First Years

vamos!

I have three first year groups this year (different subjects). I am used to first years being a bit helpless but this cohort are the opposite and are driving me nuts. Even though they are 3 different class groups they all have 4 or 5 kids who seem to think they know better than me. Every instruction comes with a helpful 'suggestion' like 'should we not leave that to the next day', 'would it not be better to write it down now rather than after you have explained it', , 'have we not done enough exercises on this already', 'would our test not be better on...' etc etc etc! It sounds so silly but it is driving me crazy. They don't put hands up, they sit back in the chairs while 'suggesting' improvements like a colleague would! They are not bold or cheeky but just seem to think they are mini-adults and have a right to challenge everything and speak as adults rather than young students. Does anyone else have this? Is it just a strange group or has confidence turned to arrogance? Are they used to having the final say at home? I really don't know how to deal with it without being overly harsh. I am doing all of the usual insisting on hands up before speaking and stuff but they really seem to think it is acceptable to ask me to justify my actions constantly.

SCOOP 64

Sounds like your teaching my son, i think kids are advancing a lot quicker these days,
Facebook, Talk sites, kids chatting for hrs with each other on line, building confidence, and always have a opinion on everything, cant believe the things my son comes out ,"would you not be better doing this or that Dad ." Times are changing. i know the on line i should but a stop to it, but then you get "your
cutting me off from all my friends". See you at next parents meeting, god help me!.

vamos!

SCOOP 64 wrote: »

Sounds like your teaching my son, i think kids are advancing a lot quicker these days,
Facebook, Talk sites, kids chatting for hrs with each other on line, building confidence, and always have a opinion on everything, cant believe the things my son comes out ,"would you not be better doing this or that Dad ." Times are changing.

Makes sense I suppose. It is hugely irritating when there are 5 or so interjections per class and then I have to be really stern so it doesn't turn into a class debate. I'm still relatively young and not from the children should be seen and not heard generation but this year is just crazy! I have never been quizzed on my planning (which I do!!) or subject knowledge by 1st years. I suppose confidence is a good thing. I might start typing up my lesson plans and handing them out in advance so students can critique and amend. Or maybe I might just let them teach me

SCOOP 64

Can understand your frustration but you have to determine the border line of a child expressing a opinion and one being cheeky.

2011abc

Not sure if it's a reflection on me , pupils ( or school?) but I find First Years grand , Seconds ok and Third Years AWFUL , certainly by end of year . What the HECK do we do to them from Year 1 to 3 to turn them from little dotes who file in and out with their polite Hello's and Bye's to sneering Antichrists ???!!!Anyone else feel the same ? Solutions? Is this negative cynicism just part and parcel of 'growing up '?

Pwpane

vamos! wrote: »

Makes sense I suppose. It is hugely irritating when there are 5 or so interjections per class and then I have to be really stern so it doesn't turn into a class debate. I'm still relatively young and not from the children should be seen and not heard generation but this year is just crazy! I have never been quizzed on my planning (which I do!!) or subject knowledge by 1st years. I suppose confidence is a good thing. I might start typing up my lesson plans and handing them out in advance so students can critique and amend. Or maybe I might just let them teach me

They're undermining you. Call their bluff.

Talk to the culprits after the class. Tell them that you're impressed with the thought they're giving to methods of teaching, and you're giving them a small section each (or as a group) to teach, over a specific period, in the way they think it should be taught. They must include visual aids, homework and a test that they correct at the end. You could assess their performance and grade them, and include a comment on their report.

It could work out very well and you might like to make it a regular feature. It could look very good for you as a teaching/learning technique. They would learn a lot, gain understanding and respect, and you would regain control.

Or they could back off, and you regain control.

Just a thought.

f3232

vamos! wrote: »

I It sounds so silly but it is driving me crazy. They don't put hands up, they sit back in the chairs while 'suggesting' improvements like a colleague would!

They are not bold or cheeky but just seem to think they are mini-adults and have a right to challenge everything and speak as adults rather than young students.

Not putting your hand and slouching on chairs is bold and cheeky.

Be very prepared for class.

Maintain your discipline standards, be fair but do not let them away with any cheek at all. You will get them back on track and they will respect you.

f3232

Pwpane wrote: »

They're undermining you. Call their bluff.

Talk to the culprits after the class. Tell them that you're impressed with the thought they're giving to methods of teaching, and you're giving them a small section each (or as a group) to teach, over a specific period, in the way they think it should be taught. They must include visual aids, homework and a test that they correct at the end. You could assess their performance and grade them, and include a comment on their report.

It could work out very well and you might like to make it a regular feature. It could look very good for you as a teaching/learning technique. They would learn a lot, gain understanding and respect, and you would regain control.

Or they could back off, and you regain control.

Just a thought.

Don't do this they will turn it into you victimizing them. no offence OP

evolving_doors

f3232 wrote: »

Don't do this they will turn it into you victimizing them. no offence OP

I'd would respectfully disagree here ft3232, I also have a first year group like this and have been lucky enough to observe other teachers with the same group. Teacher totally shut down any interjections from day one , didn't make a meal of the giving out but kept the pace of the class fairly brisk (high teacher talk time). Gradually a bit of easing up once they knew their place. Whereas I did a bit of entertaining interjections and justifying my actions with the same class...now I can see I have to be twice the #### than the other teacher to regain some dignity.
So don't worry about recriminations , they obviously feel they can take liberties in your class which the don't dare in others.

Plan of action for ya..
1. Learn all their names ASAP (I've seen teachers staring and memorising a list of names before even meeting a class, and using it to great effect in the first class).
2. Suss out other teachers experiences of the same class...as the saying goes..if you havn't found out who the sucker is in a poker game after the first ten minutes then chances are ITS YOU....if the other teachers say they have no problems then your the sucker...if they concur that they are a difficult class then maybe coordinate a crackdown to let them know they are being watched!
3. Halt the class and draw up class contract.
4. Be extremely strict on homework, and very critical if they fail to follow basic instruction.
5. When you speak or question tell them to put pens down out of their hands .

Best of luck...

mockingjay

Good advice, but don't forget to assess their background knowledge (just in case like history they have just covered it in primary). Then get them to share their knowledge with the class. This will give you a good starting point. What type of school is this - fee-paying/VEC etc? and what subjects are you teaching - raise the bar just above their level and this might settle them back down a little. I agree if they're not settled now you'll have a job on your hands for the next three years. For example, for a suggestion like 'would the test not be better' throw the question out to the class - "would you rather a test on this tomorrow", see what the consensus is, gauge their results - then you'll know where to begin in future.

f3232

Armelodie wrote: »

I'd would respectfully disagree here ft3232

What are you disagreeing with me on?

evolving_doors

f3232 wrote: »

What are you disagreeing with me on?

apologies I meant to say I disagreed with pwpanes suggestion of engaging with their ideas..I agree with you ft3232...

vamos!

Thanks for the replies.I may have phrased my post badly. The students aren't bold. The greet me, open doors, say please and thank you. They just act like children who have never been made put their hand up or wait to speak. Their homework is impeccable and they appear to be a bright gang(usual mixed ability of course). I was wondering if it was society, changes at primary school level or just pure coincidence that put a large cohort of what I consider to be over-confident teens in my classes. Or is the media smear campaign against teachers filtering down to the students who think we are here to serve as they consider fit? I work in a voluntary secondary school so Mom and Dad don't pay my wages.

vamos!

SCOOP 64 wrote: »

Can understand your frustration but you have to determine the border line of a child expressing a opinion and one being cheeky.

These children are expressing an opinion.They are not being cheeky. The classes, however, are too big and their are too many abilities in one room for me to be able to listen to opinions being thrown around on a regular basis. Maybe the children come from smaller families so are used to more concentrated adult attention as and when the wish.... feel like a child psychologist with my theories! My colleagues feel the same. I was just wondering if they are a strange group in comparison with previous years or if this is thay way things are going.

implausible

I wonder did they all come from the same primary school. Maybe they were encouraged to offer opinions of what was being taught.

As for how to deal with it - do you do the learning objectives at the beginning of class and review at the end? Perhaps if they know the exact structure of the class and are told firmly that this is how it's going to be, it might cut out a lot of this craic. Also, if they were given the occasional structured opportunity to give feedback, you could tell them to save it for then and regain a bit of peace in the class. We are being encouraged to self-assess so it'd be killing two birds with one stone.

evolving_doors

Ya, I suppose its swings and roundabouts though. One year (2006 I think). We had a fairly difficult year group ...nobody could put their finger on it untill someone (biology teacher of course!) worked out they were all conceived around a particular world cup! Not really great science but the year after them were a great bunch!
Unfortunately though you can throw as many ipads and 'best practices' at it but the real problem is packenemin and numbers.

mockingjay wrote: »

Good advice, but don't forget to assess their background knowledge (just in case like history they have just covered it in primary). Then get them to share their knowledge with the class. This will give you a good starting point. What type of school is this - fee-paying/VEC etc? and what subjects are you teaching - raise the bar just above their level and this might settle them back down a little. I agree if they're not settled now you'll have a job on your hands for the next three years. For example, for a suggestion like 'would the test not be better' throw the question out to the class - "would you rather a test on this tomorrow", see what the consensus is, gauge their results - then you'll know where to begin in future.

First of all different strokes for different folks (and I aint no mister chips myself either)..but..if the OP starts to entertain ideas then his cards are marked..Also assessing what they ALL know is very labour intensive esp. if they've come from different schools.
I'd say entertain nothing (questions at the end will show if theyre genuinely keen..or just showing off to the other newbies.... I bet theyll leggit out the door).
Shut them down..only one person speaks at a time..put up your hand (but prefer questions at the end)...
Generally i don't teach like this as the first years are willing to go along and stay engaged. But like the OP I got suckerpunched with the same type of class this year and only copped that they were swinging the lead in my class. Main reason I reckon is because they asserted their status amongst peers moreso in my class as other teachers had them under the thumb from day one...what gave it away was the way the quiet students reacted to their interjections as if theyd never witnessed it before..

Btw OP (before I come across as a complete nazi)... suss out the quiet ones that probably go under the radar and engage with them. Its easy for a few to taint your opinions of the whole class.

f3232

vamos! wrote: »

Thanks for the replies.I may have phrased my post badly. The students aren't bold. .

Kids who don't put their hand up to speak and who seem to have very little manners, call me old fashioned but i call that bold.

rainbowtrout

vamos! wrote: »

These children are expressing an opinion.They are not being cheeky. The classes, however, are too big and their are too many abilities in one room for me to be able to listen to opinions being thrown around on a regular basis. Maybe the children come from smaller families so are used to more concentrated adult attention as and when the wish.... feel like a child psychologist with my theories! My colleagues feel the same. I was just wondering if they are a strange group in comparison with previous years or if this is thay way things are going.

12 year olds telling you how to run your class, dictating how many exercises are acceptable for them to absorb the information and when you should run tests and what the content of those assessments should be is being cheeky. You are at the adult in the room and you make the decisions. You are the one with the degree and teaching qualification. Take back control of your classroom. I certainly wouldn't tolerate 12 year olds telling me how to do my job.

spurious

If their parents haven't bothered to do it, the first thing you have to do with them is teach them how to behave themselves in an acceptable manner in your classroom. There are many occasions in life where they will have to adjust their behaviour from what they 'feel like doing'. They may as well start learning now, late and all as it is.

Drag00n79

Armelodie wrote: »

One year (2006 I think). We had a fairly difficult year group ...nobody could put their finger on it untill someone (biology teacher of course!) worked out they were all conceived around a particular world cup!

I don't see the link with the World Cup here.

evolving_doors

Shamrok wrote: »

I don't see the link with the World Cup here.

I didn't either, but seemed as plausible as any sociological reason.

The suggestion at the time was that excessive alcohol consumption (during world cup..italia 90 I think..)was affecting the developing foetus..

Bananatop

rainbowtrout wrote: »

12 year olds telling you how to run your class, dictating how many exercises are acceptable for them to absorb the information and when you should run tests and what the content of those assessments should be is being cheeky. You are at the adult in the room and you make the decisions. You are the one with the degree and teaching qualification. Take back control of your classroom. I certainly wouldn't tolerate 12 year olds telling me how to do my job.

And to add to this, the responsibility of what happens in class and student progress lies with the teacher. Unless there comes a time when students are equally culpable for anything that happens in class, the teacher must always have the first and final word on how the class is run.