Minimum Taper

TomD101

Hey, running my second marathon in couple of weeks. Tore my calf in September and missed three weeks of training pretty much so was feeling the pinch at Athlone Three Quarter with a poor enough time of 3hr10.

Can anyone let me know if what i have planned of 2 x 20 mile long runs for next two weekends would be a bad idea? Would a 1 week easy week be enough before the marathon? Im trying to maximise my chances of running 3hr40 marathon without blowing up and hobbling home from 18 miles in.

Any thoughts appreciated! Thanks

Kissy Lips

TomD101 wrote: »

Hey, running my second marathon in couple of weeks. Tore my calf in September and missed three weeks of training pretty much so was feeling the pinch at Athlone Three Quarter with a poor enough time of 3hr10.

Can anyone let me know if what i have planned of 2 x 20 mile long runs for next two weekends would be a bad idea? Would a 1 week easy week be enough before the marathon? Im trying to maximise my chances of running 3hr40 marathon without blowing up and hobbling home from 18 miles in.

Any thoughts appreciated! Thanks

I would do that. However more like 21 then 16.

PVincent

More chance of you blowing up if you go into a marathon tired, which IS what will happen if you do two three hour runs in the weekends before Dublin. 3.40 looks ambitious, based on your 3/4 time , so why not just run to get around. Forget any time target. Run and enjoy the day, rather than putting pressure on yourself. Putting extra strain on your calf after such a nasty injury is not worth it , and if you make them sore from two long runs, the calf could suffer on the day. My humble opinion is to give yourself a confidence boosting 15/16 miles ( max 2.30 run) and then ease up completely . I have always preferred a 3 week taper to arrive fresh on the start line but it is something we all need to work out ourselves with experience.

average_runner

TomD101 wrote: »

Hey, running my second marathon in couple of weeks. Tore my calf in September and missed three weeks of training pretty much so was feeling the pinch at Athlone Three Quarter with a poor enough time of 3hr10.

Can anyone let me know if what i have planned of 2 x 20 mile long runs for next two weekends would be a bad idea? Would a 1 week easy week be enough before the marathon? Im trying to maximise my chances of running 3hr40 marathon without blowing up and hobbling home from 18 miles in.

Any thoughts appreciated! Thanks

You did a 20 last weekend, was that all out?

If it was all out stick to 16 this weekend and 12 the following weekend.
If it wasn't all out, i would do 18 easy and 12 the following weekend.

You can't make up for lost time, if you try you will suffer

Krusty_Clown

If you were an experienced runner, who typically chalks up 60+mpw, I'd have no hesitation in opining that a two week taper would be grand (i.e. 20 this weekend and 16 the following weekend), but you have to be realistic. There is a decent chance that running two back to back 20 mile runs will leave you tired, niggly, and potentially flare up what sounds like a pretty nasty injury. Was your calf actually torn? Recovery from a torn calf muscle is typically 5 weeks - 3 months. On the back of an injury like that, what you should really be asking yourself is: 'What time should I be aiming for that will not impact the problems I have had with my calf?'

On the subject of what you should actually run for the next two weeks, it is better to be undertrained than arrive at the start line with a limp/injury. I'd err on the side of caution, and go for 18 miles/12 miles. If you feel any re-occurrence of the injury during the long run or race, then pull out immediately. You need to drop your time goals and go with what feels achievable on the day.

Gavlor

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

If you were an experienced runner, who typically chalks up 60+mpw, I'd have no hesitation in opining that a two week taper would be grand (i.e. 20 this weekend and 16 the following weekend), but you have to be realistic. There is a decent chance that running two back to back 20 mile runs will leave you tired, niggly, and potentially flare up what sounds like a pretty nasty injury. Was your calf actually torn? Recovery from a torn calf muscle is typically 5 weeks - 3 months. On the back of an injury like that, what you should really be asking yourself is: 'What time should I be aiming for that will not impact the problems I have had with my calf?'

On the subject of what you should actually run for the next two weeks, it is better to be undertrained than arrive at the start line with a limp/injury. I'd err on the side of caution, and go for 18 miles/12 miles. If you feel any re-occurrence of the injury during the long run or race, then pull out immediately. You need to drop your time goals and go with what feels achievable on the day.

Out of curiosity, would the extra 2 miles this weekend really have that much of a physical impact?

I would think that the mental benefit and confidence boost attained from hitting the 20 mile mark would outweigh the potential tiredness/niggle caused by an extra 2 miles.

TomD101

Gavlor wrote: »

Out of curiosity, would the extra 2 miles this weekend really have that much of a physical impact?

I would think that the mental benefit and confidence boost attained from hitting the 20 mile mark would outweigh the potential tiredness/niggle caused by an extra 2 miles.

thanks for taking the time for the responses guys. Basically I'm trying to balance going in with some confidence that I have put in the long run miles in training with arriving fresh and uninjured. I missed the main two and a half weeks in my programme (which would peak at 55 miles for a week) and feeling that I'm pretty undertrained at the moment. The last 10k in the 3/4 marathon last week I blew up thru the lack of having training in the legs with the 20k prior being fine and ok pace. Only have done 1x15, 1x16, 1x17, 1x19 prior to the 3/4 marathon.

To be honest I just enjoyed the day two years ago and turned the watch off and took it easy for a 4 hour tim. I don’t really want to do that again and was on course in my training for in and aaround 3hr30 time prior to getting injured (grade 2 calf tear btw). I kind of want to push myself over the next couple of weeks and on the day itself and if that goes pear shaped so be it but at least I'll be happy that I attempted to run an ok time.

Recovery wise I think I should be ok to be recovered from a 20 mile run in 7 days pre race. Would anyone have any more info on why longer tapering is beneficial?

I don’t really think the marathon would be an achievement for me if I didn’t try and get the max I can out of it in the coming weeks in an attempt to run to a race pace on the day. Open to suggestions in how to try and achieve that!

Krusty_Clown

Gavlor wrote: »

Out of curiosity, would the extra 2 miles this weekend really have that much of a physical impact?

I would think that the mental benefit and confidence boost attained from hitting the 20 mile mark would outweigh the potential tiredness/niggle caused by an extra 2 miles.

You're forgetting that the OP ran the Athlone 3/4 marathon last week, which is 19.65 miles, probably at faster than 'long easy run' pace. Two miles would be 15-20 minutes less running than the OP did last week, so at least there's some form of conceptual taper (even if it's more psychological than actual). That's still a 10% difference. Also, to hypothesize your point: if you're doing 20 miles, why not just do 22? If you're doing 22, why not 24?....... You have to draw the line in the sand somewhere.

Many beginner marathon programs don't even feature a single 20 mile run (instead focussing on 'three hour runs' which would typically manifest as an 18 mile run, for a 4 hour - 4:30 runner, at easy pace). The Higdon Novice programs feature a single 20 mile run three weeks out from the goal marathon, which pretty much matches the OP's run-up. Back to back 20 mile runs without step-back weeks are tough on the body for newcomers to marathon running, or as is more relevant to the OP, those recovering from leg injuries. Why risk aggravating it?

TomD1: I don't mean to refer to you as a novice, but rather suggest that based on your recent injury and training profile, you should be taking a step back and aiming for a time that will not put yourself at further risk of injury.

Let me ask you a question:

• You have a 40% chance of completing a marathon in 3:40, a 30% chance of not making the start line and a 30% chance of a grade three calf tear
• You have an 90% chance of completing a marathon in 4:00 and a 10% chance of a calf tear

Obviously all hypothetical figures, but which option would you choose? How important is the time to you, and are you willing to risk further injury? What did your physio say?

Gavlor

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

You're forgetting that the OP ran the Athlone 3/4 marathon last week, which is 19.65 miles, probably at faster than 'long easy run' pace. Two miles would be 15-20 minutes less running than the OP did last week, so at least there's some form of conceptual taper (even if it's more psychological than actual). That's still a 10% difference. Also, to hypothesize your point: if you're doing 20 miles, why not just do 22? If you're doing 22, why not 24?....... You have to draw the line in the sand somewhere.

Many beginner marathon programs don't even feature a single 20 mile run (instead focussing on 'three hour runs' which would typically manifest as an 18 mile run, for a 4 hour - 4:30 runner, at easy pace). The Higdon Novice programs feature a single 20 mile run three weeks out from the goal marathon, which pretty much matches the OP's run-up. Back to back 20 mile runs without step-back weeks are tough on the body for newcomers to marathon running, or as is more relevant to the OP, those recovering from leg injuries. Why risk aggravating it?

TomD1: I don't mean to refer to you as a novice, but rather suggest that based on your recent injury and training profile, you should be taking a step back and aiming for a time that will not put yourself at further risk of injury.

Let me ask you a question:

• You have a 40% chance of completing a marathon in 3:40, a 30% chance of not making the start line and a 30% chance of a grade three calf tear
• You have an 90% chance of completing a marathon in 4:00 and a 10% chance of a calf tear

Obviously all hypothetical figures, but which option would you choose? How important is the time to you, and are you willing to risk further injury? What did your physio say?

That last bit is spot on.

Though comparing 18-20 miles to 22-24 miles is not particularly relative. It's widely accepted that the body enters the redzone from 22 miles or so.

That said op, listen to krusty he knows alot more than me about this sort of stuff!!

dekbhoy

YOLO just go for it , doesnt work out go again next year, life is too short to be over cautious. the satisfaction if you make your time will be fantastic on the other hand if you pull up injured at least you were been honest with yourself and at least you can say you gave it a go.

career_move

dekbhoy wrote: »

YOLO just go for it , doesnt work out go again next year, life is too short to be over cautious. the satisfaction if you make your time will be fantastic on the other hand if you pull up injured at least you were been honest with yourself and at least you can say you gave it a go.

Ya and I'm sure that will be very comforting if you end up with complete rupture of the calf muscle and a permanent limp.

PVincent

Sometimes you wonder why people ask for advice on boards.

ger664

dekbhoy wrote: »

YOLO just go for it , doesnt work out go again next year, life is too short to be over cautious. the satisfaction if you make your time will be fantastic on the other hand if you pull up injured at least you were been honest with yourself and at least you can say you gave it a go.

Its better to take this one easy reduces the risk of tearing the calf again and would be in great shape to train through the winter and have a decent crack at a time in a spring marathon.

TomD101

Thanks for the comments lads, found Krustys post very informative and useful.

Spring marathon won't be an option unfortunately as I am abroad for the first six months of 2014 so want to give this one a proper go.

I ended up doing a 20 miler yesterday in 3 hours, felt good for the vast majority of it and no injuries or strains thankfully. Feeling ok today too. :pac:

I was leaning towards starting the taper this week with a 13/ 16 mile run next Sunday.

Should we do a vote... most popular decision gets to be my plan for the next two weeks?!

Krusty_Clown

TomD101 wrote: »

Thanks for the comments lads, found Krustys post very informative and useful.

Spring marathon won't be an option unfortunately as I am abroad for the first six months of 2014 so want to give this one a proper go.

I ended up doing a 20 miler yesterday in 3 hours, felt good for the vast majority of it and no injuries or strains thankfully. Feeling ok today too. :pac:

I was leaning towards starting the taper this week with a 13/ 16 mile run next Sunday.

Should we do a vote... most popular decision gets to be my plan for the next two weeks?!

Having a random group of people on the internet decide your strategy/fate? Ehmm.....

I vote for 13!

nerraw1111

Surely there should be a ban for using YOLO?

While I generally agree with the whole just go for it, it doesn't apply to injuries. In fact, YOLO so don't risk months out by doing something a bit daft.

Great advice by kc and Gavlor

macinalli

Coming late to this, but it rang a few bells as I also picked up a grade 2 strain on the run up to Dublin a few years ago. My 2 cents i that 13/16 this weekend doesn't matter that much - it's not going to make that big a difference WRT your overall fitness.

What will make a difference though is stretching - lots of it. I'm sure your physio gave you stretches to do, and if you're like most runners then you'll be giving them up soon - don't! Keep doing these religiously, as if the calf decides to announce itself on race day, it'll most likely be through tightness, cramping etc.

The other thing I'd recommend is to be flexible with your plans on race day. I know you were set for a 3.30, but marathon training takes it's toll and that time just mightn't be an option anymore. That doesn't mean you'll run 4 hrs again, but if for example you need to back off the pace and finish with a 3.40, then that's a damn good result under the circumstances.

kit3

nerraw1111 wrote: »

Surely there should be a ban for using YOLO?

So not with it that I had to look up YOLO Best of luck with whatever you decide op

TomD101

macinalli wrote: »

Coming late to this, but it rang a few bells as I also picked up a grade 2 strain on the run up to Dublin a few years ago. My 2 cents i that 13/16 this weekend doesn't matter that much - it's not going to make that big a difference WRT your overall fitness.

What will make a difference though is stretching - lots of it. I'm sure your physio gave you stretches to do, and if you're like most runners then you'll be giving them up soon - don't! Keep doing these religiously, as if the calf decides to announce itself on race day, it'll most likely be through tightness, cramping etc.

The other thing I'd recommend is to be flexible with your plans on race day. I know you were set for a 3.30, but marathon training takes it's toll and that time just mightn't be an option anymore. That doesn't mean you'll run 4 hrs again, but if for example you need to back off the pace and finish with a 3.40, then that's a damn good result under the circumstances.

I was actually originally planning for another long run (20ish) until the advice here said otherwise so I'll take what the lads said on board and keep it light between now and the marathon. I'm glad I did the 20 miles yesterday thou, was nice to get thru a long run for the first time in ages without some sort of injury or niggle at the end of it, nice confidence booster.

I think the 3h30 is not likely going on the 20 mile times for the last two weeks. I'll probably plan to run with the 3hr40 pace group on the day and try to hang on with them!