Forgiveness?

AvonEnniskerry

Ok so I'm not particularly religious but I attended church the other day to enquire about getting my daughter christened. During the sermon the minister spoke about forgiveness. Fair enough. I listened for a while before the thought struck me. Why does he preach about forgiveness, surely he should preach that no wrong doing should be done in the first place... For example he said maybe your partner had an affair. Forgiveness allows you to move on...
I just thought what a load of bs. Surely your partner shouldn't be doing anything that will knowingly hurt you in the first place and then there wouldn't be the need for forgiveness.
I'm no saint but I wouldn't hurt anybody the way I've been hurt in the past.
Why should I forgive and let someone who wronged me off the hook. I can't just forget the things that have hurt me in the past so why should they be allowed off scot free...

antiskeptic

AvonEnniskerry wrote: »

Ok so I'm not particularly religious but I attended church the other day to enquire about getting my daughter christened. During the sermon the minister spoke about forgiveness. Fair enough. I listened for a while before the thought struck me. Why does he preach about forgiveness, surely he should preach that no wrong doing should be done in the first place... For example he said maybe your partner had an affair. Forgiveness allows you to move on...

In it's simplest form, forgiveness attempts to deal with the world as it is, not as it should be

I just thought what a load of bs. Surely your partner shouldn't be doing anything that will knowingly hurt you in the first place and then there wouldn't be the need for forgiveness.

Shouldn't. But what if they do?

I'm no saint..

Which is another way of saying that you do things that hurt others isn't it? You might not hurt in the way others have hurt you (in your own estimation) but the fact that you hurt others nonetheless indicate the place for forgiveness in your own lift.

And it's recognizing that you need forgiveness at times (and what that might mean to you) which might open the way to you realising that you might forgive others and what it might mean to them

but I wouldn't hurt anybody the way I've been hurt in the past.
Why should I forgive and let someone who wronged me off the hook. I can't just forget the things that have hurt me in the past so why should they be allowed off scot free...

It's not so much forgetting it as it is making the decision that the other person doesn't get that which their wrong actions deserve from you. That you will give to them what you would like others to give to you.

Doing it because the alternatives: bitterness, anger, retribution perpetuate the damage. Both for you and them

Forgiveness has a way of healing all parties - at it's best. But the other party might not accept it, or might not care that you forgive. At least it can heal you in those instances.

Lapis lazuli

Forgiveness is not unconditional.

If we want to be forgiven for what we have done wrong, we must be willing to forgive others, be sorry for what we have done and be willing to make amends.

bbam

What about those who have done so much wrong against you that forgiveness just isn't an option?

How does that sit?

Benny_Cake

bbam wrote: »

What about those who have done so much wrong against you that forgiveness just isn't an option?

How does that sit?

Forgiveness is always an option, but it may not be an option that we wish to take. It certainly isn't easy, which is why I'd see the ability to forgive as being a grace given by a greater power.

Forgiving others has a practical benefit, too: it helps us overcome bitterness and to put past hurts behind us and get on with our lives. It isn't easy though, but then life isn't easy.

tommy2bad

“Holding onto anger is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die.” attributed to the Buddha, although I think what he actually said was "I never said that"

We don't forgive because it's our duty to others but because it helps us. You owe no one forgiveness, they have to ask for it. It's your gift to give it or refuse it. The thing is what are the options? Hold on to the resentment and hate? Nurse grievances until you are the one with the problem?
Better to forgive and move on.
Without the option of forgiveness we are caught in a revenge cycle, an eye for an eye and so on.

Of course it would be better if we did what was right all the time but we are not perfect and with the best intentions we can cause harm, never mind with evil intentions. People change and recognizing that is important both for the possibility it offers ourselves and the hope it offers everyone.

AvonEnniskerry

Of Course I have done wrong, as a child you constantly make mistakes. As an adult I have wronged those I don't care about so therefore do not seek forgiveness from them. My problem is with those that betray you. The people you trust who lie and deceive you. Mistakes can be forgiven. But what happens if it happens more than once despite previously expressing your feelings about something. Should this too be forgiven and if so how will they learn right from wrong?

Should you also forgive the ppl who do unspeakable things. What if it was your family it affected.would you still have the capacity to forgive?

antiskeptic

AvonEnniskerry wrote: »

Of Course I have done wrong, as a child you constantly make mistakes.

Wrong and mistakes - those are two different things (although politicians caught and forced to confess would have you think otherwise)

Wrong: doing something driven at root by selfish motivation. Where the knowledge that you will be negatively affecting another/others is known about but suppressed so as not to be allowed to surface and get in the way of what you want to do.

It's preventing ourselves from being exposed to the full extent our our selfish motivation that allows our selfish motivation to flourish. You've only got to look at someone else acting selfishly to see how ugly it is. Clear as day - when another is doing it. Not so, when we do it.


Mistake: doing something which hasn't selfish motivation at root but which nonetheless hurts another/other

As an adult I have wronged those I don't care about so therefore do not seek forgiveness from them.

Do you mean to say you don't care that you hurt people you don't care about? Just want to clarify what you mean here.

My problem is with those that betray you.

Although sensing you're coming from the perspective of one severely wronged by someone you care about, it's valid to ask you about folk who you care about and who've you've wronged. I assume you would agree that you've done this? If so, and even though the scale of your wronging others who you care about might not compare to how you'e been wronged, then you at least have a model to work with. You can see it from the other perspective I mean..

The people you trust who lie and deceive you. Mistakes can be forgiven.

To differentiate: mistakes don't need forgiveness in the same sense as wrongs do. Mistakes need forgiveness at times of course (if the consequences are significant) but it's a different matter releasing somebody from consequences that weren't the result of selfishness. And consequences that were the result of selfishness.

But what happens if it happens more than once despite previously expressing your feelings about something. Should this too be forgiven and if so how will they learn right from wrong?

Forgiveness doesn't preclude your self-protecting. Neither does "Turn the other cheek" mean "keep on taking a slapping".

If a person, despite having it pointed out to them that their behaviour is a) causing you pain b) illegitimate in it's doing a) then you can by all means take measures to prevent reoccurance. You can take physical/emotional distance from them.

This doesn't prevent you forgiving them. And forgiving them doesn't necessarily mean dismantling this necessary distance.

Forgiveness isn't about business-as-usual. It's about your attitude to them. To give an example: a wife might run off with another man and the husband is hurt by this. His forgiving his wife doesn't necessarily mean that he takes her back but it does seek to understand the wifes perspective, to see his own part (if applicable) in the state of affairs, to appreciate what need in her (however skewed) drove her to do what she did and perhaps, take her back if the time ever becomes right. Take back without hold a sword over her head.

It's hugely difficult. But that's the kind of thing it tends to entail.

As a Christian, I wouldn't much hold out hope of me extending much by way of forgiveness were it not for the knife held to my own throat (in the most loving way):Christ forgave me. So very much.

I've not had huge tests since this dawned on me, it must be said.

Should you also forgive the ppl who do unspeakable things. What if it was your family it affected.would you still have the capacity to forgive?

Forgiveness isn't ever easy. In many circumstances it is, unless by the grace of God, impossible. It's would be, and often is, the my first port of call when I somehow realise that forgiveness (not letting off the hook) is beyond me. I ask God to allow it to happen in me...