Water softeners

jethrothe2nd

The water in Maynooth (and presumably other areas of Kildare) is very hard. I'm thinking of getting a water softener installed to try and protect the life cycle of the washing machine, dishwasher, kettle etc. Wondering if anyone else has one installed and if it has proven worth it?

L1011

My parents washing machine is >15 years old in Maynooth, dishwasher similar and kettles aren't dear. I doubt there is any return on a full-scale softener on the running costs alone let alone the capital investment.

Joe Public

Compared to places where hard water causes problems within a few years the water hardness in north Kildare is not a big problem. I purchased my washing machine in 1983 and have it running in Celbridge since 1990 and it has never needed a new heating element, a few other bits needed replacing ok but not due to the hardness of the water. Domestic machines don't last as long these days and often end up being replaced for reasons other than the heating element in less than 20 years.
My advice, you won't save by buying a water softener.
Another thing, tea and coffee does not taste as good with softened water.

ronaneire

The water in and around Maynooth is not hard as the other posters have already mentioned. Also you shouldn't be putting softened water that contains salt into a kettle or drinking it.

jethrothe2nd

Thanks for the feedback - sounds like the water isn't as hard as I thought it was - just seemed like it from where I lived before Maynooth.

Moonbeam

I lived in Balbriggan before the water there was terrible so to me the water here is quite soft but in reality it is hard water.
Alot of people get the systems put in in the kitchen and there are a few different ways in which they work,if you have a quick google you should find the different types.

aah yes

Many Maynooth households will definitely experience to a greater or lesser extent a noticeable level of lime scaling causing premature havoc and destruction of household appliances and plumbing ...

Okay, so, for a precise explanation of whats needed lets review ...

"The water in Maynooth (and presumably other areas of Kildare) is very hard." [an opinion from a worthy soul of Maynooth experiencing water hardness for themselves]


http://kildare.ie/countycouncil/waterservices/WaterSupply/WaterQuality/

From the table of supplies in the county area, Maynooth falls in the second category of the "Leixlip Regional" scheme.

The source ... is classed as - Surface Water - treated at Fingal Co Co WTW Leixlip (sourced from the river Liffey)


Okay, from regularly treating surface waters in Galway for example Lough Corrib via the Terryland Treatment Works and many other naturally sourced surface waters (i.e. lakes, rivers, streams) I know surface waters to be typically 100 to 200 mg/l Total Hardness (calcium carbonate).


The Irish EPA, (Environmental Protection Agency) classify "Moderately Hard" waters as ... 150 to 200 mg/L CaCO3 and "Hard" waters as ... 201 to 300 mg/L based on "The Hardness of Irish Drinking Waters" - A Simple Guide based on Conductivity Data - from their printed edition in 2000 (priced €3.81).



Around the world, water hardness bands are classified differently, for various factors and reasons of interest, for example Kildare County Council list "Moderately Hard" as ... 151-250 mg/l CaCO3 as confirmed in the link below ...

http://www.kildare.ie/CountyCouncil/WaterServices/NewRiverBarrowWaterSupplyforKildare/NewBarrowWaterSupplyforKildare-FrequentlyAskedQuestions/

... you can find this "hardness table" just around 20 paragraphs down !



Then below the 20 paragraphs is a table of the local supplies and their water hardness levels ...

Maynooth - sourced from River Liffey - Leixlip is listed as 180 mg/L CaCO3.


Now we are getting somewhere, the plot thickens ...


Depending on other factors such as pH, Alkalinity and temperature along with water hardness (and often other small factors usually also conductivity), the "True Hardness" or "Potential Scaling Index" is more accurately classified by using the LSI formula or Langelier Saturation Index method of calculation, as can be found on a handy site such as Lenntech ...

http://www.lenntech.com/calculators/langelier/index/langelier.htm


What the LSI factoring method helps out on, is the actual true limescale scoring value for a given set value of hardness. What this means is that on a scale of 0 to 5, if the LSI is say 0 (zero), then the given hardness value should act pretty much like its listed value, so 200 mg/L of hardness acts like 200 mg/L.

However if pH is a lot higher, also Alkalinity, yet the temperature of water is quite chilly, you can accelerate the LSI value up a few points from zero to 1 or 2 even 3, 4 or 5.

If you get LSI values much higher, then 200 mg/L water hardness can easily act like 300 mg/L or more.



Then, think about this for a minute ...

If a household is using 50,000 litres of water per year containing 200 mg/L of water hardness, and we know 1000 mg (milligrams) is equal to 1 gram, and 1000 grams is equal to 1 kilogram, then of course 50,000 litres x 200 mg (per litre) = 10 kilograms.

Houses using as little as 50,000 litres per year or 50 cubic metres, will in effect be bringing 10 kilograms of limescaling water hardness in the form of calcium carbonate in through their pipes, equal to 10 nicely sized bricks of limestone, potentially coating the insides of pipes and water heaters.

Of course most of the water will pass through the household and hard water passing out the other end as still hard water, but leaving its signature of hard lime scaling on pipes and general plumbing, heaters, tanks and so on - depending on the LSI value more so or less so depending on its scaling potential, (and depending how hot water becomes - hot water over 62 degrees C starts to precipitate limescale as a hard coating inside pipes and over heating elements.)

Now heavy water users up over the 200,000 litres per year (and I know many [hundreds]) and those with hidden leaks in drippy toilet ballcocks, can easily be clocking up 2,000,000 litres of water per year without a water meter or bills to tell them, (I have seen a good few - getting on for a dozen so far), so the escalation of incoming limescale as calcium carbonate can reach easily over 100 kilograms or more especially if water hardness is at 400 mg/l like it is in most parts of Galway and people are heavy water users or have undetected leaks.


So I await those lucid arguments from any boards users who can convince me that in Maynooth for all households and water users, that Maynooth water is as pure as the gentle rain from the heavens, and no limescale exists in those abodes !

L1011

Nobodies going to argue that it's soft, but 25+ years living here shows a softener is a false economy. You will never reclaim installation let alone running costs.

ronaneire

gws wrote: »

So I await those lucid arguments from any boards users who can convince me that in Maynooth for all households and water users, that Maynooth water is as pure as the gentle rain from the heavens, and no limescale exists in those abodes !

The water in Maynooth is not hard where you can justify the cost of having to install a water softener.

Joe Public

Experience is the best indicator and the while the treated water from The Liffey is not soft it doesn't have a hardness issue that justifies valid reasons for the use of a water softener in domestic cases. A water softener will introduce extra sodium into the softened water which is not always a good choice for those trying to reduce sodium in their diet.

aah yes

If the hardness level is around 200 mg/L or 200 ppm which is classed as "hard" universally, then whatever area you are in, if you see scale build up in the kettle and showers in a short period then that is a good guess at the scaling potential.

Although Langelier Index values vary from water source to water source, house to house, and also the amount of scale you bring into the household through water usage (you could use three times the amount of water than the house next door - so multiplying the scaling effect), all things vary, so any given household has a good idea of their own scaling they experience.

Witco

We are about to install our 3rd shower in 5 years and our plumber recommended we get a softener fitted. Has anyone got a recommendation as to which company is best?

Stavros Murphy

Witco wrote: »

We are about to install our 3rd shower in 5 years and our plumber recommended we get a softener fitted. Has anyone got a recommendation as to which company is best?

Yeah, none. Spent 4k on a softener for a client, good as it gets for the size and it eats 12 bags of salt a week. Still limescale too...I'd give it a miss tbh.

aah yes

Clearly if anyone charges 4k for a water softener, because of the irrational pricing madness, it would be assumed just as easily the softener is not correctly set or if metered, there has been no follow up to track household leak issues (toilet ball float valves) and so you have the astronomical 12 bags of salt situation. (per week / month ?)

12 bags of salt per year is astronomical these days for high spec efficient systems, when 4 bags per year is the norm for a family of 4 on average hardness waters, and average 250 litre per day water usage.

The best systems made by Clack Corporation are designed to work efficiently for 30 to 40 years, costing under €1000 installed, running on 4 bags of salt a year, €4 of water per year, and €1 of electric. There are many factory trained Clack installers around, just google away.


The astronomic loony tunes 4k / 12 bag scenario is "out of the park" nonsense on stilts, barking mad bonkers. Any clown footed tousled trousered tramp associated with that job should be wheeled down the driveway in a sack truck and left out for the bin lorry.

Stavros Murphy

aah yes wrote: »

Clearly if anyone charges 4k for a water softener, because of the irrational pricing madness, it would be assumed just as easily the softener is not correctly set or if metered, there has been no follow up to track household leak issues (toilet ball float valves) and so you have the astronomical 12 bags of salt situation. (per week / month ?)

12 bags of salt per year is astronomical these days for high spec efficient systems, when 4 bags per year is the norm for a family of 4 on average hardness waters, and average 250 litre per day water usage.

The best systems made by Clack Corporation are designed to work efficiently for 30 to 40 years, costing under €1000 installed, running on 4 bags of salt a year, €4 of water per year, and €1 of electric. There are many factory trained Clack installers around, just google away.


The astronomic loony tunes 4k / 12 bag scenario is "out of the park" nonsense on stilts, barking mad bonkers. Any clown footed tousled trousered tramp associated with that job should be wheeled down the driveway in a sack truck and left out for the bin lorry.

It's an office block consuming thousands of liters of water a day. Mr Expert. And it's 12 bags a week. At least. And 4k was a bargain, as it happens. Still crap though. Big smile.

Redsoxfan

Anyone in Maynooth use salt in their dishwasher for hard water?

L1011

The salt in the all in one tablets (found Aldi Magnum far superior to Finish) is sufficient for me

keithonroll1

It is best to get a water test done to know how hard the water is. There is no point of going for a softening system if the water is already soft. While it may seem as if water softeners are an unnecessary expense, however, it can significantly save the appliances and their maintenance costs and prove to an investment in the longer run.

Joe Public

keithonroll1 wrote: »

It is best to get a water test done to know how hard the water is. There is no point of going for a softening system if the water is already soft. While it may seem as if water softeners are an unnecessary expense, however, it can significantly save the appliances and their maintenance costs and prove to an investment in the longer run.

Your kettle, over time, will tell you how hard the water is.
If there is not a noticeable white fur deposited around the element or bottom of the kettle then the water is not hard, at least not hard enough to be worrying about softeners.

Hard water is nicer to drink and cook with but not as good as soft water for washing.

The water in Celbridge is only slightly hard ( very technical )