Some advice on new laptop (or Macbook?)

floggg

Hi guys

Looking for a steer on a new laptop.

Thanks to an unexpected windfall, I'm thinking of upgrading. I have a 5 year old Intel Core Duo 2.13ghz with 4gb ram. My graphics cards is Nvidia GeForce GT 230M.

I mainly use it for web, movies, itunes etc, but occassionally for games like Football Manager. FM 2013 is fairly slow on it though.

I would like to get something which would be able to run the new FM 2014 fairly smoothly, and preferably also the next few versions of it too.

These are the current min and recommended specs for FM 2014:

Minimum Specification Recomended Specification
Intel CPU Pentium 4 1.8GHz Core 2 Duo E4300 1.8GHz
AMD CPU Athlon XP 2000+ Athlon 64 X2 Dual Core 4200+

Nvidia GPU Nvidia GeForce GTX 660 GeForce GT 330
AMD GPU Radeon HD 2600 Pro Radeon HD 7620G
RAM 1 GB 4 GB

On the face of it, I seem to have near those specs already, but FM 2013 is pretty slow.

So what specs should I look at to get a good experience, in a laptop that will last at least 5 years. And what price range am I looking at?

I don't really understand processor speeds and types these days with all the different cores etc.

And how would a MacBook or MacBook Air fair? If I got the entry level Mac, would I be underpowered - now or in a year or two?

OcocO

I have a MacBook Pro 2013 and I'm delighted with it. I enjoy the design, silent running, 750GB SSD, 16GB ram, 2.8GHz i7 speed and I also like OS X, the mac equivalent of Windows. I also run Windows on it and game from that platform. It plays all of the most demanding games at 2880x1800 resolution at 30+ fps without needing to overclock it. It comes with a NVIDIA GeForce GT 650M (1GB dedicated RAM) but the next evolution in the MacBook Pro range will be available towards the end of this year (Haswell processor) and that will also have a better GPU too.

On the other hand, you could probably get specs that approached these from a Windows based laptop at 2/3 of the price. If you are buying a MacBook Pro though, I recommend buying new through eBay (I saved 900euro compared to the Apple website).

OcocO

Also, earlier this year I sold my 2009 MacBook Pro for 2/3 of what I paid for it so it kept it's value pretty well.

Torqay

floggg wrote: »

And how would a MacBook or MacBook Air fair? If I got the entry level Mac, would I be underpowered - now or in a year or two?

Hopelessly so. The MBA has only integrated graphics.

If you have enough cash for an MBA burning a hole in your pocket, you'll get a decent laptop with a Haswell quad Core i7 processor and a Nvidia GTX 765M for less than 1,000 yoyos, well capabable of playing not only the current version but very likely future installments of Football Manager as well.

ressem

A basic Macbook air is good for lots of things, but not really Championship Manager.
A €2500+ refurbished Macbook Pro as outlined above would be great but I guess that your windfall doesn't justify that.

How important is weight, size and battery life?
Is it just going to sit on a desk and not be carried around too much / used on the train / plane etc?

You want a good processor, at least an i5-3xxx is decent third gen.
Ideally an i7-4xxx would provide high CPU power.
CM isn't GPU heavy, mostly CPU, memory then hard drive.

There are only a few of the new series machines out. The closest Dell have to a Macbook Pro is
http://www.dell.com/ie/p/inspiron-15-7537/pd#overrides=
which with the coupon is a €892, but is heavier, with worse battery life and hard drive is not an SSD. Better graphics card and CPU 4th Generation [Intel® Core™ i7-4500U Processor (4M Cache, up to 3.0 GHz)].

An SSD could be added later though, prices are plumetting.

I'd suggest waiting a few months for the manufacturers to update laptops and revision out the defects.

Maybe OcocO will be flogging his laptop cheap when the new macbook revision appears (jk).

Torqay

That 4th Generation Core i7-4700U is a joke, slower actually than than a 3rd genereration Core i5.

floggg

Torqay wrote: »

Hopelessly so. The MBA has only integrated graphics.

If you have enough cash for an MBA burning a hole in your pocket, you'll get a decent laptop with a Haswell quad Core i7 processor and a Nvidia GTX 765M for less than 1,000 yoyos, well capabable of playing not only the current version but very likely future installments of Football Manager as well.

Any suggestions? Or at least where to look?

Don't know if I can really justify the MacBook now that I think about it.

I'd want at least 8gb ram, and that works out at €1350 for the basic 13inch non-retina.

Torqay

If you have a budget of €1,350 have a look at PC Specialist. That money would buy you a Full HD laptop with a quad Core i7 4700MQ and a 4 GB Radeon HD 8970M. Surely outperforms anything Apple has to offer.



€1,358 (sans OS)

OcocO

Torqay wrote: »

Surely outperforms anything Apple has to offer.

Never!

Torqay

OcocO wrote: »

Never!

Well, even the most expensive MBP only has a 1GB GT 650M, clearly no match.

floggg

What are PC Specialist like in terms of quality and reliability? I wouldn't be amazingly techy, so wouldn't like to have to go it my own in terms of repairs if anything gos wrong - which it normally seems to at some point with new laptops.

And how tricky is it to load windows 8 onto it if it doesn't ship with an o/s?

Can you recommend any ready made options?

I work in the legal sphere so I'm naturally inclined to assume things will break or go wrong, and like to know I want have to kick too much butt to get things sorted.

Thanks, for all your help..

Torqay

floggg wrote: »

What are PC Specialist like in terms of quality and reliability?

PC Specialist are a small suistem builder, for their laptops they are using Clevo barebones.

I have seen 3 of their laptops so far (all of them UltraNote 15), solid build quality, excellent display.

Others around here bought gaming laptops from PC Specialist and from what I hear they seem to be quite happy.

floggg wrote: »

I wouldn't be amazingly techy, so wouldn't like to have to go it my own in terms of repairs if anything gos wrong - which it normally seems to at some point with new laptops.

These Clevo laptops are very mainenance-friendly. All major components (processor, graphics card, system memory, HDD/SSD) are "user-accessible" and can be replaced/upgraded without much effort. Also noteworthy, most of their regular laptops have two hard disk bays.

floggg wrote: »

And how tricky is it to load windows 8 onto it if it doesn't ship with an o/s?

Oh, they do ship with an operating system, customers have they choice between Windows 7 and Windows 8 (and they will receive a Windows installation DVD with their purchase). But customers do not have to pay the "Windows Tax" (saving €95) if they already have a Windows operating system or wish to install a Linux distribution.

I only removed the OS for the sake of argument to match the price for the most basic MBP you have quoted.

If you order a laptop from PC Specialist without OS, it does have Windows installed. But it is not activated and you won't get a Windows DVD (only a disk with the device drivers).

floggg

ressem wrote: »

A basic Macbook air is good for lots of things, but not really Championship Manager.
A €2500+ refurbished Macbook Pro as outlined above would be great but I guess that your windfall doesn't justify that.

How important is weight, size and battery life?
Is it just going to sit on a desk and not be carried around too much / used on the train / plane etc?

You want a good processor, at least an i5-3xxx is decent third gen.
Ideally an i7-4xxx would provide high CPU power.
CM isn't GPU heavy, mostly CPU, memory then hard drive.

There are only a few of the new series machines out. The closest Dell have to a Macbook Pro is
http://www.dell.com/ie/p/inspiron-15-7537/pd#overrides=
which with the coupon is a €892, but is heavier, with worse battery life and hard drive is not an SSD. Better graphics card and CPU 4th Generation [Intel® Core™ i7-4500U Processor (4M Cache, up to 3.0 GHz)].

An SSD could be added later though, prices are plumetting.

I'd suggest waiting a few months for the manufacturers to update laptops and revision out the defects.

Maybe OcocO will be flogging his laptop cheap when the new macbook revision appears (jk).

Ideally I would like it to be fairly portable but it's not the be all and end all. It mostly sits on my desk or on my lap in front of the couch. I might take it out of the house every two weeks or so for a two hour bus trip down home. That's about it though.

I very rarely use it away from a plug so battery isn't essential either. I have an iPad as well which I use for out and about and unplugged browsing.

floggg

Torqay wrote: »

PC Specialist are a small suistem builder, for their laptops they are using Clevo barebones.

I have seen 3 of their laptops so far (all of them UltraNote 15), solid build quality, excellent display.

Others around here bought gaming laptops from PC Specialist and from what I hear they seem to be quite happy.



These Clevo laptops are very mainenance-friendly. All major components (processor, graphics card, system memory, HDD/SSD) are "user-accessible" and can be replaced/upgraded without much effort. Also noteworthy, most of their regular laptops have two hard disk bays.



Oh, they do ship with an operating system, customers have they choice between Windows 7 and Windows 8 (and they will receive a Windows installation DVD with their purchase). But customers do not have to pay the "Windows Tax" (saving €95) if they already have a Windows operating system or wish to install a Linux distribution.

I only removed the OS for the sake of argument to match the price for the most basic MBP you have quoted.

If you order a laptop from PC Specialist without OS, it does have Windows installed. But it is not activated and you won't get a Windows DVD (only a disk with the device drivers).

Thanks.

I'll have a look. I don't think I want to spring that high. I looked at the MacBook prices after posting last night and decided I couldn't justify anything over a grand or thereabouts - even before I read your posts.

I appreciate that was only an example though, and appreciate the help.

Sorry to be annoying, but if you had to suggest a ready made for that price, have you an ideas?

If even so I can judge how good value the PC Specialist offering would be?

And lastly, are the hybrid hard drives good and reliable? Hadn't heard of them before -assume they offer best of both worlds?

OcocO

Torqay wrote: »

Well, even the most expensive MBP only has a 1GB GT 650M, clearly no match.

True that. The graphics card does let the rest of the system down from a gaming point of view. I guess Apple didn't have our gaming demographic in mind when designing it.

For what it's worth, I'd second your recommendation of PC Specialist. Alienware might be worth checking out too.

Torqay

floggg wrote: »

Ideally I would like it to be fairly portable

PC Specialist also have a couple of smaller laptops in their range. For example, the 13.3" Optimus V, €1,059 (incl operating system ) in the following configuration:

Torqay

floggg wrote: »

Sorry to be annoying, but if you had to suggest a ready made for that price, have you an ideas?

If even so I can judge how good value the PC Specialist offering would be?

I'd say, if the budget is €800 or higher, PC Specialist (or MYSN/SChenker, another Clevo reatailer) offers the best value. Even more so if you don't need an operating system.

Other aspects I do like about them is the maintenance-friendliness and upgradeability, the second HDD bay (in most their laptops) and the fact that they ship a proper installation disk, not some hidden recovery immage which is useless in case of a disk failure. And unlike most OEM laptops, they do not come bloated with crapware.

floggg wrote: »

And lastly, are the hybrid hard drives good and reliable? Hadn't heard of them before -assume they offer best of both worlds?

Personally, I don't like hybrid drives in laptops. Yes, they do boost the performance noticeably but they're no better than conventional platter HDDs in terms of reliability.

OcocO wrote: »

True that. The graphics card does let the rest of the system down from a gaming point of view. I guess Apple didn't have our gaming demographic in mind when designing it.

For what it's worth, I'd second your recommendation of PC Specialist. Alienware might be worth checking out too.

As nice as they are, Macbooks are just not made for gamers.

The GT 650M is a medium-range GPU, and rather outdated at this stage, time to upgrade, Apple. But I suppose, Apple will go for the i7-4750HQ next time round, integrated Iris Pro graphics, performance similar to the GT 650M.

OcocO

Torqay wrote: »

As nice as they are, Macbooks are just not made for gamers.

The GT 650M is a medium-range GPU, and rather outdated at this stage, time to upgrade, Apple. But I suppose, Apple will go for the i7-4750HQ next time round, integrated Iris Pro graphics, performance similar to the GT 650M.

I think you're probably on the money there. A GeekBench report of the new Haswell MBP from back in July listed the i7-4950HQ but they've historically offered a bit of choice in their lineup so there could easily be both.
They normally include a dedicated GPU as well as the integrated one but in this case, as you say, they could well stick with just the integrated Iris because the main selling point this time around (of the Haswell processor at any rate) is going to be the battery runtime.

floggg

Torqay wrote: »

Personally, I don't like hybrid drives in laptops. Yes, they do boost the performance noticeably but they're no better than conventional platter HDDs in terms of reliability.

Can I take it though that they are no worse?

I.e. If given the choice between hybrid and HDD is there any reason not to chose hybrid?

Torqay

Nope, and yet I still prefer a proper SSD in a laptop.

240GB drives have come down reasonably in price. Should be more than enough disk space, unless you want to carry a vast multimedia collection wherever you go. But even that can be remedied with a portable HDD.

OcocO

Torqay wrote: »

Nope, and yet I still prefer a proper SSD in a laptop.

240GB drives have come down reasonably in price. Should be more than enough disk space, unless you want to carry a vast multimedia collection wherever you go. But even that can be remedied with a portable HDD.

If you can afford it, go SSD. It's significantly faster of course which also makes a difference when gaming in any sort of 3D sandbox because imagery of where you're going is frequently being loaded into RAM to replace the imagery of where you've been because the RAM can only hold so much of a virtual world.

Secondly, and more importantly really, SSDs are made for laptops because there are no moving parts and so you can move your laptop around while it is writing to disk without having to be concerned that a sudden jolt might cause the head to jam or damage the platter. They are also lighter and smaller allowing more space for extensions or bigger battery etc.

Torqay

Since I was asked about it in the sticky thread, here is a review of the Schenker XMG A523 which is identical to the 15" Optimus V.

floggg

Hey,

Appreciate all the advice and assistance I got.

I now have a better understanding of the options and what I want for the price.

I really wanted a MacBook (an air particularly) but I realise it's terrible value for the price.

I know it seems to offer the best value but I'm also reluctant to go the "design your own" route with PC Specialist as I don't really know enough about computers and don't feel confident in my own ability to handle their abilities or about having to pursue a small company in England for a remedy.

So, could anybody point me to a ready made option from a reputable brand?

I'm looking for is a fairly portable laptop with good battery and dedicated graphics, for mainly internet, movies etc but also for some gaming. I'd like a had well processor for the extra efficiency on the battery.

I don't need it to be top of the line graphically but capable if handling new games fairly ok, and not to be out of date in 3 years.

Ideally would like to spend less than €800 but can go higher for the right laptop.

I could justify €1300 for a mac because it's something different to what I had but funnily enough can't bring myself to spend the same on an upgrade to my existing computer.

I know PC Specialist is probably still the best value for that but if you could suggest any other options I'd be very grateful.

OcocO

floggg wrote: »

Hey,

Appreciate all the advice and assistance I got.

I now have a better understanding of the options and what I want for the price.

I really wanted a MacBook (an air particularly) but I realise it's terrible value for the price.

I know it seems to offer the best value but I'm also reluctant to go the "design your own" route with PC Specialist as I don't really know enough about computers and don't feel confident in my own ability to handle their abilities or about having to pursue a small company in England for a remedy.

So, could anybody point me to a ready made option from a reputable brand?

I'm looking for is a fairly portable laptop with good battery and dedicated graphics, for mainly internet, movies etc but also for some gaming. I'd like a had well processor for the extra efficiency on the battery.

I don't need it to be top of the line graphically but capable if handling new games fairly ok, and not to be out of date in 3 years.

Ideally would like to spend less than €800 but can go higher for the right laptop.

I could justify €1300 for a mac because it's something different to what I had but funnily enough can't bring myself to spend the same on an upgrade to my existing computer.

I know PC Specialist is probably still the best value for that but if you could suggest any other options I'd be very grateful.

You could try http://www.dell.com/ie/p/alienware-14/pd.aspx. This is a mainstream (you can't get much more mainstream than Dell) computer from an Irish website. €1099 is a bit more than you're hoping for but it will still be powerful enough to run games that come out 4 or 5 years from now.

Even here, as you can see though, there is the option to "build" your computer because laptops aren't marketed as stock items these days. Distributors recognise that people have different requirements from a laptop and so want to offer an adjustable product to suit a variety of needs. Apple laptops are about as close to "stock" as it gets but even there you still have a few options.

In short, whilst I appreciate what you are saying, it would pay you to bite the bullet and learn a little about what the customisable aspects of a laptop can do for you. Once you do, you would come to appreciate the value for money offered by the likes of PC Specialist as well as the benefits of being able to upgrade their computers more cheaply and easily than others, which is the best future-proofing you could have.

Anyway, hope this helps.

Torqay

OcocO wrote: »

it will still be powerful enough to run games that come out 4 or 5 years from now.

You have a lot of faith in that GT 750M.

OcocO

Torqay wrote: »

You have a lot of faith in that GT 750M.

Fair comment: I doubt that it'll give a decent fps on whatever iteration of GTA is available in 2018, but it'll probably be sufficient for Football Manager programs. Somewhat counterintuitively, games are often more intensive on the CPU than the GPU. My GT 650M, an iteration or two lower than that, can borrow from the 16GB of main RAM to augment it's built-in 1GB - I haven't researched it, but I'd hope the 750M could too.

As you've already said though, there's no substitute for customising your own laptop and it wouldn't bump up the cost that much to opt for a better GPU. Last I checked though, Alienware is pretty easy to upgrade and, assuming that's still the case, Flogg could get a better GPU down the line as needed.

floggg

Torqay wrote: »

You have a lot of faith in that GT 750M.

This is why I am wary of the customised route! Even what looks good to some on paper may not actually be great.

When you get up around a grand, you expect it should be able to handle anything for the next few years.

At least with a Mac there are so few options it's easy to decide!

Trying to figure out what all the options means with PC makes my head hurt!

Torqay

I still think, that Alienware is somewhat pricey. 14" (1366x768), Core i5, GT 750M isn't exactly stellar specs. For 1,100 yoyos you'll get a lot more at PCS (full HD display, quad Core i7, GTX 765M)

floggg wrote: »

This is why I am wary of the customised route! Even what looks good to some on paper may not actually be great.

When you get up around a grand, you expect it should be able to handle anything for the next few years.

At least with a Mac there are so few options it's easy to decide!

Trying to figure out what all the options means with PC makes my head hurt!

It's not really that complicated. Plenty websites out there offering processor and graphics benchmarks help you making an informed choice... and then there is boards.ie.

OcocO

Flogg, as you've probably realised by now, you're not going to find a ready-made and completely future-proof gaming laptop within your budget - certain compromises will have to be made to squeeze the price under your threshold. You don't feel well enough informed to make those compromises and so you want someone else who knows more about these things to make them for you - understandable.

Torqay has already suggested two or three custom builds which are good compromises, but you were concerned that the company is in England and not well enough known to you. Between us though, Torqay and I have recommended PCS about 6 times and repeatedly explained that you'll pay more for the same specs from the "high-street" brands like Dell or Apple. Either way you can't escape the fact that buying a laptop these days necessitates having some awareness of how it can be customised to better suit your needs. Forget about a Mac - I love mine but, but a MacBook Pro good enough for future gaming will be out of your price range (you didn't indicate the magnitude of your unexpected windfall initially, which was why I enthused about them).

Ultimately, you'll have to either put your faith in a customisation that someone else composes for you or you'll have to learn a bit about the subject and make your own choices. Personally, I'd be reluctant to completely make your choice for you because I'd be concerned that you would hold me responsible if you weren't entirely happy with it for some reason down the line.

floggg

No, it's more a case that ordering a custom made gaming laptop seems like overkill for what I consider to be very casual gaming.

My main use is internet and movies, iTunes etc and football manager.

Other than football manager, I might play one or two games at most each year and generally they are RPGs or strategy games like Civ.

I realise I need to compromise somewhere though, you're right. Perhaps that might just have to be on the gaming front. I feel there's no point in spending a grand on a gaming orientated set up if I won't use it regularly for that purpose.

Torqay

Whether you play it hours on end every day or only casually, that doesn't change the system requirements. And if you want to be able to play future installments, you'll have to invest a little more, simple as that.

Sure you can play your footie manager on any €400 laptop with Intel HD graphics, but only on lowest detail settings (and you can't sure about future versions).

floggg

Torqay wrote: »

Whether you play it hours on end every day or only casually, that doesn't change the system requirements. And if you want to be able to play future installments, you'll have to invest a little more, simple as that.

Sure you can play your footie manager on any €400 laptop with Intel HD graphics, but only on lowest detail settings (and you can't sure about future versions).

I appreciate that, and also your help.

I think though on the whole, gaming alone isn't important enough to justify sacrificing portability or form for me, or the increases cost to get a lightweight but beefy computer.

I guess once I've seen what you need to stay current, I re-evaluated my priorities.

Torqay

floggg wrote: »

I think though on the whole, gaming alone isn't important enough to justify sacrificing portability or form for me, or the increases cost to get a lightweight but beefy computer.

Well, there is the Schenker S413, cheaper than a Macbook, excellent mobility and yet quite powerful, even suitable for gaming, a brute in a suit.