Is Hill Sheep farming viable anymore?

HillFarmer

Hi all,

Just wondering what you thoughts are on this. With the ending of Reps and the mickey mouse AEOS schemes, reduction in DAS and light lamb market non existent, is there a viable future in the sector?

Just looking at prices in the mart for scotch ram lambs and it would make you cry. I'm relatively new to the sector 4 or 5 years but relay enjoyed the work.

Would love to hear your opinions

Cran

HillFarmer wrote: »

Hi all,

Just wondering what you thoughts are on this. With the ending of Reps and the mickey mouse AEOS schemes, reduction in DAS and light lamb market non existent, is there a viable future in the sector?

Just looking at prices in the mart for scotch ram lambs and it would make you cry. I'm relatively new to the sector 4 or 5 years but relay enjoyed the work.

Would love to hear your opinions

Don't know a huge amount about sheep hill farming, but maybe the lack of connection between hill farming and sheep low farming is a problem in Ireland. In that scenario ewe lambs add a bit of value to the product.

It has improved over the past decade or so with increased number of mules, Hiltexs etc but hardly enough to have a significant impact....

Conmaicne Mara

Depends.

New markets are being worked on at the moment from what I hear. Unfortunately in the past lamb was just marketed as lamb, with little distinction between light and french weights. It's also better for the lowland man if some of the years light lamb stock isn't carried on over into next year and interfere with the early lamb market. Current prices of lamb are a problem, but there are groups together already like Connemara Hill Lamb and others. I'm not in that group, maybe I should be. My wethers are off to Maam Cross tomorrow, prices there were up a little last week while I was there but I heard they dropped off towards the end - probably a truck got filled then bidding competition ended.

I can DAS being brought back to where it was in the past. I can also see widening of the bands of payment, and possibly the exclusion of some of the better land categorised as being payable under DAS. There would be quite a large difference in the realistic stocking rates of the best and worst DAS land.

As for REPS & AEOS, at the recent Hill Farming Forum there were two proposals (and that's all they are) made for new Results Based agri environmental schemes. There was good and bad in both. I preferred the first one, one of the "authors" was from Sligo I think, I can't remember the other guy. The other proposal came from Wicklow Upland Council. Coveney has said there will be a new agri environmental scheme in 2015, so maybe there is some light at the end of that tunnel.

What is more pressing is co-funding for Pillar Two, right now, no sign of it yet and the buggerit is on Wednesday, cutting things rather fine.

HillFarmer

Cran wrote: »

Don't know a huge amount about sheep hill farming, but maybe the lack of connection between hill farming and sheep low farming is a problem in Ireland. In that scenario ewe lambs add a bit of value to the product.

It has improved over the past decade or so with increased number of mules, Hiltexs etc but hardly enough to have a significant impact....

Fair point, I know up in the North west, they have the Mayo Mule sales which seem to get good clearance rates. Down in the South west there is no real market for this type of ewe. In the UK the relationship between the upland and lowland is more intertwined. They even rear some hill replacements on lowlands for x amount per week.

I'd love to see more the the Mayo mule type sales along the west coast to try to develop more of a market for these animals on the lowlands.

HillFarmer

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Depends.

New markets are being worked on at the moment from what I hear. Unfortunately in the past lamb was just marketed as lamb, with little distinction between light and french weights. It's also better for the lowland man if some of the years light lamb stock isn't carried on over into next year and interfere with the early lamb market. Current prices of lamb are a problem, but there are groups together already like Connemara Hill Lamb and others. I'm not in that group, maybe I should be. My wethers are off to Maam Cross tomorrow, prices there were up a little last week while I was there but I heard they dropped off towards the end - probably a truck got filled then bidding competition ended.

I can DAS being brought back to where it was in the past. I can also see widening of the bands of payment, and possibly the exclusion of some of the better land categorised as being payable under DAS. There would be quite a large difference in the realistic stocking rates of the best and worst DAS land.

As for REPS & AEOS, at the recent Hill Farming Forum there were two proposals (and that's all they are) made for new Results Based agri environmental schemes. There was good and bad in both. I preferred the first one, one of the "authors" was from Sligo I think, I can't remember the other guy. The other proposal came from Wicklow Upland Council. Coveney has said there will be a new agri environmental scheme in 2015, so maybe there is some light at the end of that tunnel.

What is more pressing is co-funding for Pillar Two, right now, no sign of it yet and the buggerit is on Wednesday, cutting things rather fine.[/QUOTE



I think Portugal used to be a reasonable market for light lamb here in the past, but because of their own recession I think our export volumes are way down.

Surely there is opportunity in the middle east for lamb such as this.
So who is looking for more markets? Is that bord bia or department of agr?



Out of curiosity could you give me a rough calculation of what you expect for your weather lambs? when they were born and rough weights?

In the last few years I never made a cent when I used Scottish blackface rams across all the flock, sure I got replacements but the Weather's made nothing. The last year I ran a few Charlaois and the weather lambs left a few more bob.

Another thing, is the hill farmer well represented in the IFA or ICSA?

From reading the journal I know the IFA have a Hill / upland representative.

Also from the teagasc perspective there is no upland sheep farm in the south west, I think there is one in Mayo but from what I saw they havn't put much research / time effort in to the sector.

I saw some research from a few years back online but nothing major.

Conmaicne Mara

HillFarmer wrote: »

I think Portugal used to be a reasonable market for light lamb here in the past, but because of their own recession I think our export volumes are way down.

Surely there is opportunity in the middle east for lamb such as this.
So who is looking for more markets? Is that bord bia or department of agr?



Out of curiosity could you give me a rough calculation of what you expect for your weather lambs? when they were born and rough weights?

In the last few years I never made a cent when I used Scottish blackface rams across all the flock, sure I got replacements but the Weather's made nothing. The last year I ran a few Charlaois and the weather lambs left a few more bob.

Another thing, is the hill farmer well represented in the IFA or ICSA?

From reading the journal I know the IFA have a Hill / upland representative.

Also from the teagasc perspective there is no upland sheep farm in the south west, I think there is one in Mayo but from what I saw they havn't put much research / time effort in to the sector.

I saw some research from a few years back online but nothing major.

Frank Hynes of Teagasc had a display at the Better Hill Farm walks, I think Ireland exported 137 tons (I'm not missing any 0's) to Portugal at last count, which is way down from what they used to buy from us. "Buy" being the operative word, as there is still demand for our lamb, just no money to pay for it.

There are lads from this area on the BordBia stake holders board thingy, they're doing some good work in identifying markets, and marketing. I don't know all the ins and outs of it, just that they are progressive, proactive farmers with good heads on them. Short answer is it's farmers doing the work. I suppose it could be said they should be anyway, but then it could be said also what's BordBia there for? That "rain" TV ad still gives me gip.

My lambs would have been born from 17th March to around April 10th, with one very late straggler I'm not worried about. Yesterday I weighed all the wethers going to the mart, the heaviest being the horned cheviot cross lamb coming in at over 48kg, the lightest tiddler weighing in at just over 29.5kg. I haven't an average weight for each pen, I know I had three or four blackface wethers 42-43kg. Over half of the lambs I sold today were twins. With the 48+kg and a 43+kg being twins as well, just to give an idea.

What had I expected, well, it's a mart isn't it. It can be pot luck on the day depending on buyers but today was a day I identified to sell on early in the year from my own thinking. I have seen butcher fit blackface wethers sold there in recent weeks for €55. But, IMO, that's the wrong place to sell fleshy lambs, store lambs yes, fit to kill lambs should go elsewhere.

I split my lambs based on sizes not weights, as matched lots look better. I had it in my head I'd let the best of them go for €50. They were not fit to kill, with some a long way off that mark. They were dosed, vaccinated and trained to eat.

I did seek the opinions of some learned gentlemen there today who know what's what. Their opinion was 50-60 with most coming in at 50+, with the poorer pen reckoned to be €10 behind them. The auction started out poor which put the frightners on me a bit, I didn't want to bring them home but I would if I wasn't getting what I wanted for them. Once the bidding hit €50 I put them on the market, they made €55, the poorer pen made €43. I was reasonably happy with that.

I haven't costed them, but this Spring was unnatural so... I spent SFA on them since then, two or three doses, vaccination, and four or five bags of nuts just to train them to eat.

Next year I want to improve all of the above. It's not much compared to big lowland lambs but my lambs were well received there today and I can only compare them to what's around me, rather than say what I saw in the sheep tunnel at the Ploughing.

Didn't meant to type so much I'll answer the rest later, got stuff to go do now before dark.

Couple of photos, the 10 lamb photo is the best pen, the 7 the also rans. - don't know what I've done with that pic of the ten lambs, not working right from here anyway.

rancher

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Frank Hynes of Teagasc had a display at the Better Hill Farm walks, I think Ireland exported 137 tons (I'm not missing any 0's) to Portugal at last count, which is way down from what they used to buy from us. "Buy" being the operative word, as there is still demand for our lamb, just no money to pay for it.

There are lads from this area on the BordBia stake holders board thingy, they're doing some good work in identifying markets, and marketing. I don't know all the ins and outs of it, just that they are progressive, proactive farmers with good heads on them. Short answer is it's farmers doing the work. I suppose it could be said they should be anyway, but then it could be said also what's BordBia there for? That "rain" TV ad still gives me gip.

My lambs would have been born from 17th March to around April 10th, with one very late straggler I'm not worried about. Yesterday I weighed all the wethers going to the mart, the heaviest being the horned cheviot cross lamb coming in at over 48kg, the lightest tiddler weighing in at just over 29.5kg. I haven't an average weight for each pen, I know I had three or four blackface wethers 42-43kg. Over half of the lambs I sold today were twins. With the 48+kg and a 43+kg being twins as well, just to give an idea.

What had I expected, well, it's a mart isn't it. It can be pot luck on the day depending on buyers but today was a day I identified to sell on early in the year from my own thinking. I have seen butcher fit blackface wethers sold there in recent weeks for €55. But, IMO, that's the wrong place to sell fleshy lambs, store lambs yes, fit to kill lambs should go elsewhere.

I split my lambs based on sizes not weights, as matched lots look better. I had it in my head I'd let the best of them go for €50. They were not fit to kill, with some a long way off that mark. They were dosed, vaccinated and trained to eat.

I did seek the opinions of some learned gentlemen there today who know what's what. Their opinion was 50-60 with most coming in at 50+, with the poorer pen reckoned to be €10 behind them. The auction started out poor which put the frightners on me a bit, I didn't want to bring them home but I would if I wasn't getting what I wanted for them. Once the bidding hit €50 I put them on the market, they made €55, the poorer pen made €43. I was reasonably happy with that.

I haven't costed them, but this Spring was unnatural so... I spent SFA on them since then, two or three doses, vaccination, and four or five bags of nuts just to train them to eat.

Next year I want to improve all of the above. It's not much compared to big lowland lambs but my lambs were well received there today and I can only compare them to what's around me, rather than say what I saw in the sheep tunnel at the Ploughing.

Didn't meant to type so much I'll answer the rest later, got stuff to go do now before dark.

Couple of photos, the 10 lamb photo is the best pen, the 7 the also rans.

Would it be difficult to get them factory fit, and if you got them to kill 18 kg dead, are they worth the same as lowland sheep..€75.
They look like nice lambs and you seem to have good weights.
We're piling meal into lambs here and it's costing, but I wouldn't take €55 for them either,
As I said before, don't know anything about hill sheep

Conmaicne Mara

rancher wrote: »

Would it be difficult to get them factory fit, and if you got them to kill 18 kg dead, are they worth the same as lowland sheep..€75.
They look like nice lambs and you seem to have good weights.
We're piling meal into lambs here and it's costing, but I wouldn't take €55 for them either,
As I said before, don't know anything about hill sheep

Thanks, they looked good, but they didn't handle so well though.

Couple of the guys I asked regularly send lambs tot he factory, blackface lambs now. They reckoned it'd take two 25kg bags to finish them. Doing my maths that'd be €18-20 per lamb. They reckoned they'd make €70 then. So doing my sums I could sell for what I wanted before the mart €50, or spend say for arguments sake €18 per lamb and get €70. I figured I'd be a busy fool given the risk of one dying, no housing so possibility of bad weather, all sorts of risks and set backs. I thought the safer bet was take the €55 and run. Maybe they'd make more than the €70, I don't know, never sent a lamb to the factory myself, abattoir for family friends etc but not factory.

If I was going to fatten for factory I'd want to educate myself a lot better on the ins and outs of it, least I get caught out financially. The trouble with hill farming is the ground I have to work with and the animal I need to use to survive and produce on that ground. Whether I'm right or wrong in doing it I'm looking to improve my grass and it's management to gain there, rather than from the bag. I would love to include genetics in that but unfortunately in blackface the recording is in it's infancy and in cheviot it's pretty much non existent in this country. I will likely look at importing a recorded cheviot ram next year from the UK. If I were allowed up in numbers I could then cross my mongrel blackface cheviot cross with something more terminal. Saw not so good chev/suffolk/something ewe lambs go €70 today. But, it all goes back to my ground and survival and I need to keep an eye always on a strong replacement policy.

Thanks to STAP I am identifying good and poor ewes and replacements. If I had ewes producing two lambs in around the 35-40kg at weaning I'd be happy for 50% of my current flock to have twins as they'd pay me. Right now, I'll concentrate on improving. We are hamstrung by bureaucracy as per the other thread discussion.

I would have thought you were getting more than €75 per lamb for yours (well lowland lambs is what I mean) in the factory? Maybe I took you up wrong and you mean the equivalent 18kg carcass, tired, brain not working right. I think I remember Username John mentioning not being happy with €91 earlier in the year. I remember seeing pictures of your stock on here, I wouldn't take €55 for them either, you'd have to be a fool to do that.

Conmaicne Mara

HillFarmer wrote: »

In the last few years I never made a cent when I used Scottish blackface rams across all the flock, sure I got replacements but the Weather's made nothing. The last year I ran a few Charlaois and the weather lambs left a few more bob.

Another thing, is the hill farmer well represented in the IFA or ICSA?

From reading the journal I know the IFA have a Hill / upland representative.

Also from the teagasc perspective there is no upland sheep farm in the south west, I think there is one in Mayo but from what I saw they havn't put much research / time effort in to the sector.

I saw some research from a few years back online but nothing major.

To answer this bit above.

I am not one to talk of making money from them, being honest. But, the real good stock will always sell. With recording in it's infancy it's a mixture of a good eye, dark magic, and knowing everyone in the world connected with the breed to build a good flock. I don't rate my own too high quality wise but I'm usually overly hard on myself.

I'm looking at what's put on weight the quickest for me, and I'll pick and choose what I keep and my replacements with that in mind. A decent cheviot will make more, on average, over the years than blackface. A decent lowland cross will make more again but replacements must be thought of so a hill type ram will also be needed. There is a bit of a trend starting in silly money for blackface rams, given the price of weathers I'm disinclined to pay big money to buy one as the only way to recoup is to join that game. That's not what interests me right now, maybe it should.

Don't know about ICSA, but no is my answer in IFA higher up. There is a lack of understanding of the workings of hill farming, and a detectable lack of interest from national people I won't name. But farmers have been told by those people to let their ewes up on the hill, claim payments, and don't let a ram to the ewes. To me, that's pure fúckacting and nothing to be at at all never mind advising people to do it. Might as well sit on the street in Galway with a begging cup as do that, a person would have more self respect. It's poor form considering we have another national figure coming this way saying IFA represents all farmers, well please do so rather than the above. We do have good hill people in there on the hill committee, I won't criticise them as I know some of the work they're doing and I wouldn't be able for it, and wouldn't wish it on my second worst enemy. I am not sure they're getting the heed or support from above that they deserve. There is room for improvement. That's an honest opinion and not a dig just cos IFA was mentioned. I've been to enough meetings and talked to enough people now to say that.

Teagasc had a hill research farm the Mayo side of Leenane. It might be particular to my area but I don't know of any hill farm here that can cut silage, a lot of the land in the research farm you could cut silage. I guess they're replaced now by the Better Farm programme. I was on James Lallys farm near Louisburgh and he had good stock, fairly nice land too, looked reseeded. I haven't been to Colm McLaughlins farm in Sligo but I'd like to as I really liked what he had to say at the Hill Farming Forum, a man with a good head on his shoulders I would think. So I would like to see Teagasc take on a harder hill farm or three and work it as the land allows. For variety sake. I would like to see less concentrates, housing, silage, and more grass management, more genetics, making as much as possible from as little as possible. I am not saying they're not doing some or most of that, but I'd like to see some fair hard challenges and work them real hard being entirely profit focussed. Sometimes I get the feeling of lowland farming being superimposed on selected hill farms. Maybe I am being harsh, I don't intend to be, I just want to see something different. Maybe something more New Zealandish?

rancher

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Thanks, they looked good, but they didn't handle so well though.

Couple of the guys I asked regularly send lambs tot he factory, blackface lambs now. They reckoned it'd take two 25kg bags to finish them. Doing my maths that'd be €18-20 per lamb. They reckoned they'd make €70 then. So doing my sums I could sell for what I wanted before the mart €50, or spend say for arguments sake €18 per lamb and get €70. I figured I'd be a busy fool given the risk of one dying, no housing so possibility of bad weather, all sorts of risks and set backs. I thought the safer bet was take the €55 and run. Maybe they'd make more than the €70, I don't know, never sent a lamb to the factory myself, abattoir for family friends etc but not factory.

If I was going to fatten for factory I'd want to educate myself a lot better on the ins and outs of it, least I get caught out financially. The trouble with hill farming is the ground I have to work with and the animal I need to use to survive and produce on that ground. Whether I'm right or wrong in doing it I'm looking to improve my grass and it's management to gain there, rather than from the bag. I would love to include genetics in that but unfortunately in blackface the recording is in it's infancy and in cheviot it's pretty much non existent in this country. I will likely look at importing a recorded cheviot ram next year from the UK. If I were allowed up in numbers I could then cross my mongrel blackface cheviot cross with something more terminal. Saw not so good chev/suffolk/something ewe lambs go €70 today. But, it all goes back to my ground and survival and I need to keep an eye always on a strong replacement policy.

Thanks to STAP I am identifying good and poor ewes and replacements. If I had ewes producing two lambs in around the 35-40kg at weaning I'd be happy for 50% of my current flock to have twins as they'd pay me. Right now, I'll concentrate on improving. We are hamstrung by bureaucracy as per the other thread discussion.

I would have thought you were getting more than €75 per lamb for yours (well lowland lambs is what I mean) in the factory? Maybe I took you up wrong and you mean the equivalent 18kg carcass, tired, brain not working right. I think I remember Username John mentioning not being happy with €91 earlier in the year. I remember seeing pictures of your stock on here, I wouldn't take €55 for them either, you'd have to be a fool to do that.

No. was just setting you the target of 18kg deadweight, taking into consideration the breed and size of your lambs, but if they're 42kg without feeding, they should easily go over 20kg dead with feed
We aim for 21-21.5kg here, but have 100 lambs out of one year old ewes in the weights your sheep are at, and they won't have the ability to reach 21kg deadweight
Feeding meal here at the moment ad lib, there eating 1kg/day and putting on 2kg/wk, also increases killout by 2-3%.
I know that I should be able to get them out on grass alone but I haven't been able to do it.

Conmaicne Mara

rancher wrote: »

No. was just setting you the target of 18kg deadweight, taking into consideration the breed and size of your lambs, but if they're 42kg without feeding, they should easily go over 20kg dead with feed
We aim for 21-21.5kg here, but have 100 lambs out of one year old ewes in the weights your sheep are at, and they won't have the ability to reach 21kg deadweight

What would an 18kg make in the factory then I wonder?

I remember from earlier in the year one or two bags of feed was getting one guys lambs to 36kg and above - depending on the condition they started from. I suppose to get to 18kg deadweight they'd have to be around the 40kg liveweight. Do able, my problem would be drafting with my low numbers I could have a mix of lambs in all different weights at any one time.

There's mixed thinking on castration, Teagasc and some farmers going against it, other farmers saying it's a necessity.

That would be something I'd like to get to, getting lambs off here on grass, it could be probably is a pipedream on my ground :pac: If I get things right next Spring I will try a bit of reseeding.

rancher

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

What would an 18kg make in the factory then I wonder?

I remember from earlier in the year one or two bags of feed was getting one guys lambs to 36kg and above - depending on the condition they started from. I suppose to get to 18kg deadweight they'd have to be around the 40kg liveweight. Do able, my problem would be drafting with my low numbers I could have a mix of lambs in all different weights at any one time.

There's mixed thinking on castration, Teagasc and some farmers going against it, other farmers saying it's a necessity.

That's why I asked you earlier, are they worth the same as lowland lambs,
ICMs price with us goes from 16 kgs to 22kgs, so even 16kgs would make €66, but as you say you real problem is not having enough ready at the same time or not having a factory near you.
On reseeding, intensive sheep farmers in our group who are reseeding claim that unless they have typhon sowed every year, they have to resort to meal to finish their lambs

Conmaicne Mara

rancher wrote: »

That's why I asked you earlier, are they worth the same as lowland lambs,
ICMs price with us goes from 16 kgs to 22kgs, so even 16kgs would make €66, but as you say you real problem is not having enough ready at the same time or not having a factory near you.
On reseeding, intensive sheep farmers in our group who are reseeding claim that unless they have typhon sowed every year, they have to resort to meal to finish their lambs

Duh, you did, I claim tiredness. Only sold stores and breeding stock so I'd be guessing. I'll ask the lads the next time I'm talking to them. I might be as well off joining the Connemara Hill Lamb Producers group, if they'd have me. Hm, more thinking to do.

I will look in to Typhon. At the moment I'm looking to encourage the clover I have, had loads of it this year the way I managed the place.

Now that I think of it, Frank Hynes also costed fattening hill lambs. I'll see if I picked up a leaflet with the info on it, not sure I did.

Conmaicne Mara

Found the Teagasc figures, they are rating hill carcass as follows:

17.6kg carcass @ 44% KO, 40kg live @€;4.60kg 80.96, @€;4.80kg 84.48, @€;5.00 88.00

20kg carcass, 45kg live, @€;4.60 92, @€;4.80 96, @€;5.00 100

Yeah, it seems I am missing a trick.

Conmaicne Mara

Ok, got an answer, no, there isn't a difference in price.

But problem which was indicated to me and illustrated with a same day/different guy example was recognition, that if a person wasn't supplying the factory with large numbers they had a tendency to screw you on grading.

The producer group could involve a lot of travelling with small numbers, and or a call to delay a group of already fit lambs for a week or two.

I think I am on the right track not incurring cost. Now, how far I can push that we will see. I see two options, keep selling stores, or do some type of box scheme which has also been in my head.

supersean1999

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Found the Teagasc figures, they are rating hill carcass as follows:

17.6kg carcass @ 44% KO, 40kg live @€;4.60kg 80.96, @€;4.80kg 84.48, @€;5.00 88.00

20kg carcass, 45kg live, @€;4.60 92, @€;4.80 96, @€;5.00 100

Yeah, it seems I am missing a trick.

U are missing a trick. With the weight your lambs were . One bag Even 2 bags costing 12 euro apx. Would turn your lambs from 50 apx to 80e . I sell my smallest lambs and feed everything that will reach the weight without spending to much on them. . Its hard to get a mountain lamb to kill out 44% especially a ram lamb. 40-42% is more realistic.

Conmaicne Mara

supersean1999 wrote: »

U are missing a trick. With the weight your lambs were . One bag Even 2 bags costing 12 euro apx. Would turn your lambs from 50 apx to 80e . I sell my smallest lambs and feed everything that will reach the weight without spending to much on them. . Its hard to get a mountain lamb to kill out 44% especially a ram lamb. 40-42% is more realistic.

It's €4.10 at the moment I'm told, €70 is the max number I keep getting told from locals here..... Spose the only way for me to find out is do it next year.

Have you many lambs to sell in a year Sean? Would the factory know you fairly well? - not being nosey, it's something I have heard of before today.

Scale is my issue, not enough to do a proper draft.

supersean1999

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

It's €4.10 at the moment I'm told, €70 is the max number I keep getting told from locals here..... Spose the only way for me to find out is do it next year.

Have you many lambs to sell in a year Sean? Would the factory know you fairly well? - not being nosey, it's something I have heard of before today.

Scale is my issue, not enough to do a proper draft.

4-10 got 4-50 last week . Im in a group. Remember u did not feed your lambs and they made that weight If u started feeding them MID August. They would be a Few kg heavier by now. I fatten 100 apx . I sell twin mountain lambs and smaller singles. Only try to feed What reach a decent weight. Weight your lambs next yr and try two groups averaging same weights. Feed one group. And dont feed the other and Add up the figures after . Cash is the name of the game. Sorry cheques :-)

HillFarmer

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Frank Hynes of Teagasc had a display at the Better Hill Farm walks, I think Ireland exported 137 tons (I'm not missing any 0's) to Portugal at last count, which is way down from what they used to buy from us. "Buy" being the operative word, as there is still demand for our lamb, just no money to pay for it.

There are lads from this area on the BordBia stake holders board thingy, they're doing some good work in identifying markets, and marketing. I don't know all the ins and outs of it, just that they are progressive, proactive farmers with good heads on them. Short answer is it's farmers doing the work. I suppose it could be said they should be anyway, but then it could be said also what's BordBia there for? That "rain" TV ad still gives me gip.

My lambs would have been born from 17th March to around April 10th, with one very late straggler I'm not worried about. Yesterday I weighed all the wethers going to the mart, the heaviest being the horned cheviot cross lamb coming in at over 48kg, the lightest tiddler weighing in at just over 29.5kg. I haven't an average weight for each pen, I know I had three or four blackface wethers 42-43kg. Over half of the lambs I sold today were twins. With the 48+kg and a 43+kg being twins as well, just to give an idea.

What had I expected, well, it's a mart isn't it. It can be pot luck on the day depending on buyers but today was a day I identified to sell on early in the year from my own thinking. I have seen butcher fit blackface wethers sold there in recent weeks for €55. But, IMO, that's the wrong place to sell fleshy lambs, store lambs yes, fit to kill lambs should go elsewhere.

I split my lambs based on sizes not weights, as matched lots look better. I had it in my head I'd let the best of them go for €50. They were not fit to kill, with some a long way off that mark. They were dosed, vaccinated and trained to eat.

I did seek the opinions of some learned gentlemen there today who know what's what. Their opinion was 50-60 with most coming in at 50+, with the poorer pen reckoned to be €10 behind them. The auction started out poor which put the frightners on me a bit, I didn't want to bring them home but I would if I wasn't getting what I wanted for them. Once the bidding hit €50 I put them on the market, they made €55, the poorer pen made €43. I was reasonably happy with that.

I haven't costed them, but this Spring was unnatural so... I spent SFA on them since then, two or three doses, vaccination, and four or five bags of nuts just to train them to eat.

Next year I want to improve all of the above. It's not much compared to big lowland lambs but my lambs were well received there today and I can only compare them to what's around me, rather than say what I saw in the sheep tunnel at the Ploughing.

Didn't meant to type so much I'll answer the rest later, got stuff to go do now before dark.

Couple of photos, the 10 lamb photo is the best pen, the 7 the also rans. - don't know what I've done with that pic of the ten lambs, not working right from here anyway.

Cheers for that.

Jesus your doing very well at those weights. I could get the Car cross scotch to those weights (barely) but the scotch ram lambs only averaged 27KG on September 10th, born from march 17th same as yourself. The ram lambs were only ever on the hill, never brought them in from the hill apart from dosing and shearing/ weaning.

I see your scotch are the Mayo type, maybe that's a factor.
I often wondering about the Lanark or Swale dale whether they would give any better results.

Conmaicne Mara

HillFarmer wrote: »

Cheers for that.

Jesus your doing very well at those weights. I could get the Car cross scotch to those weights (barely) but the scotch ram lambs only averaged 27KG on September 10th, born from march 17th same as yourself. The ram lambs were only ever on the hill, never brought them in from the hill apart from dosing and shearing/ weaning.

I see your scotch are the Mayo type, maybe that's a factor.
I often wondering about the Lanark or Swale dale whether they would give any better results.

Just to compare, I weighed on the 6th of September with the average weight of my wether lambs coming in at 33.69kg.

Bit of a run down on my system.

I gave the ewes feed buckets at tipping last year to try for more couples, I'm not sure I'll do that this year as it worked out expensive.

When they went to the hill I made sure they had Nutribio mineral buckets, at €16 each I bought two and think they were good value on the hill.

Around the 22nd February I think I brought them home to feed pre lambing, and I worked up the feed to 1lbs per head two weeks before lambing. I believe I'm spending too much on concentrates in this period of the year.

Freakishly cold Spring then with lack of growth so that meant more conc's and some hay. I think they went back to the hill late May or early June. Kept the twins at home.

The twins at home got nothing, just grass. Save for the few bags of nuts lately to make sure they all knew how to eat for whoever would buy them.

Other stuff during the year:
Ewes and lambs would get bolused, ewes get fluke doses but I need to be better informed with those, lambs kept at home get FEC and dosed for worms if needed. All ewes get Hep P + 4-6 weeks before lambing, all lambs get two 2ml Hep P + vacs 4-6 weeks apart - tried not doing that with wether lambs one year and lost two the week before the sale :rolleyes:

Next year I will cobalt dose any lamb kept at home rather than bolus.

Just thinking about the flock and leaving the factory aside for the moment I will be looking to cut feed costs which are too high, manage what grass I can grow better and attempt to do more with less, while identifying which ewes and lambs "do" on that, and which fail and will be sent down the road.

Birth weight of lambs I think is vital, the heavier they are coming out of the ewe the better. The select the milkiest medium sized ewes that can push them lambs on, and manage the grass and keep a step ahead of the worms/disease.

F'kin hell, I'm not paid enough

I don't know if any of that might help you raise your weights?

Conmaicne Mara

Oh yeah, breeds I went rambling again and forgot.

I like Lanark myself. I've only one or two half lanark/half MC, which were put to a MC ram. One of those had twins, not sure on the other, but this one had one of the 40+kg lambs yesterday and a ewe lamb not far behind. I think they've a nicer shape, also and controversially, they have "tighter skin" which some people like a lot. It does make them look better, and squarer, I'm not sure myself it makes the weights any better but I only have them two so....

I don't know anything about the Swales, the ould fella had a Swaley ram a few years back, must ask him about him.

Nice little fluff info site here but interesting reading:

http://www.nationalsheep.org.uk/sheep-breeds.php

To give an idea, I weighed the ewes I kept at home, twins and a couple of walky bítches that weren't staying quiet in the hill for me and they averaged 52.5kg. Didn't weight what I sent to the hill, will do before they go see Dr Lurve. Ideally I'd like a medium sized ewe producing big lamb/lambs, having my cake and eating it I think that is Big ewe will eat more than a medium sized one, I think, that's my rationalisation for that anyway.

HillFarmer

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Just to compare, I weighed on the 6th of September with the average weight of my wether lambs coming in at 33.69kg.

Bit of a run down on my system.

I gave the ewes feed buckets at tipping last year to try for more couples, I'm not sure I'll do that this year as it worked out expensive.

When they went to the hill I made sure they had Nutribio mineral buckets, at €16 each I bought two and think they were good value on the hill.

Around the 22nd February I think I brought them home to feed pre lambing, and I worked up the feed to 1lbs per head two weeks before lambing. I believe I'm spending too much on concentrates in this period of the year.

Freakishly cold Spring then with lack of growth so that meant more conc's and some hay. I think they went back to the hill late May or early June. Kept the twins at home.

The twins at home got nothing, just grass. Save for the few bags of nuts lately to make sure they all knew how to eat for whoever would buy them.

Other stuff during the year:
Ewes and lambs would get bolused, ewes get fluke doses but I need to be better informed with those, lambs kept at home get FEC and dosed for worms if needed. All ewes get Hep P + 4-6 weeks before lambing, all lambs get two 2ml Hep P + vacs 4-6 weeks apart - tried not doing that with wether lambs one year and lost two the week before the sale :rolleyes:

Next year I will cobalt dose any lamb kept at home rather than bolus.

Just thinking about the flock and leaving the factory aside for the moment I will be looking to cut feed costs which are too high, manage what grass I can grow better and attempt to do more with less, while identifying which ewes and lambs "do" on that, and which fail and will be sent down the road.

Birth weight of lambs I think is vital, the heavier they are coming out of the ewe the better. The select the milkiest medium sized ewes that can push them lambs on, and manage the grass and keep a step ahead of the worms/disease.

F'kin hell, I'm not paid enough

I don't know if any of that might help you raise your weights?

Cheers,
being new to the sector the last few years I always found it tough finding realistic info from Hill farmers. Found this today aswell, midnight reading

http://www.afbini.gov.uk/sheepbooklet.pdf

Conmaicne Mara

supersean1999 wrote: »

4-10 got 4-50 last week . Im in a group. Remember u did not feed your lambs and they made that weight If u started feeding them MID August. They would be a Few kg heavier by now. I fatten 100 apx . I sell twin mountain lambs and smaller singles. Only try to feed What reach a decent weight. Weight your lambs next yr and try two groups averaging same weights. Feed one group. And dont feed the other and Add up the figures after . Cash is the name of the game. Sorry cheques :-)

Questions for you Sean, when you start feeding your lambs, how much do you give per head per day? Start them gently I assume so as not to sicken them.

I'm guessing you're weaning mid August and bringing them down from the hill then as well.

supersean1999

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Questions for you Sean, when you start feeding your lambs, how much do you give per head per day? Start them gently I assume so as not to sicken them.

I'm guessing you're weaning mid August and bringing them down from the hill then as well.

Shear last Few days of july and leave ewes at home for 2 weeks . Its a great way to walk through them every day and spot the ewes with bad lambs etc. They would get feck all at the start. 1/2 lb and Keep rising it.and dose dose dose . Iv found that there is no point letting lamb get thinner once u take them off ewe.

Conmaicne Mara

Letter in today's Journal by Tom Fadian outlining just some issues facing hill farmers.

tommy5678

HillFarmer wrote: »

Hi all,

Just wondering what you thoughts are on this. With the ending of Reps and the mickey mouse AEOS schemes, reduction in DAS and light lamb market non existent, is there a viable future in the sector?

Just looking at prices in the mart for scotch ram lambs and it would make you cry. I'm relatively new to the sector 4 or 5 years but relay enjoyed the work.

Would love to hear your opinions

how much are scotch ram lambs makeing i have some 40 kgs and more 28-30

tommy5678

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Ok, got an answer, no, there isn't a difference in price.

But problem which was indicated to me and illustrated with a same day/different guy example was recognition, that if a person wasn't supplying the factory with large numbers they had a tendency to screw you on grading.

The producer group could involve a lot of travelling with small numbers, and or a call to delay a group of already fit lambs for a week or two.

I think I am on the right track not incurring cost. Now, how far I can push that we will see. I see two options, keep selling stores, or do some type of box scheme which has also been in my head.

was

tommy5678

also scotch rams 25 to 27 kg what will these make