Car abroad, can i declare off the road?

snaps

My car is currently abroad, its insured and nct'd. Tax will soon be out, can i declare it off the road when tax runs out? If so can it be declared off the road via the internet?

Atlantic Dawn

From an Irish law approach yes but make sure you declare it back on prior to returning. There is howver the possibility of the police in the country your in having an issue with it, have heard isolated issues of people being stopped at checkpoints in NIRL because of it.

Marcusm

The declaration is that it will be kept on private property and not be parked on a public road which is ambiguous as regards foreign use. The UK equivalent is clear- a SORN is only applicable if the car is in the UK and available for inspection. Another revenue opportunity to be captured in the future, I guess.

biko

If Poland require the domestic tax to be paid (which I assume they do) then you should not declare it off the road unless you're actually not using the car on roads in Poland.

corktina

I know in the UK if there is any doubt, they will lift the car first and investigate later, it would be better to tax the car imo

Stereomaniac

When in doubt, give the government everything.

snaps

biko wrote: »

If Poland require the domestic tax to be paid (which I assume they do) then you should not declare it off the road unless you're actually not using the car on roads in Poland.

as far as i can make out there is no annual tax here. Its on the fuel. I cant register my car here as its rhd, ive been told i can drive it on polish roads as long as i have insurance and nct. I stand corrected though.

biko

Aye true. I had a google there and Poland has no road tax.
In which case I think you can declare it off the road here and keep using it in Poland.

_Kaiser_

Marcusm wrote: »

The declaration is that it will be kept on private property and not be parked on a public road which is ambiguous as regards foreign use. The UK equivalent is clear- a SORN is only applicable if the car is in the UK and available for inspection. Another revenue opportunity to be captured in the future, I guess.

Not ambiguous IMO at all. It's an Irish law applicable to Ireland - the OP and his car are outside of that jurisdiction so are no longer bound by it no more than other local laws apply to us here.

The only issue I'd see (as already pointed out) is the police/authorities where you are now possibly having an issue with it. If so, and depending on how long you will be there, it may be better to just tax it (if short term), or look into re-registering it (to tax/insure it there)

snaps

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Not ambiguous IMO at all. It's an Irish law applicable to Ireland - the OP and his car are outside of that jurisdiction so are no longer bound by it no more than other local laws apply to us here.

The only issue I'd see (as already pointed out) is the police/authorities where you are now possibly having an issue with it. If so, and depending on how long you will be there, it may be better to just tax it (if short term), or look into re-registering it (to tax/insure it there)

at the moment it can't be registered here (Poland), as they have a rule/law about RHD cars cannot be registered. I can however get polish insurance, but I have to have it nct'd (which it is).

CiniO

snaps wrote: »

as far as i can make out there is no annual tax here. Its on the fuel. I cant register my car here as its rhd, ive been told i can drive it on polish roads as long as i have insurance and nct. I stand corrected though.

Hi snaps.
Yes - you can declare it off the road, and keep using it in Poland.
There is no legal requirement by Polish law for the foreign car to be taxed in domestic country.

Is you tax expiring now - by the end of October? If so you can do it online on motortax website. If it expired some time ago, you will need to pay arrears from time it was last taxed, tax it for 3 months, and declare it off the road only within last month of those 3 months of you tax validity.

You are right that to be driving on Polish roads with Irish registered car you need valid NCT and insurance. (tax is not needed).
Remember though that if you are trying to obtain insurance cover from one of the Polish insurers, this is quite grey area, and in the worst case, even if they accept your premium for the year, they might then try to find a reason to reject to pay for the claim. Normally insurance cover for foreign cars is limited to 30 days in Poland.
It would be ideal if you could get Irish insurance cover.


If you have any questions related anyhow to driving in Poland fell free to ask me, as I might be able to help in many areas.

CiniO from Malopolskie

CiniO

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

ere.

The only issue I'd see (as already pointed out) is the police/authorities where you are now possibly having an issue with it. If so, and depending on how long you will be there, it may be better to just tax it (if short term), or look into re-registering it (to tax/insure it there)

There is no road tax in Poland, and reregistering is currently impossible, as car is RHD.
This might however change at some stage, as there is a case pending in EU court of justice against Poland for failing to allow free movement of goods within EU by prohibiting to register RHD cars in there.

Sheldons Brain

There is no legal requirement by Polish law for the foreign car to be taxed in domestic country.

I doubt this. The normal requirement for visiting vehicles is that they meet the requirements to be on the road in their own jurisdiction, in Ireland's case this includes a tax disc which is in effect the vehicle's registration.

If there is any query about the OPs vehicle and the Irish authorities report it "not on the road", then he could have significant hassle.

The OP would be better just not renewing the tax, without declaring anything, and transfer the ownership if he comes back to Éireann.

CiniO

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

I doubt this. The normal requirement for visiting vehicles is that they meet the requirements to be on the road in their own jurisdiction, in Ireland's case this includes a tax disc which is in effect the vehicle's registration.

You can doubt this, but facts are different.
Most countries on the Continent (or maybe even all of them) are signatory of Vienna convention on road traffic from 1968, and this convention regulates requirement in relation to foreign vehicles traffic on the road.
The same case in in Poland.
Foreign vehicle must be insured. Must have valid roadworthiness test, and must fulfil technical requirement stated in the Convention.

Irish motortax is not even part of road traffic law. It's in financial act, and is completely irrelevant when car is being driven abroad.
While in some countries (like NI or UK) this might be discussable, then in Poland it's 100% not required. Believe me or not, but I'm very familiar with their road traffic regulations, and I can guarantee Irish motortax is not needed to drive Irish registered car in Poland.

If there is any query about the OPs vehicle and the Irish authorities report it "not on the road", then he could have significant hassle.

What kind of query?

The OP would be better just not renewing the tax, without declaring anything, and transfer the ownership if he comes back to Éireann.

I think he would be better declaring his car off the road in Ireland.

Marcusm

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Not ambiguous IMO at all. It's an Irish law applicable to Ireland - the OP and his car are outside of that jurisdiction so are no longer bound by it no more than other local laws apply to us here.

The only issue I'd see (as already pointed out) is the police/authorities where you are now possibly having an issue with it. If so, and depending on how long you will be there, it may be better to just tax it (if short term), or look into re-registering it (to tax/insure it there)

I disagree with you here and I was speakign about the form and not the law (which I have subsequently read). The form includes a declaration that it is kept on 'private property". In fact the law requires that it not be used on a public road (for which purposes, use includes parking) but does not impose a requirement to keep it on "private property".

The declaration is not specified in the law (Non use of Motor Vehicles Act 2013) but it is an offence to make a false declaration (cat B fine and/or 6 months in chokey). If the property i used on a public road abroad, it is demonstrably not kept on private property. Interesting, I think that the law would permit a declaration of non use but the form of declaration specified by dttas is one which, in this case, would involve a false declaration.

In that instance, I stand by my "ambiguous" position.

CiniO

Marcusm wrote: »

I disagree with you here and I was speakign about the form and not the law (which I have subsequently read). The form includes a declaration that it is kept on 'private property". In fact the law requires that it not be used on a public road (for which purposes, use includes parking) but does not impose a requirement to keep it on "private property".

The declaration is not specified in the law (Non use of Motor Vehicles Act 2013) but it is an offence to make a false declaration (cat B fine and/or 6 months in chokey). If the property i used on a public road abroad, it is demonstrably not kept on private property. Interesting, I think that the law would permit a declaration of non use but the form of declaration specified by dttas is one which, in this case, would involve a false declaration.

In that instance, I stand by my "ambiguous" position.

Heh interesting...
So it looks like, declaration forces people to declare that car will be kept on private property, while in fact Irish law doesn't put such requirement for untaxed vehicles.

So only option to drive abroad untaxed, is not declare vehicle off the road, drive untaxed, and before returning change ownership to someone else to avoid paying arrears while taxing it.

On the other hand - are there any physical possibilities of being charged for "false declaration" if someone drivers declared car abroad?
Like how would Irish authorities responsible for fining someone who made false declaration found out that vehicle was being driven abroad?

Both myself and a friend of mine drove our UK reg cars here while SORN'd without any difficulty a few years ago so I can't see it being a problem the other way around.

CiniO

Zainab Wailing Android wrote: »

Both myself and a friend of mine drove our UK reg cars here while SORN'd without any difficulty a few years ago.

But as Marcusm pointed out earlier, SORN declaration doesn't require you to state that car will be kept on private property like out RF150 does.

CiniO

CiniO wrote: »

But as Marcusm pointed out earlier, SORN declaration doesn't require you to state that car will be kept on private property like out RF150 does.

Anywhere outside Ireland is private property as far as the irish authorities are concerned imo. They have no way of finding out.

CiniO

Zainab Wailing Android wrote: »

Anywhere outside Ireland is private property as far as the irish authorities are concerned imo.

I don't think so.

They have no way of finding out.

That's another thing. They probably don't, but how can you be sure? It's worth giving a though.

fasttalkerchat

OP, if you're still using Irish insurance, check it doesn't expire after 30 days abroad. Most only allow 30 days in EU and since you're on mainland they could ask for proof that you came there within last 30 days.

CiniO

CiniO wrote: »

That's another thing. They probably don't, but how can you be sure? It's worth giving a though.

Well they can't even catch you out here unless you are actually stopped at a checkpoint so I'd love to see how they are going to catch you in another country which they have no authority over or access to any information about anyone living there (aside from if there is some joint drug related operation etc)

CiniO

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

OP, if you're still using Irish insurance, check it doesn't expire after 30 days abroad. Most only allow 30 days in EU and since you're on mainland they could ask for proof that you came there within last 30 days.

But this 30 day limit doesn't apply to third party cover, which is valid until the expirty date of the policy. That's not something Irish insurers can limit, as insurance law is the same all EU wide, and they must provide unlimited third party cover all over EU.

Marcusm

CiniO wrote: »

But as Marcusm pointed out earlier, SORN declaration doesn't require you to state that car will be kept on private property like out RF150 does.

I didn't say that as the opposite is true! When making a SORN, it is necessary to formally confirm that the car is in theUK and available for inspection by DVLA. I suspect Elliot Sharp Linebacker's SORN was invalid and this does arise regularly with expats reporting being picked up at ferry ports. The false declaration is a worse offence than the absence of tax.

CiniO

Zainab Wailing Android wrote: »

Well they can't even catch you out here unless you are actually stopped at a checkpoint so I'd love to see how they are going to catch you in another country which they have no authority over or access to any information about anyone living there (aside from if there is some joint drug related operation etc)

In practice you are probably 100% right. Nothing like that will ever come out.

But as Sheldons Brain mentioned above, what if there is an enquiry about the vehicle from foreign autority.
F.e. you are caught speeding abroad by speed camera. Their speed camera operator sends enquiry to Shannon asking for vehicle owner details, so they know to who they should post a fine.
At this stage Shannon has a proof that car is being used, and if they compare it with database saying that vehicle was declared abroad on declaration which stated that it's kept on private property, then you are caught that you signed a false declaration.

I know it's so unlikely that probably winning a lotto is more probable, but still - there is a chance.

But again - as Marcusm said - that's down to incompetency of someone who designed that declaration, as Law doesn't require vehicle to be kept on Private property when declared.

CiniO

Marcusm wrote: »

I didn't say that as the opposite is true! When making a SORN, it is necessary to formally confirm that the car is in theUK and available for inspection by DVLA. I suspect Nox001's SORN was invalid and this does arise regularly with expats reporting being picked up at ferry ports. The false declaration is a worse offence than the absence of tax.

Sorry then.
I understood the following:

The declaration is that it will be kept on private property and not be parked on a public road which is ambiguous as regards foreign use. The UK equivalent is clear- a SORN is only applicable if the car is in the UK and available for inspection. Another revenue opportunity to be captured in the future, I guess.

That it meant that you could have a UK car SORNed and drive it abroad.

How would this inspection look like if owner is abroad and there's no one to show a car to inspectors?

Marcusm

Zainab Wailing Android wrote: »

Anywhere outside Ireland is private property as far as the irish authorities are concerned imo. They have no way of finding out.

That's not the case though. The problem is that whoever drafted the form assumed that the corollary of a "public place" was "private property" and has drafted the declaration including an unnecessary statement that it is on private property. If Leo V was to make a non use declaration on his car while it was parked in the Leinster House car park, he would be in trouble as while it would not be in a public place it would not be private property either.

I agree that it's unlikely to be picked up; however, it pisses me off that there's a civil servant or committe of them somewhere think g that they have done thereof job when in fact they have done a crap one. This is hardly at the level of the "change owner" technique but many people may make false declarations without a guilty mind but still committing an offence (which hopefully will remain unpunished).

kupus

Just to throw a further spanner in the works...

I knew a guy who was out driving around europe for abiout 3-4 months around the 1st month his tax expired, but since he was on mainland europe he didnt care.
Drove around with no porblems.

However when he came back to dublin on the ferry. He was stopped at some control on the way out, and one of the first questions asked was about the tax.
He told them that he was abroad and that he had bills+receipts to prove it.

They then told him to get it sorted and let him go on his merry way. Anyway that was a few years ago, so I cant see them be so lenient now.

CiniO

kupus wrote: »

Just to throw a further spanner in the works...

I knew a guy who was out driving around europe for abiout 3-4 months around the 1st month his tax expired, but since he was on mainland europe he didnt care.
Drove around with no porblems.

However when he came back to dublin on the ferry. He was stopped at some control on the way out, and one of the first questions asked was about the tax.
He told them that he was abroad and that he had bills+receipts to prove it.

They then told him to get it sorted and let him go on his merry way. Anyway that was a few years ago, so I cant see them be so lenient now.

That's reasonable, as they put a blind eye on tax after returning from abroad, the same as they do for someone who buys untaxed vehicle.
In both cases you can't really tax it straight away. After purchasing car you need to wait for transfer of ownership to go through.
And after returning from abroad, you had to go to garda station in person to have RF100A stamped with your off the road declaration. But that's not the case anymore. Now you could declare it off the road online when abroad, and you can also tax it again online from beginning of the month in which you are returning even from abroad.
Obviously subject to risking declaring not true with "keeping on private property" part of form.

I did the same few years ago. Went abroad, let tax expire, and came back here (at beginning of February) and declared car off the road until end of January.
However I was lucky enough not to be stopped between the port and garda station and motor tax office.