading the previous bits).

For instance the reason I have an interest in Luger's is because My father (RIP) when he was a child found a secret compartment in a book case/writing cabinet.

Inside was a Luger in one side and in the other was a magazine with rounds.....God what I'd give to know the history and the subsequent happenings (The Luger was surrendered to the garda when my grand parents found out about it :-( . this I guess, because I was never told and wasn't old enough at the time to ask. ) anyway the book case was supposed to have been owned by a Doctor.....and there ends an unfinished story that bugs me to this day.....

rowa

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Anyone ever see the select fire Luger carbine[NO BS!!] in storage up in the Curragh??:eek::)There is proably two or three of them in the world and we have one of them in storage...
Would anyone like to hazard a guess on how such a thing even exists???;)
A challenge for all Luger fans here.:p

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2012/07/13/george-lugers-secret-rifle/

http://www.forgottenweapons.com/early-semiauto-rifles/german-luger-rifle/

Grizzly 45

Err NO,we dont have one of those here.Pity mind.
Will post the pics and story later today.
Grizz

Grizzly 45

I have to say one thing about us Irish,we can produce the most unique and exotic things betimes out of nowhere if they topic comes up in conversation.Recently I was talking to a neighbour about Winchester shotguns[as you do] and he mentions "Shure X up the road has one of them "Cowboy style guns ..Cept he shoots ducks with it." Intrigued,I asked for an introduction and discoverd sure enough he has a genuine 1887 Winchester lever action 12 GA....But thats another story for another day..:P

Anyways it is safe to say that no doubt tucked away and forgotton in darkest Ireland are proably some very unique pieces of history and gun designs in this great little county of ours.As we have in this case up in the Curragh storage of the TCO 1972 collection.

The pics are from the Feb 1996 Deutsche Waffen Journal article Deutsche pistole 08 in Irland by Udo Troster.

What looks like a standard Artillery Luger with a snail drum ,shoulder stock and cleaning bits and mag loader and wooden storage box is deceptive,as it has been modified to select fire[pic 3].This looks like it was done very professionally and is simply an interrupter on the trigger bar which keeps it disengaged until the trigger is released again. The front& rear sights have been modified to clear the select fire mechanism,which apprently is now making it work only in full auto[at least this was in around 1995/96 when this article was written] due to wear and tear.
Only other modification has been inclusion of a fold able wooden fore grip. The serial number suggests it was a cross over model that was bought privately.But thats where it apprently ends in traceability.

Where or who converted it??

There is only speculation on this,as there seems to be no documentation as to where or how this came to be in the Curragh collection..[Or at least the army aint saying..:p]
All agree it was a professionally done conversion,which could have been carried out by any number of competant gunsmiths.
However, I stumbled across this post on another forum

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4997450

Full-Auto Artillery Luger?
I was reading recently about some old time outlaws and learned that towards the end of Prohibition, a popular automatic weapon was an Artillery Luger that fired full auto, used with the 32 rd. drum and holster stock. I've done searches and could not find any further info on this machine pistol/SMG. I don't even know if this was a German made original, or an underworld conversion. Standard Lugers were somewhat common in that period, though less popular than Colt autos or even revolvers, having been smuggled back as trophies from WWI. Even when Lugers were brand new, that's why Tom Horn died, couldn't figure out how to cock the newfangled toggle link pistol.

But this was my first time hearing about the full auto Artillery model. Any info would be helpful. Figured some of you NFA buffs might have some info. I'd guess these were (then legal) conversions on a semi only gun, there were several smiths performing similar work on 1911's and Winchester 07's, as well as re-arming dewatted heavy MGs. Harvey Bailey, others in the Holden-Keating crew (so probably Verne Miller too, the best typist of the day), all early post-prohibition, high dollar stick-up men, were some of the users of this unique weapon. That's all I know. A conversion job probably would have came from Chicago. I don't know enough about the Luger action to know the difficulty of setting it up for rock n' roll, but those gunsmiths had ingenuity, and a very decent supply of aftermarket hi-caps, comps, suppressors, and so on. I turned up nothing on machine pistol variants from Luger makers. I think if there was one it would be well known as a Mauser Schnellfeuer.
Last edited by .351winchester; July 13, 2008 at 10:35 PM.


I seem to recall reading something to that effect, but took it with a grain of salt. There were several patents, in Germany and elsewhere, for full auto Luger conversions, but none seem to have gone beyond the "one off" stage. I have no doubt that a "gangster gunsmith" could make such a conversion, and there were some M1911s so converted in the gangster era, but a full auto pistol, even with a shoulder stock, is not very practical.

The FBI collection has a couple of M1911 pistols converted to full auto, apparently more for psychological effect than any practical use, but I don't recall any Lugers. Full auto pistols are uncontrollable, even with a shoulder stock. I have fired Mausers, Spanish Astras, and several miscellaneous conversions, including two M1911 conversions (all legally owned, BTW). None would hit anything beyond the first or second round.

Jim
__________________
Jim K


So Is there a possibility that this Luger was a gangster conversion shipped in from the USA somtime in the 1916/56 Troubles era??

Next clue came from Rowa with
Hymen S. Lehman of san antonio texas perhaps Grizz ?

A google of mr Lehman [Actually LEBman]

http://peashooter85.tumblr.com/post/65003404862/the-baby-machine-guns-of-hyman-s-lehman-in

http://www.guns.com/2012/09/26/lebman-1911-machine-pistol/

However there is no evidence to suggest Lebman did this Luger conversion either.
Although it is quite possible that he could have done.
Yet it would be intresting to know how it got from Texas to the Curragh.

I hypothetise that this gun might have been built up North in an Irish community of NY or Chicago or Boston,where the Irish and Italian mafias were together,or falling out which other and there would still have been the possibility of IRA arms being shipped back to the aul Sod.

Then again,it could have possibly been built privately for someone in Ireland/GB in the 1920s.As under UK firearms laws full auto firearms were freely sold up to the mid 1920s[??] Maybe it was some Auxies or "Tans" PDW??

Whatever ,it certainly must have a very intresting history connected somehow to Ireland that is now lost in the mists of time.:(

One thing is for sure it is a unique almost one of a kind Luger.

rowa

I suppose we will never know grizz, for sure, where the luger came from or who built it. It is the sort of thing lehman or lebman did build in texas, paying for it by lifelong harrassment from the feds even though he had not technically commited a crime. Is there no one with any interest in firearms in the curragh camp who could do some research or enquire as to where this carbine originated from ?

tac foley

Fascinating stuff, Ronan and Grizzly, and many thanks for posting it all. You're right, some VERY odd stuff ended up in Ireland during the long years of troubles in the last century, much of it emanating from well-wishers/supporters in the USA.

We'll never know the full stories of these many weird and wonderful guns, that's for sure.

tac

Grizzly 45

Tac,
Think the most bizarre gun we must have is apprently in the Garda ballistic section,is a Mauser 1918 T gewehr.[Tank rifle] that has been cut down abit

A 13.2 mm calibre 41 lb loaded two man crew served single shot rifle,
designed for shooting holes in ww1 tanks.The poor Fritz who had to fire and hump that yoke must have been built like Schwarzenegger.

How that ended up here.....

chem

Hi Tac,

I know where Frank Aikens guns are if your interested? I was at school with his grandaughter. One of the pistols is a .32 pocket pistol. Family legend say he carried it on the day of the first sitting of the Dail.

rowa

chem wrote: »

Hi Tac,

I know where Frank Aikens guns are if your interested? I was at school with his grandaughter. One of the pistols is a .32 pocket pistol. Family legend say he carried it on the day of the first sitting of the Dail.

Frank aiken was an interesting character, and certainly done more than his bit for irish freedom, both in the ira and later in the dail. Although he was an armagh man he lived near where i do here in sandyford.

http://www.theirishstory.com/2013/02/11/frank-aiken-nationalist-and-internationalist/#.UnkCT3BFC8A

http://www.rte.ie/presspack/2006/12/12/hidden-history-founding-fathers-frank-aiken-gunman-and-statesman/

http://www.ucd.ie/archives/html/collections/aiken-frank.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Aiken

cw67irl

Good few Frank Aiken items in the Aiken Barracks Museum in Dundalk, Curator is SGT Lucchesi, Well worth a visit!!!!

tac foley

Next time I'm in the North, I'll have a look, if I'm spared.

tac

chem

rowa wrote: »

Frank aiken was an interesting character, and certainly done more than his bit for irish freedom, both in the ira and later in the dail. Although he was an armagh man he lived near where i do here in sandyford.

Rowa It was when the family went to clear the Dublin house, after Frank died that they found the guns! All in Aikens in Dundalk now as posted already!