Advice on levels of misfuel in your car

dclerkin

I recently filled my Audi A3 2012 1.6 Diesel, with Petrol, There was very little Diesel in tank before i filled it, the driver information system was saying i had 20 km left. I filled the tank with Petrol and after i did this i realised what i had done. I didnt move the car once i had realised. I called a guy that the petrol station had listed to drain the car, he came, and had a machine he used to suck out the petrol from the front of the car. When he finished the job he filled the car for me with Diesel, the tank filled on 37 Euro worth of Diesel. It normally takes over 70 Euros to fill. So to me it looks like he only took out just over half the tank of petrol, there was probably a good half a tank of petrol still left in the car. the next day i drove the car the engine management system light came on and the car had started to loose power.
I brought the car to a garage to get it checked out and they said the tank should have been fully cleared out of petrol. They then went and cleared out the tank fully again and i had to pay for the job again.

I have rang back the first guy that did the job and he says he is standing by his work that he says that the company that supplies the macine he used says that level of petrol left in the tank is ok. The second garage i went to say that he should have taken out all the diesel.
In your opinion was the amount of diesel taken out but the first guy sufficient. I want to get my money back from this guy as i feel he didnt do his job right. I gave him 150 Euro.

Can anyone tell me if the level of petrol left in my car the first time i got it drained was a safe level to continue driving it on. Are there any websites or places people might know of where i could get this information.

jimgoose

50-50 diesel/petrol mix in a 2012 1.6 turbodiesel will more than likely have damaged the fuel system.

dclerkin

Thanks Jim, I don't know much about these things but I do feel this was an unsafe level for this guy to leave in the car. Do u know of any one I can contact or any other website where I can look to get written confirmation of this.

Interslice

jimgoose wrote: »

50-50 diesel/petrol mix in a 2012 1.6 turbodiesel will more than likely have damaged the fuel system.

I wouldn't fancy that mix in any diesel engine tbh. 5-10% petrol would be pushing it in a modern common rail.

Not very good on my trade laws but sounds like a job for a solicitor OP.

jimgoose

dclerkin wrote: »

Thanks Jim, I don't know much about these things but I do feel this was an unsafe level for this guy to leave in the car. Do u know of any one I can contact or any other website where I can look to get written confirmation of this.

Beyond a thorough going-over by a competent mechanic, I'm not sure.

whomitconcerns

well someone in work had to do this re ently same circumstances and they had teh tank drained. Only put in about 15€ of petrol but he took it all out

jimgoose

whomitconcerns wrote: »

well someone in work had to do this re ently same circumstances and they had teh tank drained. Only put in about 15€ of petrol but he took it all out

Aye. In fact, a tenner or so of petrol in a full tank is arguably worse, as the engine will run for a while on this mix, the whole time the reduced lubricity buggering the complex, delicate and expensive fuel system. By contrast a half-tank of petrol or more will probably conk it out immediately when it hits the high-pressure pump. In all cases the petrol should be evacuated as thoroughly as possible and the tank re-filled with diesel.

corkgsxr

On the 1.6 its a 24k psi fuel pump. Even a few litres can give it problems.

Everything should be drained.

dclerkin

corkgsxr wrote: »

On the 1.6 its a 24k psi fuel pump. Even a few litres can give it problems.

Everything should be drained.

Hi, thanks for the above info, do u know of anywhere that has this in writing? Is there some manual/literature I can see online?

Chimaera

dclerkin wrote: »

Hi, thanks for the above info, do u know of anywhere that has this in writing? Is there some manual/literature I can see online?

Contact Audi directly I think

colm_mcm

Chimaera wrote: »

Contact Audi directly I think

Or don't.
I wouldn't be involving Audi at all tbh.

Re the other guy who drained the tank - he's obviously an idiot. Common rail diesels work to such fine tolerances that only proper diesel should be used.

Its not as if he left a drop in it, half a tank :eek:

Del2005

dclerkin wrote: »

Hi, thanks for the above info, do u know of anywhere that has this in writing? Is there some manual/literature I can see online?

Search for AA Fuel assist. You got a complete cowboy. The tank needs to be completely drained for miss fueling a modern diesel.

Get onto the Small Claims Court for the crap draining service and damage to your engine, if it's less than €2k in total. Did the station recommend the guy or was it a flyer? If they recommended him they could be partially liable,you'll need to talk to solicitor. You can do the Small Claims Court yourself and it only costs €15.

Wheelnut

Has the engine/fuel system been damaged and are you looking for compensation, or are you just looking for your money back from the first guy?

dclerkin

I have been told by the second garage that the engine should be fine, the engine management system light still comes on and the car goes into what they are calling a safe mode, they checked out the light on the computer system and they are saying that it isnt a serious fault that it may be happening as there maybe still be a small bit air or petrol in the tracks. I am hoping they are right.

At the minute i am just looking at getting my money back from the first guy, which i dont know should i be looking for more. He is saying that he is standing over his job and that he should have got the option to look at the car again.
I filled the car on thursday evening with petrol, then i called him to come drain the system, on friday morning i was driving to work when the light came on and the car started to lose power. I pulled in and called him at this point, he told me that it should be ok and was ok to keep driving, and that he would meet me back in town that evening, at that point i would have driven 50 Km + in the car. I contacted a mechanic friend when i got to work on friday morning to see what they taut and they said that i should bring the car to a garage straight away and that driving it that distance and that much petrol in it could cause serious damage to the engine. So at this point i had lost all faith in the guy that drained out the petrol. I brought it to a garage close to work and they had to do the job again and are following up with me now to see if everything is ok. After i brought the car to the second garage i rang the first guy back to tell him what i dont based on the advice of a qualified mechanic.

The first guy is saying i shouldnt have went to another garage that he should have been given the option to look at the car first. but for him to look at the car i had to drive it at least another 25 km, he wasnt offering to come to me!!!! and also i had lost any faith in him at this stage so i wasnt taking any more risks with my car.

At the minute i am hoping there is no damage done to the car, i have drove it about 500km now and the light is still coming on and it goes into safe mode, i dont know how long this should last i was hoping it would be back to normal by now.

Henry Ford III

Did it not occur to you OP that there was still plenty of petrol in the tank when it only took €37 of diesel to refill it?

route66

corkgsxr wrote: »

On the 1.6 its a 24k psi fuel pump. Even a few litres can give it problems.

Everything should be drained.

I always thought the diesel and petrol would combine and you'd end up with a mix - ratio dependent on when you realised you were pumping the wrong fuel.:eek:

If this is right, and if there is, say, 3 litres of petrol and 57 of diesel in a 60 litre tank, then the fuel pumps never really run without the lubrication from the diesel fuel.

Or are these things so delicate now that even as little as 5% of petrol in the diesel being burned will cause problems?

whomitconcerns

but the op ran on almost 50% petrol...definitely not OK. However 3l in 57l would be fine afaik. I wouldn't be asking for a drain if thats all i put in...but open to correction from more experts

dclerkin

after he did the draining he then went to the pump and put diesel into tankl, he stopped filling it at 37 euro, he got in the car and turned on the engine, at that point i saw the fuel gauge was up to full, it was only then i taut had he not taken out all the petrol, i hadnt know if he had refilled it fully then or not with the 37 euros. At that point he must have seen the look on my face i had said nothing but he said to me, its ok the gauge can still show full even if its not full!!! so i took his word on that at that point, i paid him and went home thinking he had taken out all the petrol he could!!!

jimgoose

dclerkin wrote: »

after he did the draining he then filled the tank he got in the car and turned on the engine, at that point i saw the fuel gauge was up to full, it was only then i taut had he taken out all the petrol, i hadnt know if he had refilled it fully then or not with the 37 euros. At that point he must have seen the look on my face i had said nothing but he said to me, its ok the gauge can still show full even if its not full!!! so i took his word on that at that point, i paid him and went home thinking he had taken out all the diesel he could!!!

He's a fucken ape.

whomitconcerns

the gauge might not reflect exactly a full tank...but it certainly wouldn't report half a tank as a full tank! :P

dclerkin

does anyone know how much litres of diesel it would have taken to drive around 40K, this is what i had driven before i took it to the second garage, its a 1.6 engine.

The second garage says they took out about 40 litres of fuel from the tank, at which point i had driven around 40K, if this guy put in 37 euro at about 1.449, it means he only put in circa 25 litres of diesel. So i am trying to figure out how much was in the car when i started to drive it again after the first guy did his job.

corkgsxr

route66 wrote: »

I always thought the diesel and petrol would combine and you'd end up with a mix - ratio dependent on when you realised you were pumping the wrong fuel.:eek:

If this is right, and if there is, say, 3 litres of petrol and 57 of diesel in a 60 litre tank, then the fuel pumps never really run without the lubrication from the diesel fuel.

Or are these things so delicate now that even as little as 5% of petrol in the diesel being burned will cause problems?

There burning out with a fill of dodgy diesel. A mix is worse

bear1

dclerkin wrote: »

does anyone know how much litres of diesel it would have taken to drive around 40K, this is what i had driven before i took it to the second garage, its a 1.6 engine.

The second garage says they took out about 40 litres of fuel from the tank, at which point i had driven around 40K, if this guy put in 37 euro at about 1.449, it means he only put in circa 25 litres of diesel. So i am trying to figure out how much was in the car when i started to drive it again after the first guy did his job.

Step 1 - Change fuel filter ASAP!

Second, the way I see it there was still way too much petrol in that engine - don't go near Audi as the moment they hear this is due to negligence they will void any comeback.
The problem with having petrol in a diesel is also the fuel injectors. One thing is sticking the fuel into the tank and then having it completely drained, another is driving 40km. I wouldn't be surprised if you had injector and pump issues.
Fingers crossed and hopefully the ape will refund the 150e

dclerkin

Fuel filter was changed by the second garage, the engine management lite is still coming on but it is orange, i have had it checked out by the second garage again today, they are saying there is no fault coming up on it, since the second garage cleared out the fuel and put in a new fuel filter i have drove around 500 Km, i would have expected everything to be working ok now, but this light still keeps coming on. The guy in the second garage reckons the sensor it self might be damaged that is why it is still coming on. He suggested replacing it, so my bill is still going up from all of this!!
I hope this is all the damage i have done! i am beginning to think the first guy should pay me more than just the 150 Euro i paid him to do the job right in the first place.

bear1

dclerkin wrote: »

Fuel filter was changed by the second garage, the engine management lite is still coming on but it is orange, i have had it checked out by the second garage again today, they are saying there is no fault coming up on it, since the second garage cleared out the fuel and put in a new fuel filter i have drove around 500 Km, i would have expected everything to be working ok now, but this light still keeps coming on. The guy in the second garage reckons the sensor it self might be damaged that is why it is still coming on. He suggested replacing it, so my bill is still going up from all of this!!
I hope this is all the damage i have done! i am beginning to think the first guy should pay me more than just the 150 Euro i paid him to do the job right in the first place.

Expensive lessons learnt.
Strange that the petrol pump fits into the diesel hole, aren't I right in thinking that the petrol pump is larger so that it makes it harder to misfuel?
Do you have a picture of the light that is lit up? of maybe a link in google?
We might be able to give more advice if we can see it

jimgoose

bear1 wrote: »

Expensive lessons learnt.
Strange that the petrol pump fits into the diesel hole, aren't I right in thinking that the petrol pump is larger so that it makes it harder to misfuel?
Do you have a picture of the light that is lit up? of maybe a link in google?
We might be able to give more advice if we can see it

Oddly enough, diesel nozzles are larger than petrol, thus providing protection against the by far less problematic sort of misfueling. Go figure.

debabyjesus

http://www.misfuellingprevention.co.uk/

Big 'DIESEL' stickers just aren't enough it seems

Interslice

jimgoose wrote: »

Oddly enough, diesel nozzles are larger than petrol, thus providing protection against the by far less problematic sort of misfueling. Go figure.

Is that not to allow for filling off buses, large van's etc. ? For a faster flow rate.


OP everything you mentioned from any mechanic you've talked to sounds like they don't want to know or don't have the know how. An engine light and no fault code would say to me they don't have the right equipment to read your cars computer.

The problem isn't the petrol itself but the problems caused by a lack of lubrication as a result. Metal on metal contact in the pumps causes tiny bits of metal to scrape off(swarf it's called) and go towards your injectors and back into your fuel tank. Does It run like a bag of spanners or is it just down on power?

This is what I would do.
You need to visit a diesel specialist/ competent mechanic. (Where are you based?) Get them to take any pictures of damage done, keep all reciepts etc. and then follow it up with a solicitor. If you fuel system need to be overhauled the bills could run up well over 1000 euro.

dclerkin

Here is an attached image of the light that comes on

jimgoose

dclerkin wrote: »

Here is an attached image of the light that comes on

That's the glowplug warning light. Seldom a good thing.

Interslice

Is it flashing as you drive about? Again where are you based, roughly. Someone might be able to recommend you a trustworthy mechanic in your area.

debabyjesus

Does it flash or just stay on constant? Fuel pump probably shagged at very least

dclerkin

Correction re the fault code, the guy in the second garage i have dealt with has told me the fault code that was showing up wasnt a serious fault code, so there was a fault code showing but what ever it was it wasnt serious. He now thinks the sensor is damaged as it keeps appearing with this same fault code

dclerkin

i can drive a few miles and if i push the reves on the car, it comes on and flashes, and the power seams to go in teh car, i cant get any kind of power going in it then, i have to pull in stop the engine and then restart it, and it takes off fine again it can go for another few miles and then the same thing happen. it happens quiet a lot. the guy in the second garage tells me the power going is the car going into a safety type mode, it kicks in when the sensor goes off.

Interslice

dclerkin wrote: »

i can drive a few miles and if i push the reves on the car, it comes on and flashes, and the power seams to go in teh car, i cant get any kind of power going in it then, i have to pull in stop the engine and then restart it, and it takes off fine again it can go for another few miles and then the same thing happen. it happens quiet a lot. the guy in the second garage tells me the power going is the car going into a safety type mode, it kicks in when the sensor goes off.

It can mean a multitude of things. It a warning that somethings bust. If your happy to go with your mechanics trial and error approach to fixing it, work away.

dclerkin

Interslice wrote: »

It can mean a multitude of things. It a warning that somethings bust. If your happy to go with your mechanics trial and error approach to fixing it, work away.

but if no serious fault code is showing up then is that not enough to say nothing serious is wrong with it

dclerkin

Interslice wrote: »

Is it flashing as you drive about? Again where are you based, roughly. Someone might be able to recommend you a trustworthy mechanic in your area.

based in Ennis

Henry Ford III

dclerkin wrote: »

i can drive a few miles and if i push the reves on the car, it comes on and flashes, and the power seams to go in teh car, i cant get any kind of power going in it then, i have to pull in stop the engine and then restart it, and it takes off fine again it can go for another few miles and then the same thing happen. it happens quiet a lot. the guy in the second garage tells me the power going is the car going into a safety type mode, it kicks in when the sensor goes off.

Some thing is wrong in your car. Don't drive it, take whatever steps are necessary to fix it properly, and take whatever action you feel is needed against the guy who seemingly caused this problem.

whomitconcerns

and show us a picture of the fault light or refer to a pic on the web it will help

Interslice

dclerkin wrote: »

based in Ennis

Hopefully someone will recommend someone nearby for you. Best of luck with it.

Interslice

whomitconcerns wrote: »

and show us a picture of the fault light or refer to a pic on the web it will help

he did on the last page, it's a flashing glow plug light.

bear1

If the light stays on the you will need an electrician to use a multimetre to judge what amount of power each glow plug is reading, if the power is too high/low then you will need new plugs. If I'm correct they need to check the power from the resistance of the plug to the earth.
If instead it is flashing then from what I gather on the Audi forum is that if it flashes you may also get the emissions light on, the cause seems to be the exhaust gas temp sender

Del2005

dclerkin wrote: »

but if no serious fault code is showing up then is that not enough to say nothing serious is wrong with it

The fact that the car keeps going into safe mode means there is something wrong. The 2nd garage doesn't have the correct equipment to reset it so it means that they may not be getting the correct code or worst they did reset it and it's damaged. As said you need to get to a VAG specialist for a proper diagnoses. Hopefully it is just a faulty sensor.

As for the fella who didn't drain it. Asking you to drive 25km on a 50/50 fuel mix shows how useless he was. When making your claim against him, he should have insurance which I didn't think of when I mentioned the SCC or if he's not insured and you have to use the SCC, make sure to say he told you to drive that far. Anyone with the tiniest bit of motoring knowledge knows you can't drive a modern diesel with the much petrol.

dclerkin

bear1 wrote: »

If the light stays on the you will need an electrician to use a multimetre to judge what amount of power each glow plug is reading, if the power is too high/low then you will need new plugs. If I'm correct they need to check the power from the resistance of the plug to the earth.
If instead it is flashing then from what I gather on the Audi forum is that if it flashes you may also get the emissions light on, the cause seems to be the exhaust gas temp sender

It is flashing and yes the emissions light came on yesterday but not today. What I is the exhaust gas temp sender? Is this serious?

bear1

dclerkin wrote: »

It is flashing and yes the emissions light came on yesterday but not today. What I is the exhaust gas temp sender? Is this serious?

Read through this:

http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?135779-EML-on-Which-exhaust-gas-temperature-sensor-Please-Help

Might give you some insights as I'm not quite sure what it actually does