Finland Vs USA (Teaching)

ZiabR

Thought this was mental!

http://qph.is.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-13185123728ce85a0335f28151102618

We could learn from this too!

Guill

Interesting mental or Larry Murphy mental?

Sonics2k

I've been to Finland, to my memory it consisted of snow, more snow, probably the most potent vodka I've ever experienced and bizarre depressed philosopher types in massive coats. They're all bonkers.


And more snow.

Tabnabs

The most striking thing about the Finish system and the major element the American's (and probably the rest of us) choose to ignore:

Yet one of the most significant things Sahlberg said passed practically unnoticed. "Oh," he mentioned at one point, "and there are no private schools in Finland."

This notion may seem difficult for an American to digest, but it's true. Only a small number of independent schools exist in Finland, and even they are all publicly financed. None is allowed to charge tuition fees. There are no private universities, either. This means that practically every person in Finland attends public school, whether for pre-K or a Ph.D.

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/12/what-americans-keep-ignoring-about-finlands-school-success/250564/

Mardy Bum

The pupil teacher ratio is the biggest issue in teaching at the minute. Thankfully it didn't increase in the budget but it is still too high. Some class have three or four students with special education needs (dyslexia, aspergers, oppositional defiance disorder, ADHD) and teachers are meant to cater for these students along with twenty six other students which depending on the difficulty (ODD, ADHD) can make the job impossible.

lahalane

The last part sounds particularly good. The bit about Finnish teachers being esteemed because they need to have a Masters degree and the top graduates are the ones who get jobs.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

I think at 12 there should be a standardised test for all students. The highest 50% get accepted to different schools depending on what might best suit them. Whether that be a school more focused on Maths or a different school based maybe more around literature or woodwork or whatever. The bottom 50% will be put into death camps to free up more resources for the top 50%.

Mr. CooL ICE

Any reason to post this

MadsL

Finland one teacher for 12 student.
NYC one teacher for 24 students.
Ireland.....31? 32? 35?

MadsL

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

I think at 12 there should be a standardised test for all students. The highest 50% get accepted to different schools depending on what might best suit them. Whether that be a school more focused on Maths or a different school based maybe more around literature or woodwork or whatever. The bottom 50% will be put into death camps to free up more resources for the top 50%.

How nice of you to volunteer. The ricin is in the post.

ZiabR

LordChessington wrote: »

Any reason to post this

Holy crap...

Plenty of interaction with the teacher unless you're a bright student in which case you're on your own

osarusan

Japan is high up on those lists with about 26 students in a class and an unbelievable amount of time in the classroom doing rote learning.

shruikan2553

I thought 24 people per class was a great size. Ive been in 30-32 students to 1 teacher classes all my life.

MadsL

Not sure if it is true but apparently Finnish teachers only teach for four hours a day on average.

Mr. CooL ICE

logik wrote: »

Holy crap...

If you don't know about it, read about Winter War. It's a fascinating read that shows how a relatively small nation of vodka-fuelled farmers fended off the might of the Soviet Union. Carl Gustaf Emil Mannerheim, was an extremely resourceful tactician and Simo Häyhä was a 'sniper' so feared by the Russians they resorted to massive artillery barrages at random hillsides because they didn't know what was killing them.

folan

what is the standard tax rate in Finland?

MadsL

folan wrote: »

what is the standard tax rate in Finland?

At the risk of being a dick...

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=standard+tax+rate+in+Finland%3F


http://www.kpmg.com/global/en/services/tax/tax-tools-and-resources/pages/individual-income-tax-rates-table.aspx


Over half your salary...

folan

MadsL wrote: »

At the risk of being a dick...

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=standard+tax+rate+in+Finland%3F


http://www.kpmg.com/global/en/services/tax/tax-tools-and-resources/pages/individual-income-tax-rates-table.aspx


Over half your salary...

dick! only messing!

I actually know how high it is. I was hoping to get the point across that if you want top notch services like education such as Finland available to all, everyone MUST pay for it. And cheap it is not. However, Finland has superior public services, and they can afford it because they tax the hell out of you. Most would say its worth while, I would ask to see a comparison of the top 50 schools in Finland vs the USA (private and public)

Tiddlypeeps

MadsL wrote: »

At the risk of being a dick...

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=standard+tax+rate+in+Finland%3F


http://www.kpmg.com/global/en/services/tax/tax-tools-and-resources/pages/individual-income-tax-rates-table.aspx


Over half your salary...

Not a million miles off the tax rate here. That's pretty depressing

Tiddlypeeps

folan wrote: »

dick! only messing!

I actually know how high it is. I was hoping to get the point across that if you want top notch services like education such as Finland available to all, everyone MUST pay for it. And cheap it is not. However, Finland has superior public services, and they can afford it because they tax the hell out of you. Most would say its worth while, I would ask to see a comparison of the top 50 schools in Finland vs the USA (private and public)

Eh... I must be missing something or the KPMG site is wrong. It says 51% for finland and 48% for Ireland.

D1stant

Finland is the polar opposite of the US

Its very democratic. Very logical. Everything works, and everyone takes pride in what they do. They look after their sick, young and old. They do not suffer BS. And the women are bloody gorgeous.

They are aloof, but make a few strong friendships rather than many surface ones.

I love the place & the people.

Winter is tough though. Bright at 10:30 and dark at 2:30, -40 degrees. Spring and Summer are beautiful.

jimgoose

2ndcoming

That KPMG list has our tax rate at 48 and Finland's at 51, so assuming the Finland figure is a max rate as well and not the effective rate the key difference is that their taxes are actually going towards proper public services and national development rather than going straight into global banks.

If Ireland picks itself up and starts growing economically again, which it will eventually, if we retain the current tax rates there should be no reason we couldn't have stellar healthcare and education systems.

Except we're idiots and short-sighted politicians looking to stay in power will do a Charlie McCreevy and give everything away again and the tragic cycle will continue.

folan

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

Eh... I must be missing something or the KPMG site is wrong. It says 51% for finland and 48% for Ireland.

look at the way its changed in Ireland over the years in comparison to how much it has changed in Finland.

And try to find out how big Finlands national debt is in comparison to Irelands.

folan

D1stant wrote: »

Its very democratic. Very logical. Everything works, and everyone takes pride in what they do. They look after their sick, young and old. They do not suffer BS. And the women are bloody gorgeous.

Does not sound like Ireland either.

Gandhi

Tabnabs wrote: »

The most striking thing about the Finish system and the major element the American's (and probably the rest of us) choose to ignore:


http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/12/what-americans-keep-ignoring-about-finlands-school-success/250564/

Is that a chick-or-egg situation though? If the public schools are the best on the planet, there is hardly much of a market for private schools.

Celly Smunt

MadsL wrote: »

At the risk of being a dick...

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=standard+tax+rate+in+Finland%3F


http://www.kpmg.com/global/en/services/tax/tax-tools-and-resources/pages/individual-income-tax-rates-table.aspx


Over half your salary...

Better to get a lot for half than nothing for a quarter.

dsmythy

The one huge bit I learned is the requirement of a masters to be a teacher. How many Irish teachers have this level of education?

2ndcoming

dsmythy wrote: »

The one huge bit I learned is the requirement of a masters to be a teacher. How many Irish teachers have this level of education?

There was an allowance for having a masters but that was cut by the government last year so there is now zero incentive for teachers to do one.

My bro and girlfriend are both teachers and both have masters.

Me and herself should probably move to Finland. 570 points in her leaving, honours degree and first class honours masters in Music. Best she could get was 10hrs a week subbing for someone on a career break this year.

I wonder would she tolerate -40 in winter for being esteemed like a doctor.

April O Neill

Sonics2k wrote: »

I've been to Finland, to my memory it consisted of snow, more snow, probably the most potent vodka I've ever experienced and bizarre depressed philosopher types in massive coats. They're all bonkers.


And more snow.

It interesting that there was snow when you were there. What a totally left-field occurrence.



:pac:

lily09

dsmythy wrote: »

The one huge bit I learned is the requirement of a masters to be a teacher. How many Irish teachers have this level of education?

I cant seem to find the exact figures. I have a M.Ed which cost 9500 euro a few years ago and gives me an allowance of 7 euro a fortnight whuch is now gone. I do agree thst this professional development can be nothing but beneficial to teaching and learning but it is a massive financial undertaking.

April O Neill

Devalued college degrees all the gaff in Finland!

April O Neill

And Finland's teachers are as esteemed as their doctors or lawyers.

I can never understand why lawyers are so esteemed.

April O Neill

lahalane wrote: »

The last part sounds particularly good. The bit about Finnish teachers being esteemed because they need to have a Masters degree and the top graduates are the ones who get jobs.

True. I cannot believe some of the people from my school year who became primary and secondary school teachers. It's terrifying. :eek:

biko

USA: "I love you!"
Finland: "MINA RAKASTAN SINUA!"

April O Neill

MadsL wrote: »

Not sure if it is true but apparently Finnish teachers only teach for four hours a day on average.

Jealous. That'd gives them LOADS of time every day to scratch their arse.

April O Neill

2ndcoming wrote: »

570 points in her leaving, honours degree and first class honours masters in Music.

I think they mean that teachers over there require a Masters in education, not just any Masters.

Tiddlypeeps

April O Neill wrote: »

I think they mean that teachers over there require a Masters in education, not just any Masters.

Don't you have to specialise on some topic in a masters?

Unless maybe it's specialising on some aspect of the theory of education?

2ndcoming

Well any masters surely shows a deeper knowledge of the chosen subject than an arts degree and a scraped through H.Dip.

In Ireland there is deemed to be no difference between the two.

hfallada

Finland spends money on education. In Ireland we borrow money to give to the third world to build schools. Because education is important. But yet a ton of schools in Ireland are rotting refabs. There can be up to 35 students in class( my local primary schools has that in most classes). Teachers focus on BS subjects like religion, history ( primary school history is a joke) and arts, but spend **** all time on maths and english.

We dont need to look at finland to improve our education system. We knows whats wrong with our system but we dont have the need to fix it.

April O Neill

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

Don't you have to specialise on some topic in a masters?

Unless maybe it's specialising on some aspect of the theory of education?

Yeah, I'd imagine your thesis would be education-related.

April O Neill

hfallada wrote: »

Teachers focus on BS subjects like religion, history ( primary school history is a joke) and arts, but spend **** all time on maths and english.

More time should be spent on Maths, English and Science, but don't diss the Art! :P I think History and Geography are important too.

2ndcoming

hfallada wrote: »

Finland spends money on education. In Ireland we borrow money to give to the third world to build schools. Because education is important. But yet a ton of schools in Ireland are rotting refabs. There can be up to 35 students in class( my local primary schools has that in most classes). Teachers focus on BS subjects like religion, history ( primary school history is a joke) and arts, but spend **** all time on maths and english.

We dont need to look at finland to improve our education system. We knows whats wrong with our system but we dont have the need to fix it.

This post pretty much says it all about our education system.

Sand

It isn't just a question of money either. Its a question of planning and policy as well - actually defining what you want to achieve, how you're going to reach it, and what money you need to spend to get there. Ireland has massively increased education spending over the past 15 years with no proportional improvement in outcomes - if anything a decline. But if you're going to spend all your money on teacher salaries, pensions, etc you're not really going to get better results. Richer teachers maybe, but not better results.

April O Neill

2ndcoming wrote: »

Well any masters surely shows a deeper knowledge of the chosen subject than an arts degree and a scraped through H.Dip.

In Ireland there is deemed to be no difference between the two.

I know, yeah. I just took it to mean you needed a Masters in Ed.

patty o chair 55

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Some class have three or four students with special education needs (dyslexia, aspergers, oppositional defiance disorder....

Oppositional defiance disorder?
That's a thing now?



I reckon I would be classed special needs if I was in school these days

Capt'n Midnight

folan wrote: »

I would ask to see a comparison of the top 50 schools in Finland vs the USA (private and public)

How about comparing the top 50 affordable schools ?

or take into account that the US has 100 times the popultion or whaterver and compare the 50th with the 5,000th US

KilOit

says here they're not payed like doctors

http://www.cato.org/blog/no-teachers-finland-are-not-paid-doctors