Shopper Refuses Security to Bag Check

420

Hi all i know its been done a million times on this forum but i am looking for a bit of advise.
Today i seen two shoppers enter a store , one had an old granny bag on wheels wide open when entering the shop with some shopping visible from another store , the other person picked up a shopping basket, on live viewing on cctv i noticed one of them putting an item into the bag then walking over to the other person and swap the basket for the bag.. i noticed them swapping the basket and bag to each other more than 3 times walking around the store separately .. i got very suspicious on this and kept on watching... Again i see the person put another item into the bag and they both go up to the till to pay. I walk out onto the shop floor and stand near the exit. I walk back over towards the till they are at , all there shopping is out on the desk (less the one item i am 100% sure was put into the bag) and is in the process of being scanned, but now , the granny bag that was opened when entered is now closed up tight .
I seen no intention of them paying for the item ,,,thats until i coughed really loud.. one of them turned around and noticed me looking at them and their bag.. i made it pretty obvious to be honest... i like giving people the option .. with that they turn to the other person and says" oh dont forget that ***** i put in there ", they took it out of the bag a put it in the desk to be paid for..
I said well done to myself ..lol and walked over near the exit.

As they passed the exit the alarm activated. I turned to them as said 'sorry , there must be an issue with one of the purchases you made and the teller may have failed to deactivate the tag , may i see your receipt' , i noticed straight away he/she was at unease . I ask 'can i see into your bag', 'No you have no right , i want the police here now cos you are accusing me of shoplifting and making a scene in front of everyone and i have all me shopping from other shops in that bag' i said there's no need for the guards and i havent accused you of anything and that you raising your voice is making the scene and i came over to you quietly and discretely, i must check the bag because if you are to go into another shop the alarm might go off and embarrass you even further' he/she got very annoyed and threw the receipt at me and left the store and the partner behind, we spoke more and i reminded him/her that next time he/she must use the basket and not the bag,, he/she apologized and understood where i was coming from and why i stopped them.. i also said that i scene them on cctv putting the items into that bag,

the out come was that i know there was other items in that bag. To be honest i was a bit flustered they way he/she acted ..it threw my off my guard..

What could i have done in this situation? Could i have stopped them?

Because now looking back at it i should have demanded to check it.

420

Kicking myself over it, i was willing to put everything on it,, i even suggested to the person that there would be no problem if he wanted my PSA no. and a complaint form but i knew deep down there were getting away with it.. i think i may have jumped the gun a bit by coughing loudly

420

420 wrote: »

Kicking myself over it, i was willing to put everything on it,, i even suggested to the person that there would be no problem if he wanted my PSA no. and a complaint form but i knew deep down there were getting away with it.. i think i may have jumped the gun a bit by coughing loudly

Also am i wrong to give people a last chance before they leave

420

could i have physically stopped him/her at any point. like if they say 'no' to a search , do they have every right to leave..

420

Gatling wrote: »

Once they leave, they can be detained till the garda arrive ,
You cannot under any circumstances search them let guards do that when they arrive ,

Never tell them your arresting them either that's a big no no ,

so if they refuse the search and leave the store , provided i have sufficient evidence , i can detain them with reasonable force?

420

Gatling wrote: »

Yes , do not search them wait for the guards to come especially not in front of other shoppers

All of this should have been covered in the PSA course

It was but you know how it is sometimes when you start to doubt yourself. thanks for the info too

onemorechance

420 wrote: »

could i have physically stopped him/her at any point. like if they say 'no' to a search , do they have every right to leave..

Anyone is entitled to detain another person who is suspected of a crime. However if no crime has been committed, the dentention itself can become actionable in law.

chops018

onemorechance wrote: »

Anyone is entitled to detain another person who is suspected of a crime. However if no crime has been committed, the dentention itself can become actionable in law.

Ehhhh, maybe why legal advice isn't allowed on here.. http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/act/pub/0014/sec0004.html

Also, it may not become actionable, the only civil action that may be taken is defamation, but more than likely a security guard will succeed in his defence of honest belief under the Defamation Act 2009. Possibly a criminal action if excess force was used I supppose.

onemorechance

chops018 wrote: »

Ehhhh, maybe why legal advice isn't allowed on here.. http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/act/pub/0014/sec0004.html

Also, it may not become actionable, the only civil action that may be taken is defamation, but more than likely a security guard will succeed in his defence of honest belief under the Defamation Act 2009. Possibly a criminal action if excess force was used I supppose.

Detain ≠ arrest.

Pro Hoc Vice

420 wrote: »

Hi all i know its been done a million times on this forum but i am looking for a bit of advise.
Today i seen two shoppers enter a store , one had an old granny bag on wheels wide open when entering the shop with some shopping visible from another store , the other person picked up a shopping basket, on live viewing on cctv i noticed one of them putting an item into the bag then walking over to the other person and swap the basket for the bag.. i noticed them swapping the basket and bag to each other more than 3 times walking around the store separately .. i got very suspicious on this and kept on watching... Again i see the person put another item into the bag and they both go up to the till to pay. I walk out onto the shop floor and stand near the exit. I walk back over towards the till they are at , all there shopping is out on the desk (less the one item i am 100% sure was put into the bag) and is in the process of being scanned, but now , the granny bag that was opened when entered is now closed up tight .
I seen no intention of them paying for the item ,,,thats until i coughed really loud.. one of them turned around and noticed me looking at them and their bag.. i made it pretty obvious to be honest... i like giving people the option .. with that they turn to the other person and says" oh dont forget that ***** i put in there ", they took it out of the bag a put it in the desk to be paid for..
I said well done to myself ..lol and walked over near the exit.

As they passed the exit the alarm activated. I turned to them as said 'sorry , there must be an issue with one of the purchases you made and the teller may have failed to deactivate the tag , may i see your receipt' , i noticed straight away he/she was at unease . I ask 'can i see into your bag', 'No you have no right , i want the police here now cos you are accusing me of shoplifting and making a scene in front of everyone and i have all me shopping from other shops in that bag' i said there's no need for the guards and i havent accused you of anything and that you raising your voice is making the scene and i came over to you quietly and discretely, i must check the bag because if you are to go into another shop the alarm might go off and embarrass you even further' he/she got very annoyed and threw the receipt at me and left the store and the partner behind, we spoke more and i reminded him/her that next time he/she must use the basket and not the bag,, he/she apologized and understood where i was coming from and why i stopped them.. i also said that i scene them on cctv putting the items into that bag,

the out come was that i know there was other items in that bag. To be honest i was a bit flustered they way he/she acted ..it threw my off my guard..

What could i have done in this situation? Could i have stopped them?

Because now looking back at it i should have demanded to check it.

Sounds more like the defamation scam to me. Person makes it look like they are stealing, security guard forces them to stay put (possible false imprisonment) AGS arrive, nothing found, slam dunk case.

Pro Hoc Vice

Gatling wrote: »

Once they leave, they can be detained till the garda arrive ,
You cannot under any circumstances search them let guards do that when they arrive ,

Never tell them your arresting them either that's a big no no ,

Detention, is arrest, no matter what is said, if a person believes reasonably they are not free to go, then they are under arrest. If no proof of stealing then perfect civil case.

Pro Hoc Vice

420 wrote: »

so if they refuse the search and leave the store , provided i have sufficient evidence , i can detain them with reasonable force?

Every citizen has the right to detain a person if they reasonable suspect that a arrest able offence has been committed. If the person is wrong serious issue.

Cody Pomeray

OP this is not a criticism of you, but I don't know what kind of store you're working for that hasn't explained this stuff to you.

usually the rule is to tell users to go to see a solicitor. For your own personal benefit, I think you need to make it clear to the store that you are uncertain about the law to the extent that it has been explained to you, and would like further guidance.

Companies expend huge sums of money on c.c.t.v. and security staff wages, it seems like a false economy if they don't bother to instruct their staff properly.

It's not even that complicated. As a general rule of thumb to your average security person, I would say never intervene until you have physically seen someone stealing with your own eyes.

It doesn't matter how suspicious you are, and it doesn't matter if a theft has been reported by a member of the public. Trust No One, said the X Files tagline, whose creators had obviously worked as store detectives at some point.

dats_right

chops018 wrote: »

Ehhhh, maybe why legal advice isn't allowed on here.. http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/act/pub/0014/sec0004.html

Also, it may not become actionable, the only civil action that may be taken is defamation, but more than likely a security guard will succeed in his defence of honest belief under the Defamation Act 2009. Possibly a criminal action if excess force was used I supppose.

Nonsense. Two words: False Imprisonment

420

As for the criticism , i did come here for the advice, negative/positive it's all good, it made me focus more.

nuac

onemorechance wrote: »

Anyone is entitled to detain another person who is suspected of a crime. However if no crime has been committed, the dentention itself can become actionable in law.

Pls don't start the "citizen's arrest" stuff

This security operative can seek legal advice from the employer

nuac

onemorechance wrote: »

Detain ≠ arrest.

detain very much = arrest

onemorechance

A person preventing a suspected thief from fleeing while waiting for the guards to arrive would be detaining that suspected thief.

234

Which constitutes a citizens arrest. There is no other power that an ordinary citizen can exercise.

Pro Hoc Vice

onemorechance wrote: »

A person preventing a suspected thief from fleeing while waiting for the guards to arrive would be detaining that suspected thief.

How are they going to detain him. If you or I detain or arrest anyone with out proper authority then that person can sue.

No one has a right to detain anyone or arrest anyone, except as allowed by law. The usual way is to arrest with a warrant or under powers contained in Criminal Law Act 1997.

Gardai have certain statutory powers to detain a person without arrest under RTA and Misuse if Drugs.

But if a citizen stops a person from going about their business, they could be in difficulty.

hullaballoo

It's amazing how few people are aware of what infosys just posted. Most public liability insurance policies include cover for wrongful arrest/detention for that reason.

If you're not a cop, don't go around arresting/detaining people.

McCongo

infosys wrote: »

Every citizen has the right to detain a person if they reasonable suspect that a arrest able offence has been committed. If the person is wrong serious issue.

Since when is the power to arrest confined to citizens?

Pro Hoc Vice

McCongo wrote: »

Since when is the power to arrest confined to citizens?

I use citizen in its widest meaning. But to clarify any person may arrest.

Cold Sore

infosys wrote: »

I use citizen in its widest meaning. But to clarify any person may arrest.

What is the wide sense of citizen? It seems to me that whether or not someone is a citizen is a yes or no type of situation.

Pro Hoc Vice

Cold Sore wrote: »

What is the wide sense of citizen? It seems to me that whether or not someone is a citizen is a yes or no type of situation.

Article 40 .1 is addressed at Citizens, but has been interpreted as including all persons even non citizens. I used the term Citizen as all persons, and not just in the restrictive meaning of nationality status. Also considering the common term is citizens arrest, I used that term.

Cold Sore

infosys wrote: »

Article 40 .1 is addressed at Citizens, but has been interpreted as including all persons even non citizens. I used the term Citizen as all persons, and not just in the restrictive meaning of nationality status. Also considering the common term is citizens arrest, I used that term.

Using an ambiguous word in a criminal context? If only a citizen could arrest the fact of the arresting person being a citizen would have to be established if challenged. the benefit of any doubt always goes to the defendant.

Pro Hoc Vice

Cold Sore wrote: »

Using an ambiguous word in a criminal context? If only a citizen could arrest the fact of the arresting person being a citizen would have to be established if challenged. the benefit of any doubt always goes to the defendant.

I am not saying only a Citizen could arrest, in fact I accept it was sloppy to use the word citizen in the context, and changed it to person. I explained why I used the term. So the issue is?

Bepolite

Cold Sore wrote: »

Using an ambiguous word in a criminal context? If only a citizen could arrest the fact of the arresting person being a citizen would have to be established if challenged. the benefit of any doubt always goes to the defendant.

Even the Supreme Court have been guilty of using this interchangably with person, the Constitution does the same. This isn't an article on the criminal law or somewhere to get legal advice, there's no need to be overly pedantic.

CZ 453

420 wrote: »

Hi all i know its been done a million times on this forum but i am looking for a bit of advise.
Today i seen two shoppers enter a store , one had an old granny bag on wheels wide open when entering the shop with some shopping visible from another store , the other person picked up a shopping basket, on live viewing on cctv i noticed one of them putting an item into the bag then walking over to the other person and swap the basket for the bag.. i noticed them swapping the basket and bag to each other more than 3 times walking around the store separately .. i got very suspicious on this and kept on watching... Again i see the person put another item into the bag and they both go up to the till to pay. I walk out onto the shop floor and stand near the exit. I walk back over towards the till they are at , all there shopping is out on the desk (less the one item i am 100% sure was put into the bag) and is in the process of being scanned, but now , the granny bag that was opened when entered is now closed up tight .
I seen no intention of them paying for the item ,,,thats until i coughed really loud.. one of them turned around and noticed me looking at them and their bag.. i made it pretty obvious to be honest... i like giving people the option .. with that they turn to the other person and says" oh dont forget that ***** i put in there ", they took it out of the bag a put it in the desk to be paid for..
I said well done to myself ..lol and walked over near the exit.

As they passed the exit the alarm activated. I turned to them as said 'sorry , there must be an issue with one of the purchases you made and the teller may have failed to deactivate the tag , may i see your receipt' , i noticed straight away he/she was at unease . I ask 'can i see into your bag', 'No you have no right , i want the police here now cos you are accusing me of shoplifting and making a scene in front of everyone and i have all me shopping from other shops in that bag' i said there's no need for the guards and i havent accused you of anything and that you raising your voice is making the scene and i came over to you quietly and discretely, i must check the bag because if you are to go into another shop the alarm might go off and embarrass you even further' he/she got very annoyed and threw the receipt at me and left the store and the partner behind, we spoke more and i reminded him/her that next time he/she must use the basket and not the bag,, he/she apologized and understood where i was coming from and why i stopped them.. i also said that i scene them on cctv putting the items into that bag,

the out come was that i know there was other items in that bag. To be honest i was a bit flustered they way he/she acted ..it threw my off my guard..

What could i have done in this situation? Could i have stopped them?

Because now looking back at it i should have demanded to check it.

Hi,
Did you have another security guard on site with you?

fasttalkerchat

Surprised no one has been able to answer this yet. Only a guard can make an arrest. Security/staff can hold someone when they have committed an offence which carries a maximum sentence greater than 2 years. Max for shoplifting is 2 years so nothing can be done.

The way around this is, and only when you're sure, to hassle the offender without making contact until the hit or spit at you. This is surprisingly quick, often within 30 seconds for the typical scumbag.
Then you can pin them and wait for guards to arrive.
Always keep them in a public area and under CCTV if possible.

Also, OP. You have already given away where you work. I know that they will let you cross the line because it is your direct employer who will go to court.

Corkbah

OP...essentially you played a game of "call my bluff" with an experienced shoplifting team.

you were right to let the person go (in my opinion) - if they shoplift they might get a couple of quids worth of gear, if they are caught ...brilliant, if they are wrongfully accused they can and will sue.

just for your information ... the reason behind them raising their voice and saying that you are embarrassing them is so "independent" witnesses can hear it - take it as lesson learned and hopefully you'll remember their faces (no harm in printing out the faces from a screen grab (for your own records of "suspects") - never show these images to anyone

Cody Pomeray

Corkbah wrote: »

just for your information ... the reason behind them raising their voice and saying that you are embarrassing them is so "independent" witnesses can hear it

If I were ever accused of shoplifting, I would probably do the same.

The purpose would be to make sure that the store manager sees his retail career flash before his eyes, more than anything else.

So long as the legal system operates with public confidence, then threatening legal action may be a valid exercise in private citizens living up to their responsibilities as law abiding, law enforcing citizens. The law is ours.

keano007

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Surprised no one has been able to answer this yet. Only a guard can make an arrest. Security/staff can hold someone when they have committed an offence which carries a maximum sentence greater than 2 years. Max for shoplifting is 2 years so nothing can be done.

The way around this is, and only when you're sure, to hassle the offender without making contact until the hit or spit at you. This is surprisingly quick, often within 30 seconds for the typical scumbag.
Then you can pin them and wait for guards to arrive.
Always keep them in a public area and under CCTV if possible.

Also, OP. You have already given away where you work. I know that they will let you cross the line because it is your direct employer who will go to court.

You couldn't be more wrong and I dread to think you might work in the security industry. Firstly Theft is an indictable offence and carries 5 years. Secondly, your idea of encouraging a suspected shoplifter to spit or hit you is ridiculous. I'd love to know how you'd "hassle" someone.....

Pro Hoc Vice

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Surprised no one has been able to answer this yet. Only a guard can make an arrest. Security/staff can hold someone when they have committed an offence which carries a maximum sentence greater than 2 years. Max for shoplifting is 2 years so nothing can be done.

The way around this is, and only when you're sure, to hassle the offender without making contact until the hit or spit at you. This is surprisingly quick, often within 30 seconds for the typical scumbag.
Then you can pin them and wait for guards to arrive.
Always keep them in a public area and under CCTV if possible.

Also, OP. You have already given away where you work. I know that they will let you cross the line because it is your direct employer who will go to court.

Any person (not just a citizen) can detain/arrest any person who they suspect is guilty of an offence which is an arrest-able offence (that is an offence carrying a sentence greater than 5 years). See section 4 Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act, 2001, I believe it carries max sentence of 10 years.

This has been mentioned before.

fasttalkerchat

infosys wrote: »

Any person (not just a citizen) can detain/arrest any person who they suspect is guilty of an offence which is an arrest-able offence (that is an offence carrying a sentence greater than 5 years). See section 4 Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act, 2001, I believe it carries max sentence of 10 years.

This has been mentioned before.

Maybe it was 5 years.
But if shoplifting is 10 years why can't someone be legally held for shoplifting like in the USA?

keano007

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Maybe it was 5 years.
But if shoplifting is 10 years why can't someone be legally held for shoplifting like in the USA?

Thats the point they can and do get detained everyday up and down the country

420

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Surprised no one has been able to answer this yet. Only a guard can make an arrest. Security/staff can hold someone when they have committed an offence which carries a maximum sentence greater than 2 years. Max for shoplifting is 2 years so nothing can be done.

The way around this is, and only when you're sure, to hassle the offender without making contact until the hit or spit at you. This is surprisingly quick, often within 30 seconds for the typical scumbag.
Then you can pin them and wait for guards to arrive.
Always keep them in a public area and under CCTV if possible.

Also, OP. You have already given away where you work. I know that they will let you cross the line because it is your direct employer who will go to court.

I have given away where i work. never mentioned where that was. Its a shop of course!

hullaballoo

This thread has run its course.

So many people have posted in this thread who have misunderstood the legal and practical position with regard to the law that allowing the discussion to continue is only going to cause more harm than good.

If people are in doubt about whether they can arrest/detain someone, speak with a professionally qualified lawyer.

Let me just add that the costs to you or your employer have the potential to be far greater than the value of the pair of socks or whatever you think the person might have stolen if you wrongfully arrest/detain/imprison someone.