Questions on letting ground

Username John

Hello all,

I am looking at my options as to what I will do next year with the farm, this is my last year in REPS.

I am not heavily stocked, so in short - the ground is not being used as efficiently as it could be.

The conclusion I am coming to is that I would be better off letting some of it, and keeping the bit around the house which I would be able to manage.

I am not sure I want to go down the long term lease just yet.
I have heard lads mention an 11 month lease? Is this the other alternative?
When do these normally run from & to?

How would this short term lease affect my SFP? Do I still claim it, even though I wouldn't be farming the land for 2014? (well, not for 11 months of 2014)
Do shorter lease terms exist, or should I just look at selling two cuts of silage?

In terms of a long term lease - how would this affect SFP? Or does the SFP go with the land, and it is factored into the rental price?
(I assume I lose the SFP over time, if I am not actively farming the land?)

Anything else I should be aware of when letting ground? (either short or long term)

Like I say, just looking at it as an option right now...

Thanks for reading.

iverjohnston

If you let the land on a formal contract, you cannot receive SFP. You have to farm it.
You can, I believe, set a few meadows for silage , first cut and then second cut, just stick them up on done deal or Adverts.ie each time, when the time comes. You could make the fodder yourself and sell it in the winter, but unless in a severe shortage, there isn't much to be made of it.

Conmaicne Mara

Would you not up numbers John?

Username John

iverjohnston wrote: »

If you let the land on a formal contract, you cannot receive SFP. You have to farm it.
You can, I believe, set a few meadows for silage , first cut and then second cut, just stick them up on done deal or Adverts.ie each time, when the time comes. You could make the fodder yourself and sell it in the winter, but unless in a severe shortage, there isn't much to be made of it.

What happens to the SFP in this case?

Not that it matters too much in real terms - you'd swear I had a massive SFP But I am keen to understand what happens.
Will it go to the farmer renting the land?

Username John

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Would you not up numbers John?

Hi Con,

Yeah, its been, and still is a bit of a internal debate.

I upped numbers over the last few years (not to any kinda high numbers now, but started with around 20, and went to 70 last year)

But time is my biggest problem now, and it wont get any easier as we have another baby due in Jan

Whilst I would still like to keep on a few (maybe 30 or 40) I think any more than this becomes awkward for me, in terms of housing, and management in general throughout the year.

Plus, its part time for me. So the day job has to take precedence, which is harder as numbers increase.

So I think the reality is, as much as I kinda don't like to say it - that I would be better off with a few ewes, just for the interest, which I can easily manage. Still have some family time, and either let the remaining few acres, or sell for silage...

Acourse, there is a part of me that says I should get less "management intense" ewes, than the suffolk kinda ones I have...
But I would still see Saturdays lost with dosing, and treating for lameness, more lambs to weigh, etc. Its all time...
Whereas with 30 - 40, 50 - 65 lambs or so... I think that's a nice manageable number...

What do you think? Any recommendations or words of wisdom for me?

Conmaicne Mara

I'm a glutton for punishment so my thinking would be to increase. Saying that I don't have a baby on the way.

I would examine exactly what is taking your time and try to find solutions to those issues. My breed don't suffer many feet problems, but they're not a breed I'd have on land as good as yours. If you're turning up a lot of sheep, or spending time waiting by the side of a footbath well, I look at it this way - Money spent can be made again, time can't. I won't tell you to change breed, up to you to weigh the pro's and con's of them. Maybe there's a strain of suffolk with less foot problems than others, I don't know. I'll go against myself now and say would a maternal breed suit you a bit better for the time being, you're all lowland right? You could stock back up with suffolks again another time.

Dosing. What sort of facilities have you? Are you catching each lamb in a pen then dosing them then refilling a gun each time? Or do you have a race, and automatic gun and a drum of dose on your back? For worms, weigh your heaviest three or four then lash it into them. Can't, AFAIK, harm them with an overdose of worm dose.

Weighing lambs yeah, got me there. Only thing that holds me up doing that is the time it takes the digital scale to decide on an exact weight. I still prefer it to a clock with the amount of jumping my lambs do in the crate, it'd never settle. How often do you weigh them, are you doing too much of it?

What else takes time?

bob charles

Username John wrote: »

Hello all,

I am looking at my options as to what I will do next year with the farm, this is my last year in REPS.

I am not heavily stocked, so in short - the ground is not being used as efficiently as it could be.

The conclusion I am coming to is that I would be better off letting some of it, and keeping the bit around the house which I would be able to manage.

I am not sure I want to go down the long term lease just yet.
I have heard lads mention an 11 month lease? Is this the other alternative?
When do these normally run from & to?

How would this short term lease affect my SFP? Do I still claim it, even though I wouldn't be farming the land for 2014? (well, not for 11 months of 2014)
Do shorter lease terms exist, or should I just look at selling two cuts of silage?

In terms of a long term lease - how would this affect SFP? Or does the SFP go with the land, and it is factored into the rental price?
(I assume I lose the SFP over time, if I am not actively farming the land?)

Anything else I should be aware of when letting ground? (either short or long term)

Like I say, just looking at it as an option right now...

Thanks for reading.

Regarding the SFP

say you currently farm 50 ac (20ha) with a SFP of 5,000 (20 entitlements @ 250each). You decide to rent out 30ac (12ha). you will be able to lease 12 entitlements along with the land 12ha. the renter will recieve the SFP (3,000) and pay in turn pay you rent plus what ever price you agree for the entitlements

Usual rules when selecting a tenant to farm it. If you are not confident of just a handshake when striking the deal look for someone else. I have never yet signed a contract and only once had a problem with leasing land where the landlord died and the new owner had other ideas.

Sam Kade

Username John wrote: »

What happens to the SFP in this case?

Not that it matters too much in real terms - you'd swear I had a massive SFP But I am keen to understand what happens.
Will it go to the farmer renting the land?

The farmer renting gets the sfp but he must pay you back the value of it, that's how it works around here.

sea12

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

I'm a glutton for punishment so my thinking would be to increase. Saying that I don't have a baby on the way.

I would examine exactly what is taking your time and try to find solutions to those issues. My breed don't suffer many feet problems, but they're not a breed I'd have on land as good as yours. If you're turning up a lot of sheep, or spending time waiting by the side of a footbath well, I look at it this way - Money spent can be made again, time can't. I won't tell you to change breed, up to you to weigh the pro's and con's of them. Maybe there's a strain of suffolk with less foot problems than others, I don't know. I'll go against myself now and say would a maternal breed suit you a bit better for the time being, you're all lowland right? You could stock back up with suffolks again another time.

Dosing. What sort of facilities have you? Are you catching each lamb in a pen then dosing them then refilling a gun each time? Or do you have a race, and automatic gun and a drum of dose on your back? For worms, weigh your heaviest three or four then lash it into them. Can't, AFAIK, harm them with an overdose of worm dose.

Weighing lambs yeah, got me there. Only thing that holds me up doing that is the time it takes the digital scale to decide on an exact weight. I still prefer it to a clock with the amount of jumping my lambs do in the crate, it'd never settle. How often do you weigh them, are you doing too much of it?

What else takes time?

Your quite similar to myself john. Work full time in a time consuming job. Was always able to manage just about with the help of the father and working weekends. But since we had a child and also another one due in January it's hard to fit things in.

I reduced numbers to 70 last year but to be honest it was nearly as much work as 120. Like yourself I enjoy them and have no intention of quitting altogether. I think around 50 would be a manageable number. Anything below that u still have all the work. It doesn't take much longer to dose 70 than 40. Once you have them gathered up its most of the work.

The one thing I did invest in was a decent sheep race and equipment. It makes it allot easier. However I increased numbers a bit this year again. Have the land for them. Do sell a bit of extra hay as well but like to keep an active farm.

So overall you will have this debate several times. Good luck with the decision and the new baby

1chippy

Sam Kade wrote: »

The farmer renting gets the sfp but he must pay you back the value of it, that's how it works around here.

Is that the case everywhere. ive land rented with entitlements and ive never been approached about paying over the entitlements.

bob charles

1chippy wrote: »

Is that the case everywhere. ive land rented with entitlements and ive never been approached about paying over the entitlements.

but are the entitlements in your name or the landlords name? are you leasing the entitlement for €0 ? Usually its a large % of total value that goes to land owner.

Farmer Pudsey

Usernamejohn you have to decide are you a farmer or wat.

The reason I say this if you rent it is a downward slope. When I began this game a few years ago, I was nearly 25 years and a totally different land type away from where I orginated from. I was advised to rent it.

I did not buy it to rent it so I f##king farmed it. It is rough it is tough but maybe you are in the wrong system. I had reps and it is gone so I think I upped my game. If you are working you have the tax system on your side to invest into it. This is the whole game with farming keep investing in both time and money. However do not become a slave to it. Sheds and handling faculities are all the game if you are working. There is no such thing as a part time farmer. Wheather it is sheep or cattle you need to be able to handle them fast and furious.

JohnBoy

as you know john we're in a similar boat, but not living on the land.

we have some land on conacre (11 month) we have some leased out, and some we're selling silage off.

random collection of thoughts.....

right now, selling silage and then aftergrass is viewed as farming, not renting. this opinion could change with the new CAP, it's a grey enough one at the moment, especially if you're selling both cuts and the aftergrass to the one man (what's the difference between that and renting?)


if you rent for 11 months then as said SFP has to be transferred with the land and is normally repaid to some degree (up to 100%) by the tenant. you cant keep the sfp in your name if you're not farming that land.


Bob's attitude to leases is lovely, and with some tenants it works, with others if you dont have something signed you'll get ridden bareback. you may still get ridden with a lease but it gives you some peace of mind at least. (maybe false peace of mind) Then again you get the right tenants and it's fine. our field on conacre we agree a rent sometime in may most years, it'll already have been grazed and probably fertilised for silage at that stage but both parties know there'll be no bother so it's fine to work on that basis.


Selling silage can be done to any number of levels. We're probably at the most involved extreme, reseeding, spraying, improving the land, access, gaps, fertilising and liming well etc. But we're doing it for two reasons. firstly we're charging a fairly premium price on the market and secondly that's the land we'll stock first when we move down. (anyone want to buy a house in tipp?)

The opposite end of the spectrum is take your hundred an acre and let the buyer hopefully fertilise it a bit and hopefully draw away the bales on time. You'll actually have more cash in your arse pocket with that approach, but do it long term and you'll be left with nowt.


The other implication is tax. if you're paying higher rate tax in particular from your day job. Conacre income (and the SFP being paid back to you with it) is rent, and there's much less you can offset against rent than you can offset against farming income.

If you lease it out the income can be tax free up to a certain threshold, but I think you need to be over 40 to qualify for that. Maybe mr lakill could give us some info in this area.



like i said at the start, some random ramblings

1chippy

bob charles wrote: »

but are the entitlements in your name or the landlords name? are you leasing the entitlement for €0 ? Usually its a large % of total value that goes to land owner.

i just agreed a price per acre. he then came with the transfer of entitlements form. i have the ground a few years now and i was never asked or it was never mentioned for any extra for the entitlements. we have a lease drawn up and all seems good so i must be on to a winner.