THE DREADED DOCKLANDS PHOTO PERMIT!

malene

Anyone have to go through the rigmarole of having to apply for a stupid permit. I was doing a test shoot with a friend of mine, had flash on tripod and shooting away at the area outside Bord Gais Energy Theatre with the red spikes coming out of the ground.

Security guy comes over (in fairness he was ok) and said I needed permit etc as it was private land and blah blah. I wanted to shoot for another hour, but offered to cut it down to 10 more minutes and he said ok. I didn't get all the shots I wanted, but my argument was it was for a private portfolio and not commercial use, which is the truth. It's a great location, but jeez do I have to email in the Dublin Docklands Authority every bloody time I want to do shoot there? Seems ridiculous. Here is another link to person with similar experience.

http://uncommonland.wordpress.com/2012/06/26/ddda-photograph-permit/


p.s I looked here

http://www.ddda.ie/index.jsp?p=112&n=646

and at the bottom it says..

Funded by the Irish Government and part financed by the European Union under the National Development Plan

like how is that private then?

AngryHippie

and now owned by NAMA, along with the rest of HC's portfolio
http://www.irishtimes.com/business/nama-to-take-control-of-o2-arena-as-it-moves-against-harry-crosbie-empire-1.1366449

Shoot what you like. Tell him to call the cops.

magicbastarder

am i to understand now - given the reactions above - that anything 'owned by the people/the state/NAMA' should be public access?

i'll start a photo shoot in the middle of the national museum, and tell the staff there to call the cops when they object.

pixbyjohn

AngryHippie wrote: »

and now owned by NAMA, along with the rest of HC's portfolio
http://www.irishtimes.com/business/nama-to-take-control-of-o2-arena-as-it-moves-against-harry-crosbie-empire-1.1366449

Shoot what you like. Tell him to call the cops.

Not great advice

malene

on a seperate topic, nama has done more to increase unemployment than any other state agency. Great work! Jeez!

andy_g

Have had a similar experience while on one of the boards photo walks, under public order act section 41 if you are not a commercial photographer you will be fine.

if you compare to a local tourist taking a photo there and explain its the same they normally leave you alone.

Also cyclists arnt meant to cycle through there so point that out too

DaireQuinlan

andy_g wrote: »

public order act section 41

cite ?

AFAIK you're incorrect anyway. It's private land. You can be asked to stop taking photographs, and if you refuse, you can be removed from the area, using whatever force is necessary. In practice of course it rarely gets to that point.

Now whether or not this is actually a GOOD thing is another point, personally I think it's completely daft, but that's the law as I understand it at the moment.

slang61

hi there....
we organised a photowalk with the camera club last week.. meeting in that exact area (bord gais theatre where the red spikes are)
we were never even approached by anyone and to me it is definitely a public area, access to bars and hotels etc.....
i would agree with previous poster...if they want you to leave tell them to call the guards. you are not infringing on any laws.

DaireQuinlan

slang61 wrote: »

i would agree with previous poster...if they want you to leave tell them to call the guards. you are not infringing on any laws.

you're not breaking any laws up until the point they ask you to stop taking pictures and you refuse. at that point you become guilty of trespass, and the landowner or agent acting for the landowner (a security guard for example) has the authority to remove you from the area, or have the gardai remove you.
the problem I think is that there is no distinction in statute or case law that distinguishes private land like the ifsc or docklands from, say, the inside of your house, at least in terms of trespass.
also, IANAL, i'd say knock it over to the legal forum if you want more clarification as to the legalities of it.

magicbastarder

slang61 wrote: »

to me it is definitely a public area, access to bars and hotels etc.....

it is public access in the sense that you're granted access to the services you mentioned.
as it's private land, you may find that their public liability insurance does not cover commercial activity which they are not already aware of and have cleared.

andy_g

DaireQuinlan wrote: »

cite ?

AFAIK you're incorrect anyway. It's private land. You can be asked to stop taking photographs, and if you refuse, you can be removed from the area, using whatever force is necessary. In practice of course it rarely gets to that point.

Now whether or not this is actually a GOOD thing is another point, personally I think it's completely daft, but that's the law as I understand it at the moment.

No problem i'll scan the document issued to me by Pearse Garda Station when i asked about it clearly states section 41.

If you look in the photo walks section you will see the discussion that we had there about trying to be moved.

DaireQuinlan

andy_g wrote: »

No problem i'll scan the document issued to me by Pearse Garda Station when i asked about it clearly states section 41.

Or if you can find any mention of the public order act section 41 anywhere. I can't, But looking for explicit statutes on irishstatutebook.ie can be a bit of a turkeyshoot sometimes.

If you look in the photo walks section you will see the discussion that we had there about trying to be moved.

Link ? I can't find the discussion anywhere.

Deadlie

Where does the Private land up that way begin and end? It's not exactly well signposted. I've been moved on before, but I don't get where they own and where is usable up that end of the city!

andy_g

Edit found it.

Link to the thread in question, wasnt too hard to find even a three year old could get it.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056778853

Copy of the paper work fpr section 41 i will have when i return home from being abroad.

DaireQuinlan

andy_g wrote: »

Edit found it.

Link to the thread in question, wasnt too hard to find even a three year old could get it.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056778853

Oh right, my apologies, I didn't realise that it was up to me to hunt down links to corroborate your assertions. It also doesn't really have anything to do with anything. So you talked a security guy down. Chances are he was as ignorant of the law as you or I, or maybe just reasonable.

Copy of the paper work fpr section 41 i will have when i return home from being abroad.

Yes, I await the production of section 41 of the public order act with anticipation.

magicbastarder

i still don't see how a public order act would allow you onto land held privately to take photos for non-commercial use, but would disallow commercial photography.
trespass is defined by the landowner's consent, not by your activity.

spooky donkey

I was there on a shoot before at the spikes. We had no issues till we moved closer to the building and were using one of them big metal things as a back drop. then we got told we could not shoot and got handed that information sheet.

It must be nice to live in a free country....

magicbastarder

spooky donkey wrote: »

It must be nice to live in a free country....

somewhat melodramatic, no, given that you were on private land?

LeoB

I thought it would depend on where you are standing when you are taking your shots?

If you are on the roads that run through the docklands I dont think you would be braking any laws, Public roads? Would there not be a public right of way there?

Iv never had a problem shooting there on the few occasions I was there

joeKel73

I spotted this thread on Friday and decided to fire them an email as I haven't had a chance to photograph there but would like to when in Dublin next. Purely as a hobby/tourist so wanted to have an email to show the robo-guard.

They got back to me and said the permit would be €275 + 23% VAT per day. I asked again if it was required for non-commercial photography, as a tourist, they said;

Hi Joe,

Yes it also applies to non-commercial photography.

Kind regards,

Permits

magicbastarder

that's quite bat****.

pixbyjohn

J o e wrote: »

I spotted this thread on Friday and decided to fire them an email as I haven't had a chance to photograph there but would like to when in Dublin next. Purely as a hobby/tourist so wanted to have an email to show the robo-guard.

They got back to me and said the permit would be €275 + 23% VAT per day. I asked again if it was required for non-commercial photography, as a tourist, they said;

Who did you actually write to? May I have more info please?

dirtyghettokid

that's insane! so joe soap tourist has to pay €275 a day plus vat just for a few snaps some interesting buildings down the docklands as a keepsake of his holiday? ridiculous. where do they get off charging for non commercial photography? :mad:

DaireQuinlan

dirtyghettokid wrote: »

that's insane! so joe soap tourist has to pay €275 a day plus vat just for a few snaps some interesting buildings down the docklands as a keepsake of his holiday? ridiculous. where do they get off charging for non commercial photography? :mad:

It's possible they just have a blanket ban on photography unless you have a permit, private land, their rules etc etc. Enough people have been stopped while wandering around by themselves taking shots to suggest this is the case. Individual security guards might just overlook or ignore or be amenable to reason.

I'm still waiting for the production of the "public order act section 41" which magically gives you the right to take pictures on private land.

dirtyghettokid

i dunno ...hey lets make this area look totally awesome! and then not let anyone photograph it...:rolleyes:

DaireQuinlan

LeoB wrote: »

I thought it would depend on where you are standing when you are taking your shots?

If you are on the roads that run through the docklands I dont think you would be braking any laws, Public roads? Would there not be a public right of way there?

Iv never had a problem shooting there on the few occasions I was there

public right of way != public land. AFAIK the entirety of the IFSC and most of the docklands area is private land. Someone circulated a map ages ago here IIRC with the boundaries. In the IFSC the roads and pavements that bound it are public so you can shoot away to your hearts content so long as you're standing there.

Note that AFAIK it's ok to shoot away so long as you stop when requested by a security guy (or anyone else acting for the land owner) so long as you're unaware that photography is not permitted. The guard has no authority to confiscate your camera or delete shots or anything of the sort.

dirtyghettokid

when did they get all funky about this anyway?
i drove my old car up there & took pics of it, about three & a half years ago, at night, and nobody batted an eyelid!


bastien at hannover quay by jbredrebel, on Flickr

Nerro

I am just wondering how many permits they actually sold

joeKel73

DaireQuinlan wrote: »

...so long as you're unaware that photography is not permitted.

Nooooo, I've read too much...

andy_g

DaireQuinlan wrote: »

I'm still waiting for the production of the "public order act section 41" which magically gives you the right to take pictures on private land.

As mentioned when i get home from traveling this will be scanned for you and you may use it if you wish.

joeKel73

pixbyjohn wrote: »

Who did you actually write to? May I have more info please?

Sure. I emailed permits@ie.hsgzander.com, the address in the link in the OP. Here's the full email discussion;

Hi,

I see a permit is required for photographing around the docklands and I hear of security guards stopping photographers in the area.

I was hoping to get over to Dublin soon to do some photography. It's purely as a hobby. Is a permit required for non-commercial photography and filming?

Thanks,

Joe

Hi Joe,

That is correct, a permit is required and there are costs involved.
If you wish to apply for a permit, please find our application form attached.
The costs for a permit are €275 + 23% VAT per day.

Kind regards,

Permits

Real Estate

Bilfinger Real Estate Limited
1 Exchange Place
IFSC
Dublin 1
Republic of Ireland

[phone numbers snip]
Permits@ie.hsgzander.com
www.bilfinger.com

Hi,

Thanks for the email. Does this permit and charge apply to personal (non-commercial) photography too? Essentially as a tourist.

Regards,

Joe

Hi Joe,

Yes it also applies to non-commercial photography.

Kind regards,

Permits

Real Estate

Bilfinger Real Estate Limited
1 Exchange Place
IFSC
Dublin 1
Republic of Ireland

[phone numbers snip]
Permits@ie.hsgzander.com
www.bilfinger.com

Leftyflip

There is no Section 41 to the public order act...

Jonnykitedude

dirtyghettokid wrote: »

i dunno ...hey lets make this area look totally awesome! and then not let anyone photograph it...:rolleyes:

Or have a boards meet there I'd love to see what happens when they ask everybody to leave and then call the guards.

pixbyjohn

J o e wrote: »

Sure. I emailed permits@ie.hsgzander.com, the address in the link in the OP. Here's the full email discussion;

Thank you Joe.
That's it then, crystal clear.

M5

Jonnykitedude wrote: »

Or have a boards meet there I'd love to see what happens when they ask everybody to leave and then call the guards.

Count me in!

malene

Bord Failte should redo any artwork featuring the Bord Gais Energy Theatre and surrounding areas.

Welcome to Dublin, don't take pictures!!!

Bluefoam

Here's my little conversation with them... Shocking that a tourist would be told to pay so much to take some photos during their holiday. Its only after I pushed them that they changed their stance...

Dear Sir/Madam
I intend to visit Ireland in December from my home in the Middle East. I may at some stage of my holiday visit the Grand Canal/Docklands area of Dublin. Will I require a photography permit during my visit, if I intend to take casual photos?

Regards,

Hi,

Thanks for your email. Yes you need a permit for this. I attached our application form which you need to fill in and send back to us (permits@ie.hsgzander.com).
Please be informed that the costs for a photograph permit are €275 +23% VAT per day.

Kind regards,

Permits

Real Estate

Bilfinger Real Estate Limited
1 Exchange Place
IFSC
Dublin 1
Republic of Ireland

Phone +353 1 612-6640
Fax +353 1 670-2252
Permits@ie.hsgzander.com
www.bilfinger.com

Hi,
I think there may be a mistake. I wish to take snapshots of myself and my friends during my holiday as mementos. The fee mentioned below surely cannot apply to me as a tourist to Dublin!? Further, I cannot guarantee which day/days I will be in the vicinity & therefore cannot accurately complete your application form. Does the €338.25 cover any 24 hour period, or is it for just one calendar day?

Regards,

Hi,

As a tourist the fee and permit does not apply as long you take snapshots with a small non-professional camera. Please be informed you cannot take pictures from the company logos in the area without permission. Furthermore I wish you a good trip in Dublin.

Kind regards,

Permits

It's worth noting that they don't even respond with a contact name, making it much more difficult to have any meaningful recourse...

DaireQuinlan

though I like how ridiculously ambiguous it is. Define 'snapshots'. also, 'small' and 'non-professional'. 'tourist' too while you're at it.

No Pants

Should forward these emails to Bord Failte and ask them to clarify their position in regards to tourism on snapshots, amateur vs. professional cameras and how many permits does a tourist need to purchase to take a few pictures, etc.

M5

We should make a concerted effort to waste their time so much that an extra security guard is required. Get a different person down every hour for a couple of weeks

magicbastarder

No Pants wrote: »

Should forward these emails to Bord Failte and ask them to clarify their position in regards to tourism on snapshots, amateur vs. professional cameras and how many permits does a tourist need to purchase to take a few pictures, etc.

it's none of bord failte's business; they may not like the policy, but they can do nothing to change it as it's private land. no more than bord failte would have a say as to whether i permit photography in my garden.

however, i like the stipulation that you cannot take photos which include (i assume the word 'from' is a mistake). why would a company which displays its logo on the side or entrance of their building care if it ends up in a tourist photo?

Balfey1972

No Pants wrote: »

Should forward these emails to Bord Failte and ask them to clarify their position in regards to tourism on snapshots, amateur vs. professional cameras and how many permits does a tourist need to purchase to take a few pictures, etc.

Interesting to see their reply.

We could get the customs guys at the green and blue channels to stop toursits and confiscate their pro dslr's and give them 'The Gathering' disposable cameras that must be then developed in a goverment approved lab where they are screened before being released.

Crazy stuff.

dirtyghettokid

LAWL! define professional camera.... they wouldn't know the difference between a d4 & a d3100!

i wonder would i get away with using my mini pen? :P

now i really want to go down there on a group outing!

Zillah

Jonnykitedude wrote: »

Or have a boards meet there I'd love to see what happens when they ask everybody to leave and then call the guards.

Scatter, lads!

*twenty boardies run in different directions taking photographs all at the same time*

DaireQuinlan wrote: »

though I like how ridiculously ambiguous it is. Define 'snapshots'. also, 'small' and 'non-professional'. 'tourist' too while you're at it.

I dunno, it's kind of obvious to me. They don't want anyone causing a scene or making an obstruction. A tourist taking a snap of his friends is nothing like that, setting up a tripod with a DSLR is obviously a bigger deal.

I don't think it's reasonable but I won't pretend to be obtuse and not get what they're getting at. They also don't have to be clear, it is not a legal statement, they can give and revoke permission on a whim. "You're wearing a blue cap, no photography for you!"

secman

TPS arranged a trip down there late August , about 15 to 20 of us , plenty of decent camera and tripods on display and no issues . Full of tourists and quite a few of them enquiring about our presence which made us more noticeable . Was surprised to hear on boards about needing a permit !

LeoB

DaireQuinlan wrote: »

public right of way != public land. AFAIK the entirety of the IFSC and most of the docklands area is private land. Someone circulated a map ages ago here IIRC with the boundaries. In the IFSC the roads and pavements that bound it are public so you can shoot away to your hearts content so long as you're standing there.

Note that AFAIK it's ok to shoot away so long as you stop when requested by a security guy (or anyone else acting for the land owner) so long as you're unaware that photography is not permitted. The guard has no authority to confiscate your camera or delete shots or anything of the sort.

Thanks DaireQuinlan. That clarifies enough me, I think.

Who owns the streets around Grand canal dock is what I should have asked/posted. My point being if I stand on the street (like at IFSC) I would not have to stop. I would not be on the forecourt of the Theatre. I thought I saw DCC doing some road works on one of the streets there on private land!.

Would my car insurance be valid on the street outside the Grand canal theatre if it is private land?